Lumix S5ii + Godox trigger for OCF ?

[John Vickers]

John, why then would the flash work in burst mode with all the other contacts except the center one blocked off but won't when the other contacts are active?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I didn't design it. Why are you asking me?

To me, the flash behaviour seems more an example of evolution than intelligent design.

My S5iiX seems to flash only once in burst mode when all contacts are active, but works fine in burst (manual only) when only the center contact is active.

With what flash? is there an "x" over the burst mode icon on the display ?

...

I only have Godox flash stuff.

The behavior I get on S5M2 and S1[R] with Burst Speed = [H] is:

Single pin connection to hotshoe: Reduced burst speed. (10fps -> about 5fps, as discussed before).

TT685O on hotshoe: No bursts. Burst symbol on display has an "x" over it.

V1O on hotshoe (wireless off): Reduced burst speed. (10fps -> about 5fps).

XPro2O on hotshoe (standard hotshoe mode): 2.46 fps (previous measurement).

XPro2O on hotshoe (single-pin hotshoe mode): 5 fps.

...

PC-sync connector (available on S1

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only) to PC-sync input on flash: Full speed bursts with TT685O or AD200 or whatever.

PC-sync connector to PC-sync input on XPro2O wireless controller: Full speed bursts with TT685O or AD200 or whatever in wireless slave mode.

...

It's like the camera doesn't know how to handle an Oly/Panny specific flash when communicating with the flash with the camera in burst mode. "Maybe a firmware update will help".

From the different V1O behaviour with/without wireless transmission enabled, we can tell that there is some hotshoe communication between the camera and the flash that causes the burst rate to change.

With the TT685, we don't know if the problem of disabled burst shooting (or bracketing) is some failure of communication, or if the TT685 correctly communicates capabilities that the Panasonic camera does not like.

It might make little sense that a TT685 has capabilities as a wireless slave that it does not have when mounted on a hotshoe. But the Godox wireless protocol is controller->slave only. There is no return channel - that would be very slow and/or awkward to use. So a Godox wireless controller has no idea whether it is broadcasting to a TT350 or an AD600Pro2.

The MFT forums seem to say that V860III and V1O are the oldest Godox models that support burst shooting (and bracketing) with a flash connected to a Panasonic hotshoe.

See:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67485628

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4293558

A Panasonic S1

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behaves like a G9; S5 derivatives behave like a G9M2.

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The PC-sync port on S1

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has a very different circuit to the hotshoe centre pin:

The hotshoe centre pin circuitry is garden-variety low-voltage logic interface circuitry with some standard tweaks because the range of possible signalling voltage is a bit wide.

The PC-sync port on S1

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(and G9 etc) is designed to work with old mains-powered strobes with high trigger voltages (up to 400V, either polarity). It would be possible, but complicated & expensive to detect the connection of a strobe to the PC-sync port.

...

If you get an X3 controller, to get 5fps flash bursts you probably need to put the controller in "single pin mode". Which is manual power setting only: no TTL, no HSS.

 

[Joe Lynch]

John--

Thanks for the detailed information. I need to experiment/try more later this week. And go back and read the older posts one more time!

I think you nailed it here:

To me, the flash behaviour seems more an example of evolution than intelligent design.

What I have to fiddle with are two S5iiX's, one G9ii, one OM-1i, V860Oi, two Godox O triggers, one old, one new, and a Meike 520 flash for Oly/P. I'm in M burst speed mode with mechanical shutter. I haven't measured the burst rate with the flash gear, but all these flashes/triggers will at least fire multiple times when the the non-center contacts are taped off. With the contacts active, I get one flash and the X with all of the flashes. I think the G9ii behaves like the S5iiX, and the OM-1i works perfectly in burst mode with all contacts active with any of the flashes/triggers, but I don't recall at what burst rate.

I am probably seeing the 5 fps rate with my gear, same as you, and not 10, but was so happy to have anything that I declared victory too quickly.

I'll experiment some more after I recover from Little League baseball season, this weekend. I want to do some macro work with bursts and flash and put the 70-200 in the bag and let my right wrist and shutter finger heal.

Joe

 

[Joe Lynch]

The Godox X3 trigger works fine on my S5iiX body in burst mode with no need for a shim to isolate the rear three contacts. Just put the trigger in the hot shoe and blast away. The trigger seems to pair with any of my Flashpoint or Godox flashes that worked with the older triggers.

The small and light Meike 320 with the shim is still my choice for bugs and vegetation stacks in the field, but the Godox X3 trigger will be great in the home studio with the off camera flashes.

Joe L

Here's the catch--I need to see if the resulting burst rate with the X3 is 10 fps or 5 fps and matches the camera burst rate setting. If the burst rate is slowed when using the flash with the new trigger, that is a remaining limitation. But at least the new X3 trigger will allow burst mode with flash to function on the Lumix bodies.

 

[Off The Mark]

The PC-sync port on S1

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(and G9 etc) is designed to work with old mains-powered strobes with high trigger voltages (up to 400V, either polarity).

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Any idea if the max flash sync shutter speed on the S1/R/H is higher going through the PC-sync port than the single-pin hotshoe trigger?

 

[John Vickers]

The PC-sync port on S1

---

(and G9 etc) is designed to work with old mains-powered strobes with high trigger voltages (up to 400V, either polarity).

---

Any idea if the max flash sync shutter speed on the S1/R/H is higher going through the PC-sync port than the single-pin hotshoe trigger?

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Yes I do have an idea.

<Tumbleweed>

It makes no remotely meaningful difference to the usable sync speed.

The hotshoe trigger goes off about 3.2μs before the PC-sync trigger. The timing of the leading edge of the trigger pulse is the important bit.

The PC-sync trigger pulse is 3.00ms long; the hotshoe trigger pulse is 2.00ms long. I have no idea why they are different. I use a roughly 50μs pulse if I want to trigger Godox stuff with random electronics, and that works fine for me.

This is on S1.

You now know some of the most abstruse and obscure things you could possibly know about a camera.

A 3.2μs difference becomes interesting if you are using a global shutter camera at "1/80000" shutter speed.

By way of comparison, the delay from PC-sync asserted to flash trigger pulse is about 28μs (varies +/- 1-2 μs) on the Godox flashes I have.

...

My problem with X-sync speed on Lumix S cameras is that the maximum X-sync speeds are barely (S1

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), or just not realistically (S5 derivatives) usable. They are set for marketing reasons. So I want a menu option that lets me reduce the X-sync speed by a click. Like I can do on Nikon.

On S5 derivatives ("S1R II", "S1 II" etc.), we'd be better off with HSS at "1/250" than with a regular flash pulse.

 

[Off The Mark]

My problem with X-sync speed on Lumix S cameras is that the maximum X-sync speeds are barely (S1

---

), or just not realistically (S5 derivatives) usable. They are set for marketing reasons. So I want a menu option that lets me reduce the X-sync speed by a click. Like I can do on Nikon.

On S5 derivatives ("S1R II", "S1 II" etc.), we'd be better off with HSS at "1/250" than with a regular flash pulse.

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Thanks for the info, and the summation.

Yeah, on my first-gen S5 I often end up with a black bar when shooting at a (displayed) 1/200th of a second. Kind of frustrating, so I sometime find I am hauling out my bigger lgihts (Godox AD600) and a three-stop ND, or a Circular Polarizer, or BOTH to get the flash sync speed down.

Guess I should pick up a Nikon D70 for around $50 and use it with my single-pin flash triggers to get them 1/4000th sync speeds!!!

 

[mjoshi]

okay here is update after my third wedding shoot with S5ii - specifically for the Reception part with new X3 trigger from Godox. It is not something that I'd recommend for Off Camera Flash photography part - there is noticeable lag between pressing a shutter and firing of OCF. And Especially since I've Sony A7RV as my second body shooting same time - I've zero issues with my A7RV - which works perfectly well in exact same setup of X3 trigger with AD200 + AD300 combos as OCF.

 

[Off The Mark]

okay here is update after my third wedding shoot with S5ii - specifically for the Reception part with new X3 trigger from Godox. It is not something that I'd recommend for Off Camera Flash photography part - there is noticeable lag between pressing a shutter and firing of OCF. And Especially since I've Sony A7RV as my second body shooting same time - I've zero issues with my A7RV - which works perfectly well in exact same setup of X3 trigger with AD200 + AD300 combos as OCF.

Thanks for the report. Good to know about the issues.

 

[John Vickers]

My problem with X-sync speed on Lumix S cameras is that the maximum X-sync speeds are barely (S1

---

), or just not realistically (S5 derivatives) usable. They are set for marketing reasons. So I want a menu option that lets me reduce the X-sync speed by a click. Like I can do on Nikon.

On S5 derivatives ("S1R II", "S1 II" etc.), we'd be better off with HSS at "1/250" than with a regular flash pulse.

---

Yeah, on my first-gen S5 I often end up with a black bar when shooting at a (displayed) 1/200th of a second.

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Are you sure that you mean "1/200", and not "1/250" ?

Is this with EFCS or mechanical shutter ?

I've only seen a black bar when using wireless triggering at "1/250" on S5/S5M2X.

A black bar means the second curtain is starting to cover the sensor before there is significant output from the flash.

For even flash illumination at an even color temperature, the flash pulse needs to start and finish while the entire sensor is exposed: after the first shutter curtain has passed the end of the sensor, and before the second curtain starts to cover the sensor.

The time available is: (True exposure time) - (Shutter travel time)

With a 10kHz strobe, I measured a shutter travel time of 3.85ms for my S5 and 3.74ms for my S5M2X. I don't know if that represents an improvement in S5M2X, or sample variation.

At "1/250" and " "1/200" that gives:

• 0.052ms [!!] and 1.067ms on S5
• 0.169ms [!] and 1.185ms on S5M2

For an artifact-free flash pulse. Those figures are probably +/- about 8μs.

But provided the flash can trigger and get up to a useful output level in that window there shouldn't be a black bar, even if the flash exposure is uneven.

It occurs to me that someone tasked with implementing the camera flash trigger timing, with an emphasis on avoiding complaints about black bands, would be motivated to issue the centre pin trigger signal perhaps about 70μs before the first curtain reaches the end of the sensor. Kindof "hypersync" by dead reckoning. I get the 70μs from about 30μs from centre pin trigger to flash tube trigger pulse, and about 40μs for the flash tube to light up a bit.

Ideally, the camera would ask the flash or wireless controller what timing the camera should use for the centre pin trigger. Sony certainly does this on A9M3, with recent Sony flash units.

Kind of frustrating, so I sometime find I am hauling out my bigger lights (Godox AD600) and a three-stop ND, or a Circular Polarizer, or BOTH to get the flash sync speed down.

 

[John Vickers]

okay here is update after my third wedding shoot with S5ii - specifically for the Reception part with new X3 trigger from Godox. It is not something that I'd recommend for Off Camera Flash photography part - there is noticeable lag between pressing a shutter and firing of OCF.

["OCF" was new to me]

Is this TTL ?

The AD200 & AD300 are in fixed locations ?

I almost always use manual flash, and with manual flash I haven't noticed any problem. But manual flash is not always the best - or even a good - solution.

I tried comparing S5M2 with XPro2+AD200Pro or V1 against Nikon D7200 (a DSLR) with TT685 or TT685 controlling AD200Pro.

TTL does seem more responsive on D7200 (though I seem to need about +2.5EV TTL adjustment). TTL exposure with S5M2 seems good, with no adjustments.

And Especially since I've Sony A7RV as my second body shooting same time - I've zero issues with my A7RV - which works perfectly well in exact same setup of X3 trigger with AD200 + AD300 combos as OCF.

 

[mjoshi]

okay here is update after my third wedding shoot with S5ii - specifically for the Reception part with new X3 trigger from Godox. It is not something that I'd recommend for Off Camera Flash photography part - there is noticeable lag between pressing a shutter and firing of OCF.

["OCF" was new to me]

Is this TTL ?

The AD200 & AD300 are in fixed locations ?

I almost always use manual flash, and with manual flash I haven't noticed any problem. But manual flash is not always the best - or even a good - solution.

I tried comparing S5M2 with XPro2+AD200Pro or V1 against Nikon D7200 (a DSLR) with TT685 or TT685 controlling AD200Pro.

TTL does seem more responsive on D7200 (though I seem to need about +2.5EV TTL adjustment). TTL exposure with S5M2 seems good, with no adjustments.

And Especially since I've Sony A7RV as my second body shooting same time - I've zero issues with my A7RV - which works perfectly well in exact same setup of X3 trigger with AD200 + AD300 combos as OCF.

No everything is set in Manual - AD200 & AD300 at 1/64 & 1/128 power, this is for reception lighting so lights are on stand in corners - there is noticeable lag between consecutive frames - when shooting at SH or SM drive mode. And other interesting thing is same AD200 & AD300 with same manual settings work just flawlessly on A7RV

 

[John Vickers]

okay here is update after my third wedding shoot with S5ii - specifically for the Reception part with new X3 trigger from Godox. It is not something that I'd recommend for Off Camera Flash photography part - there is noticeable lag between pressing a shutter and firing of OCF.

["OCF" was new to me]

Is this TTL ?

The AD200 & AD300 are in fixed locations ?

I almost always use manual flash, and with manual flash I haven't noticed any problem. But manual flash is not always the best - or even a good - solution.

I tried comparing S5M2 with XPro2+AD200Pro or V1 against Nikon D7200 (a DSLR) with TT685 or TT685 controlling AD200Pro.

TTL does seem more responsive on D7200 (though I seem to need about +2.5EV TTL adjustment). TTL exposure with S5M2 seems good, with no adjustments.

And Especially since I've Sony A7RV as my second body shooting same time - I've zero issues with my A7RV - which works perfectly well in exact same setup of X3 trigger with AD200 + AD300 combos as OCF.

No everything is set in Manual - AD200 & AD300 at 1/64 & 1/128 power, this is for reception lighting so lights are on stand in corners - there is noticeable lag between consecutive frames

So shutter lag isn't your problem, but shot-to-shot delay in burst modes is a problem, right ?

- when shooting at SH or SM drive mode.

I guess you mean "H" and "M". SH is an electronic shutter mode.

Have I got that right ?

And other interesting thing is same AD200 & AD300 with same manual settings work just flawlessly on A7RV

Yes, Panasonic flash is kinda cranky.

If you're shooting with manual flash power settings, set the X3O controller in "single-pin" "legacy" mode. As suggested above. If the X3 behaves like the XPro2, that should give you 4 point something fps.

If you are currently using mechanical shutter, using EFCS will reduce the shutter lag and improve the burst rate (a little).

...

This is slightly Off-Topic, but what modifiers do you use on the AD200 & AD300 ?

And for AD200, what flash head do you use ?

 

[mjoshi]

okay here is update after my third wedding shoot with S5ii - specifically for the Reception part with new X3 trigger from Godox. It is not something that I'd recommend for Off Camera Flash photography part - there is noticeable lag between pressing a shutter and firing of OCF.

["OCF" was new to me]

Is this TTL ?

The AD200 & AD300 are in fixed locations ?

I almost always use manual flash, and with manual flash I haven't noticed any problem. But manual flash is not always the best - or even a good - solution.

I tried comparing S5M2 with XPro2+AD200Pro or V1 against Nikon D7200 (a DSLR) with TT685 or TT685 controlling AD200Pro.

TTL does seem more responsive on D7200 (though I seem to need about +2.5EV TTL adjustment). TTL exposure with S5M2 seems good, with no adjustments.

And Especially since I've Sony A7RV as my second body shooting same time - I've zero issues with my A7RV - which works perfectly well in exact same setup of X3 trigger with AD200 + AD300 combos as OCF.

No everything is set in Manual - AD200 & AD300 at 1/64 & 1/128 power, this is for reception lighting so lights are on stand in corners - there is noticeable lag between consecutive frames

So shutter lag isn't your problem, but shot-to-shot delay in burst modes is a problem, right ?

I think we are talking about same thing - when drive mode is put in multi frame - you can see that there is noticeable delay between shutter press and actual flash firing to the point where you may miss the shot.

- when shooting at SH or SM drive mode.

I guess you mean "H" and "M". SH is an electronic shutter mode.

Have I got that right ?

Yes it is in mechanical mode H & M

And other interesting thing is same AD200 & AD300 with same manual settings work just flawlessly on A7RV

Yes, Panasonic flash is kinda cranky.

If you're shooting with manual flash power settings, set the X3O controller in "single-pin" "legacy" mode. As suggested above. If the X3 behaves like the XPro2, that should give you 4 point something fps.

If you are currently using mechanical shutter, using EFCS will reduce the shutter lag and improve the burst rate (a little).

...

I will give it a shot and see if there is any improvements - I love the SOOC colors from Lumix compared to Sony - but if in the end it cannot function under certain aspects then its of no use.

This is slightly Off-Topic, but what modifiers do you use on the AD200 & AD300 ?

And for AD200, what flash head do you use ?

For AD300 I put on grid to bring light tighter - For AD200 it is just the fresnel with grid from Godox.