Lack of L-mount Activity on Forums?

[Pete_W]

OMDS is not limited by corporate priorities of a conglomerate with many layers like Panasonic. It does not appear that Panasonic will allow low end M43 to be developed. It is GH only which means a new body every 4 years with maybe some variants along the way (GH5s).

I am not sure Panasonic was that specific about its intentions with M43, as per my response to you in another thread. However, I don't really know so you may be right.

"Little" OMDS launched two cameras last year. Panasonic launched one across both mounts.

To be fair, the OM-1 was developed under Olympus and released after they divested the company to JIP. The OM-5 released by JIP is a warm make-over and re-badging of the EM5-Mk3.

It remains to be seen whether OMDS has the resources to continue with the type of major developments that the old Olympus was able to achieve by using the resources of its profitable medical instrument business. They may drift away to being more like another JIP brand, Sony Vaio - low investment in R&D, me-too products that are not leading edge. Time will tell.

It definitely was a quiet year for Panasonic in 2022 - they released the GH6 and two lenses. It will be interesting to see what 2023 looks like for them. At least they are starting early.

Sigma bodies are rather niche. Leica bodies are beyond the realm of Lumix shoppers. There is tremendous middle ground for Panasonic to occupy but L-mount is a distant 4th among FF market share. They need something to attract from Canon, Sony, Nikon user base but playing catch up with technology like PDAF is not the way.

But I would say that it was a necessary first step.

--
Pete

 

[da7329]

Maybe he is a payed fan boy? Outlandish claims he comes up with.



DA

 

[Pete_W]

L-mount is a small corner of the FF camera world compared with other brands/mounts.

That said, I think this forum is great! The members here are knowledgeable and helpful, the posts are interesting, and the volume of posts is easy to keep up with.

Compare this with the MFT forum where the volume of posts every day is quite high but most of it is puerile. It's like wading through treacle trying to find anything useful. Great place to go if you want to argue for the sake of it.

I suppose it is best to be quiet and intelligent than busy and puerile. Does this suggest that the L-Mount forum will be less attractive when the mount system becomes more popular?

I do think that it's a possibility. The bigger the crowd, the more likely there will be bad behaviour.

The MFT forum is truly a basket case - overwhelmingly an Olympus forum where self-satisfied members assert brand superiority over everything else, including high-level FF cameras. They think no other brand is better and anyone who questions this is rounded on by the usual suspects who are listed in the Top Posters sidebar. Posts about equivalence usually set off a major bout of paranoia until the thread is locked.

Edit: as an example of the point that Olympus is better than everything else, here is a post just in the last few hours that epitomises the default attitude:

My Testing The Sony A7R5 Against the OM-1 is OVER. The winner is: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)

It must do your head in having to moderate that forum!

That's actually hilarious and the poster makes himself look like a pompous #$#@.

It's since become even more hilarious than it first appeared!

I was reading the comments below the final Sony A7R5 review and noticed that this same forum member had posted that he'd now purchased the Sony. The same guy who said that "Olympus was the winner" over the A7RV! So he bought the Sony to try it out, decided the OM-1 was better and returned it, then later decided that the A7RV wasn't that bad after all and bought the Sony again!!

I responded to ask what happened. He said that he needed it for his paying jobs (portraits and landscapes) which didn't really explain the previous comments that the OM-1 excelled for every genre of photography.

And he has now listed some of his Olympus lenses for sale on DPR , two f1.2 lenses that have never been used!

His MFT forum admirers (those love his posts about how he traded in his Canon R5 and expensive RF lenses for an OM-1) are probably starting to wonder why he hasn't been posting about M43 any more.

 

[SUPER-ELMAR]

OMDS is not limited by corporate priorities of a conglomerate with many layers like Panasonic. It does not appear that Panasonic will allow low end M43 to be developed. It is GH only which means a new body every 4 years with maybe some variants along the way (GH5s).

I am not sure Panasonic was that specific about its intentions with M43, as per my response to you in another thread. However, I don't really know so you may be right.

There was interview I read that mentions discontinuation of compacts and low end cameras. Focus would be on full feature video which was understood to be GH and S line. M43 has been only GH lately with the G100 outlier.

"Little" OMDS launched two cameras last year. Panasonic launched one across both mounts.

To be fair, the OM-1 was developed under Olympus and released after they divested the company to JIP. The OM-5 released by JIP is a warm make-over and re-badging of the EM5-Mk3.

The divesture began late 2020. They were released in 2022, 8 months apart so how can one be developed under Olympus from 2020 but the other is JIP? You understand that OMDS are all former Olympus Imaging staff, right?

It remains to be seen whether OMDS has the resources to continue with the type of major developments that the old Olympus was able to achieve by using the resources of its profitable medical instrument business.

You mean Medical has to now pay for R&D from OMDS whereas before they could push resources around internally to make Medical look more profitable by forcing losses on Imaging.

They may drift away to being more like another JIP brand, Sony Vaio - low investment in R&D, me-too products that are not leading edge. Time will tell.

Vaio was never leading edge to begin with. That is a different consumer market however.

It definitely was a quiet year for Panasonic in 2022 - they released the GH6 and two lenses. It will be interesting to see what 2023 looks like for them. At least they are starting early.

Yes launching anything was vital after so much worry and speculation. My concern is the launches are not compelling in today's market.

Sigma bodies are rather niche. Leica bodies are beyond the realm of Lumix shoppers. There is tremendous middle ground for Panasonic to occupy but L-mount is a distant 4th among FF market share. They need something to attract from Canon, Sony, Nikon user base but playing catch up with technology like PDAF is not the way.

But I would say that it was a necessary first step.

It was necessary many years ago. Unfortunately, it was very late.

 

[Pete_W]

The divesture began late 2020. They were released in 2022, 8 months apart so how can one be developed under Olympus from 2020 but the other is JIP? You understand that OMDS are all former Olympus Imaging staff, right?

They didn't develop the OM-1 in the space of 12-14 months. Most of the development of would have happened under Olympus ownership.

As for the OMDS staff being former Olympus staff, yes it always starts that way with private equity takeovers but in a short space of time the usual situation is that long-term staff (who are more expensive) begin to leave or are pushed out because new management must cut costs to begin to build profit.

It remains to be seen whether OMDS has the resources to continue with the type of major developments that the old Olympus was able to achieve by using the resources of its profitable medical instrument business.

You mean Medical has to now pay for R&D from OMDS whereas before they could push resources around internally to make Medical look more profitable by forcing losses on Imaging.

What I meant was that Olympus medical (profitable) was propping up the camera business, so the camera business was using resources from the medical business. The camera business now has to stand on its own. I question their ability to fund R&D that will propel them to the front of the market as the new owners have no camera history. They are simply an investment firm looking to maximise profit.

Vaio was never leading edge to begin with. That is a different consumer market however.

Vaio was certainly designed to be a prestigious device with many entertainment features, and it sold at a higher price than many mainstream laptops.

It definitely was a quiet year for Panasonic in 2022 - they released the GH6 and two lenses. It will be interesting to see what 2023 looks like for them. At least they are starting early.

Yes launching anything was vital after so much worry and speculation. My concern is the launches are not compelling in today's market.

Panasonic seems to be invested in imaging for the long haul and they keep saying so in announcements by their execs. They haven't followed the path that Sony has (i.e. frequent new model releases in multiple segments) but I think they are much better off being intentional and targeted rather than trying to compete with Sony, Canon and Nikon on every front.

I think the S5 Mk 2 and X model are very compelling and they are getting a lot of attention.

 

[Nomad Nate]

Actually, my Olympus em5ii is better than a Nikon z9. I can't tell you how or why, but I just know it by the size of my mount.

Kidding aside, I think smaller online communities are more fun. There's actual community. I'm down to post here frequently as I've been missing the old school forum experience of my youth. The Lumix subreddit is also somewhat active but it's a mix of MFT and L mount.

 

[Fairlane]

Panasonic seems to be invested in imaging for the long haul and they keep saying so in announcements by their execs. They haven't followed the path that Sony has (i.e. frequent new model releases in multiple segments) but I think they are much better off being intentional and targeted rather than trying to compete with Sony, Canon and Nikon on every front.

I think the S5 Mk 2 and X model are very compelling and they are getting a lot of attention.

Indeed. Seems to be a lot of attention around these, and based on the first reviews it's already a contender for camera of the year. I think 2023 will be an excellent year for Panasonic.

 

[SafariBob]

I think L-mount is dead. It’s not for lack of offerings, sigma has many great lenses, and Panasonic has many great bodies, it’s just that they haven’t sold enough to build any momentum.

I love the bf, fp & s9. An ff foveon would be amazing, but it’s become a gamble, and Panasonic has abandoned many lines over the years.

--
Cold Spring Hot Spring. Lamassu. Safari Bob
https://www.instagram.com/seetheamericas/

 

[jalywol]

I think L-mount is dead. It’s not for lack of offerings, sigma has many great lenses, and Panasonic has many great bodies, it’s just that they haven’t sold enough to build any momentum.

I love the bf, fp & s9. An ff foveon would be amazing, but it’s become a gamble, and Panasonic has abandoned many lines over the years.

Um, what has Panasonic abandoned over the years? They've been making M43 gear since 2008, and have not discontinued the line. They've experimented with different M43 models over the years, but those have all been part of the M43 system, which continues.


Panasonic added in L-mount in 2018 (which was a Leica mount that Leica introduced in 2014) and have been building that out steadily. If I recall from one of their interviews, L-mount is what's growing now, and M43 is stagnant. So, I think you have jumped the gun by pronouncing L-mount circling the drain.

Panasonic has been steadily introducing some very innovative lenses for the L-mount over the past year and a half, and they have managed to put very good optics into very small (for FF) lenses, which is a very impressive feat for any FF format system. I think you have to look at them playing the long game here, which they are, and M43 is the system that's got "footnote" trailing along after it, not L-mount.

(PS, I shoot both systems)

-J

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I think L-mount is dead. It’s not for lack of offerings, sigma has many great lenses, and Panasonic has many great bodies, it’s just that they haven’t sold enough to build any momentum.

I love the bf, fp & s9. An ff foveon would be amazing, but it’s become a gamble, and Panasonic has abandoned many lines over the years.

Um, what has Panasonic abandoned over the years? They've been making M43 gear since 2008, and have not discontinued the line. They've experimented with different M43 models over the years, but those have all been part of the M43 system, which continues.

Panasonic added in L-mount in 2018 (which was a Leica mount that Leica introduced in 2014) and have been building that out steadily. If I recall from one of their interviews, L-mount is what's growing now, and M43 is stagnant. So, I think you have jumped the gun by pronouncing L-mount circling the drain.

Panasonic has been steadily introducing some very innovative lenses for the L-mount over the past year and a half, and they have managed to put very good optics into very small (for FF) lenses, which is a very impressive feat for any FF format system. I think you have to look at them playing the long game here, which they are, and M43 is the system that's got "footnote" trailing along after it, not L-mount.

(PS, I shoot both systems)

-J

I think that they will stick with both mount systems. They must have plenty of lens stocks that they can trundle out to sell quite profitably. Of course they need to keep making some (just a few) camera bodies for both mount systems in order to make a market for the lenses. Digital camera bodies are bouncing around and plateau of performance and therefore we cannot really expect considerable numbers of new bodies when by and large the current ones that they have on the market are already very good.

There have been a few S-II models released recently - sort of right up to the level of profession shooter level - with the "interesting" S9 hanging about for compact basic use.

Nothing wrong with the addictive cheap and compact G100D either or the standout G9II for M4/3 mount.

 

[Joe Lynch]

I see a trend all over the internet forums. Traffic has dropped off, and I think it is because of dilution on the internet--people work on the net, get their news on the net, so many options now for screen time that folks cut back on the time they spend on any one site but visit more sites per day than they used to.

As for m43 and FF, I'm only going to buy two Lumix FF cameras this year and maybe one m43, and trade in one Sony maybe. I'm doing my part, LOL.

Joe L

 

[Jonathan Mac]

Less activity on forums is pretty much universal as younger folk prefer Instagram, Reddit, and other forms to discuss things rather than more traditional forums.

L-mount users, from my observations, tend to also be a lot less argumentative than many users of other brands, I imagine because they're happier with their gear. Less argument means less posting.

 

[SafariBob]

I think L-mount is dead. It’s not for lack of offerings, sigma has many great lenses, and Panasonic has many great bodies, it’s just that they haven’t sold enough to build any momentum.

I love the bf, fp & s9. An ff foveon would be amazing, but it’s become a gamble, and Panasonic has abandoned many lines over the years.

Um, what has Panasonic abandoned over the years? They've been making M43 gear since 2008, and have not discontinued the line. They've experimented with different M43 models over the years, but those have all been part of the M43 system, which continues.

Panasonic added in L-mount in 2018 (which was a Leica mount that Leica introduced in 2014) and have been building that out steadily. If I recall from one of their interviews, L-mount is what's growing now, and M43 is stagnant. So, I think you have jumped the gun by pronouncing L-mount circling the drain.

Panasonic has been steadily introducing some very innovative lenses for the L-mount over the past year and a half, and they have managed to put very good optics into very small (for FF) lenses, which is a very impressive feat for any FF format system. I think you have to look at them playing the long game here, which they are, and M43 is the system that's got "footnote" trailing along after it, not L-mount.

(PS, I shoot both systems)

-J

They have abandoned lines like the GM and GX series. Maybe I am wrong. It's just how it feels to me. Maybe it is rude of me to suggest it. You never see the cameras around anymore, and until fairly recently, the GH series was a mainstay for a lot of video.

I think sigma has very compelling offerings, and obviously Panasonic is second to none in video, it's just that I think you also need volume to support a system, which they don't seem to have.

 

[SafariBob]

I see a trend all over the internet forums. Traffic has dropped off, and I think it is because of dilution on the internet--people work on the net, get their news on the net, so many options now for screen time that folks cut back on the time they spend on any one site but visit more sites per day than they used to.

I think it's true. It's also ChatGPT, people argue with a bot then they take their crusades to a forum.

As for m43 and FF, I'm only going to buy two Lumix FF cameras this year and maybe one m43, and trade in one Sony maybe. I'm doing my part, LOL.

LOL.

Joe L

 

[jimrpdx]

L-mount users, from my observations, tend to also be a lot less argumentative than many users of other brands, I imagine because they're happier with their gear. Less argument means less posting.

Partly it's the 'flooding' of Lumix by Pentax users seeking a mirrorless option. We never learned to argue as we were united in our perpetual doooom /survival mode.

--
Jim R, Cowlitz county US | Lumix ß1, GX7
https://granitix2.blogspot.com/2020/11/kit.html

 

[MasterOfGoingFaster]

"...and Leica is just Leica. It probably really doesn't matter much what they do. Their cameras (and lenses) are so expensive that they probably won't bring a lot of photographers into L mount anyway.

Funny - it was the Leica SL-2S that got me into L-mount.

I have quite a few M-mount lenses and use them on a Leica M10R and adapted on Nikon Z bodies. Leica has thinner glass covering the sensor, and the thicker glass on the Nikon hurts the sharpness in the corners. After some study, I purchased a used Leica SL2-S strictly to use M-mount lenses. On impulse, I got a Sigma 24-70/2.8 zoom as a general purpose lense for the SL2-S.

I did not expect it to be so good. Today I own a 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.4 Sigma L-mount. I normally use Nikon Z primes (most f/1.2 lenses) and they are pretty huge. The Leica + Sigma makes for a smaller, lighter package and makes a nice companion to my Leica M10R.

There's a lot to like about the L mount. It could use a Sony E to L adapter that supports AF. Urth has an adapter for Canon EF/EF-S lenses that supports AF. I know the AF adapters for Sony E to Nikon Z are popular and seem to work pretty well.

 

[Jonathan Mac]

"...and Leica is just Leica. It probably really doesn't matter much what they do. Their cameras (and lenses) are so expensive that they probably won't bring a lot of photographers into L mount anyway.

Funny - it was the Leica SL-2S that got me into L-mount.

I have quite a few M-mount lenses and use them on a Leica M10R and adapted on Nikon Z bodies. Leica has thinner glass covering the sensor, and the thicker glass on the Nikon hurts the sharpness in the corners. After some study, I purchased a used Leica SL2-S strictly to use M-mount lenses. On impulse, I got a Sigma 24-70/2.8 zoom as a general purpose lense for the SL2-S.

I did not expect it to be so good. Today I own a 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.4 Sigma L-mount. I normally use Nikon Z primes (most f/1.2 lenses) and they are pretty huge. The Leica + Sigma makes for a smaller, lighter package and makes a nice companion to my Leica M10R.

There's a lot to like about the L mount. It could use a Sony E to L adapter that supports AF. Urth has an adapter for Canon EF/EF-S lenses that supports AF. I know the AF adapters for Sony E to Nikon Z are popular and seem to work pretty well.

There are also EF to L adapters from Viltrox and Commlite, plus Sigma but that's very limited in terms of which EF lenses work on it.

 

[Oiche]

I think L-mount is dead. It’s not for lack of offerings, sigma has many great lenses, and Panasonic has many great bodies, it’s just that they haven’t sold enough to build any momentum.

I love the bf, fp & s9. An ff foveon would be amazing, but it’s become a gamble, and Panasonic has abandoned many lines over the years.

Are you getting mixed up with Pentax, that I why I switched from Pentax.

You got to be having a laugh or armchair Panasonic CEO?

 

[Oiche]

I think L-mount is dead. It’s not for lack of offerings, sigma has many great lenses, and Panasonic has many great bodies, it’s just that they haven’t sold enough to build any momentum.

I love the bf, fp & s9. An ff foveon would be amazing, but it’s become a gamble, and Panasonic has abandoned many lines over the years.

Um, what has Panasonic abandoned over the years? They've been making M43 gear since 2008, and have not discontinued the line. They've experimented with different M43 models over the years, but those have all been part of the M43 system, which continues.

Panasonic added in L-mount in 2018 (which was a Leica mount that Leica introduced in 2014) and have been building that out steadily. If I recall from one of their interviews, L-mount is what's growing now, and M43 is stagnant. So, I think you have jumped the gun by pronouncing L-mount circling the drain.

Panasonic has been steadily introducing some very innovative lenses for the L-mount over the past year and a half, and they have managed to put very good optics into very small (for FF) lenses, which is a very impressive feat for any FF format system. I think you have to look at them playing the long game here, which they are, and M43 is the system that's got "footnote" trailing along after it, not L-mount.

(PS, I shoot both systems)

-J

They have abandoned lines like the GM and GX series. Maybe I am wrong. It's just how it feels to me. Maybe it is rude of me to suggest it. You never see the cameras around anymore, and until fairly recently, the GH series was a mainstay for a lot of video.

I think sigma has very compelling offerings, and obviously Panasonic is second to none in video, it's just that I think you also need volume to support a system, which they don't seem to have.

Video is where most of the market is, video gets more hits than stills, even mine. Hence Nikon buying RED and trying to keep up with Panasonic etc.

Sigma cameras are a tiny niche market in comparison yet they still make cameras so why would Panasonic be dead or L-mount including Leica?

At the time of buying S5ii I didn’t realise just how brilliant the video was and now I’m so glad I bought it over Nikon Z6ii

As per your original post, it is raining new gear in L-mount, this would not happen if there was no market for it.

 

[Oiche]

Less activity on forums is pretty much universal as younger folk prefer Instagram, Reddit, and other forms to discuss things rather than more traditional forums.

Yip, older folk like me who got the internet in1998 and PCs became affordable enjoyed forums and geocities, remember that? It was basic, nice to use and talk to people all over the world. This we still enjoy… the basics and nowadays the streaming making terrestrial TV almost obsolete.

I love the comments on YouTube, the bots are there usually on geo-political channels but they are easy to spot, maybe for me almost like Blade Runner but so many others argue with the bots LoL

Bots unlikely to appear on photo forums as the humans are bad enough, M43 wars, Canon versus Nikon. Ahem Pentax who attack any reality you dare to mention like a swarm of bees. PentaxForums is a good website but a cult where if you don’t tow the line you are ousted.

L-mount users, from my observations, tend to also be a lot less argumentative than many users of other brands, I imagine because they're happier with their gear. Less argument means less posting.

Yip because we are somewhat outsiders, many from Pentax and do not want that cultish behaviour, for me I was sick of it and it was embarrassing.

I can be argumentative, I consider that other thread I posted on a waste of time and I told him so, somewhat a troll. Pentax forums probably consider me one for still posting there even though I’ve knowledge of their system. They want nothing but accolade and the latest example was me telling my knowledge about capture in focus, telling the facts but no they want to live in an imaginary world.

There are also arguments surrounding the Leica 50mm f2 being better than the LUMIX version which they copied the formula, nothing wrong with this stuff.

Arguments in forums are integral and part of human behaviour, there are good and silly ones. I objected to the other thread as he was a time and effort waster and not genuine. IMO too many nicely nicer people appraising him for the sake of being nicely just like the current geo politics. Also the nonsense thread attacking S9 with a Fuji APSC so there are wars surrounding l-mount. It is what humans do