Is it possible to make changes to RAW and save again as RAW?

[Frankieplus]

Why doesn't it make sence to me?

I can't understand why you just can't open a RAW file, increase the brightness value and then save as a new RAW file with a different name

Is this really impossible?

-Frankie

 

[Barry Pearson]

hbx2004 wrote:
[snip]

Even more precise: settings are saved into original raw file as
metadata (if you allow that). Think of those settings (or "recipe")
as some exif data being added. That means: pure sensor data isn't
touched.

[snip]

Is it actually Exif data? (Or was that an analogy?)

Adobe uses XMP (based on XML) in DNG files. I believe the NX edit-list is based on XML in some way.

 

[Barry Pearson]

Diane B wrote:
[snip]

I don't think so. When you read the help file in DPP, it surely
sounds just like sidecar, etc. I've used DPP since the beginning and
Zoombrowser before that when RAW files were first introduced. I
don't pretend to be a techie but no one would allow permanent changes
to be made to their RAW files--even if you can reset them. Just
think--years from now you want to go back to your RAW file--but you
no longer have DPP on your HD--and---'oh, my gosh---its not the
original'--no one would use a software that did that. The whole
point of RAW is that you have a negative that is never changed.

[snip]

Distinguish between changing the raw file (which is quite common) and changing the raw image data within the file (which isn't).

My guess is that the edit-list metadata put in by DPP is only recognised by DPP (and perhaps other Canon products?) so other products in future (as now) will treat the image as though it hasn't been changed by DPP.

I discussed the term "digital negative" at the link below. I think it has passed its use-by date!
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/raw.htm#digitalnegative

 

[Ron Parr]

If all you wanted to do were increase brightness, the operation could be done on the raw file fairly easily. You wouldn't need to demosaic the image at all. Of course, the fact that it's technically possible to write such software doesn't mean that it's a good idea or that anybody would do it.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

 

[Diane B]

Why doesn't it make sence to me?

I can't understand why you just can't open a RAW file, increase the
brightness value and then save as a new RAW file with a different name

Is this really impossible?

-Frankie

Yes, impossible. RAW is the negative--you only get one of those. Why would anyone want to change the original?? You can save as many interations of it through use of various RCs as you want--but never touch the RAW which you may wish to go back to over and over.

Diane
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[Diane B]

I don't think so. When you read the help file in DPP, it surely
sounds just like sidecar, etc. I've used DPP since the beginning and
Zoombrowser before that when RAW files were first introduced. I
don't pretend to be a techie but no one would allow permanent changes
to be made to their RAW files--even if you can reset them. Just
think--years from now you want to go back to your RAW file--but you
no longer have DPP on your HD--and---'oh, my gosh---its not the
original'--no one would use a software that did that. The whole
point of RAW is that you have a negative that is never changed.

[snip]

Distinguish between changing the raw file (which is quite common) and
changing the raw image data within the file (which isn't).

My guess is that the edit-list metadata put in by DPP is only
recognised by DPP (and perhaps other Canon products?) so other
products in future (as now) will treat the image as though it hasn't
been changed by DPP.

I discussed the term "digital negative" at the link below. I think it
has passed its use-by date!
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/raw.htm#digitalnegative

Yes, you put it much better than I did, but the point I was trying to get at is that the RAW file data is not changed--but that you can change the RAW file with additional data---but the OP doesn't seem to understand the difference--or why.

Diane
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[Ron Parr]

Of course it's possible - it's just data.

The only issue is whether has bothered to write a software tool to do it. I would guess not.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

 

[Jacques Cornell]

What I mean is, I took some raw images that are underexposed. Can I
increase the brightness and save it with the new brightness levels?
When I save it can it still be saved as a raw file?

Most RAW formats do not have a way to store adjustment instructions. The exception is DNG. If you adjust a RAW file in Adobe Camera RAW and save it as a DNG, you will have a RAW file with the adjustment instructions embedded. You can then hand off that DNG to a client, and when s/he opens it in a DNG-aware app like iView, it will be displayed as adjusted.

Alternatively, you could adjust in ACR, then give the RAW file and its XMP sidecar file to the client and specify that it should be opened in ACR.

DPP will not do what you're asking for. Neither will Aperture.

--
'No matter where you go, there you are.'

 

[hbx2004]

Even more precise: settings are saved into original raw file as
metadata (if you allow that). Think of those settings (or "recipe")
as some exif data being added. That means: pure sensor data isn't
touched.

[snip]

Is it actually Exif data? (Or was that an analogy?)

No, settings aren't saved into Exif section, but into MakerNote section -where also other camera related stuff (camera settings, lens used, etc.) reside.

So, yes: it was ment as analogy -because some readers may not be aware there's something else there, besides Exif .

Adobe uses XMP (based on XML) in DNG files. I believe the NX
edit-list is based on XML in some way.

DPP doesn't use (read/write) XMP data inside CR2 file. But if you write some XMP data into CR2 manually, then DPP just ignores them (as if it wasn't there).

If I may add: if you write XMP (or IPTC) metadata manually into CR2, then other tools (Lightroom, for example) will recognize that metadata, of course.

Greetings,
Bogdan
--
My pictures are my memories
http://freeweb.siol.net/hrastni3/

 

[Diane B]

Of course it's possible - it's just data.

The only issue is whether has bothered to write a software tool to do
it. I would guess not.

Of course you are right--but I'm meaning in the world of today--there is no software that allows you to do this--is there? My question again is why would one WANT to do that--just do various iterations and either save them in some format--or, in various apps, you can just save 'recipes', etc.

I just think that the OP doesn't see any purpose as to why one would choose to keep a RAW and convert or save recipes as opposed to 'changing' the actual data. If he doesn't understand any good reason for shooting in RAW and keeping it 'as is', then probably the only advantage he sees in shooting RAW is so he can more easily correct bad WB, exposures, etc. In my mind, there are lots more good reasons to shoot in RAW than for those reasons. Just strange to this long time RAW shooter who has RAW files from more than 6 years ago and has often reprocessed some as new RCs are better, my skills are improved--I have a different vision for the shot, etc.

Diane
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[hbx2004]

What I mean is, I took some raw images that are underexposed. Can I
increase the brightness and save it with the new brightness levels?
When I save it can it still be saved as a raw file?

Most RAW formats do not have a way to store adjustment instructions.
The exception is DNG. If you adjust a RAW file in Adobe Camera RAW
and save it as a DNG, you will have a RAW file with the adjustment
instructions embedded. You can then hand off that DNG to a client,
and when s/he opens it in a DNG-aware app like iView, it will be
displayed as adjusted.

Alternatively, you could adjust in ACR, then give the RAW file and
its XMP sidecar file to the client and specify that it should be
opened in ACR.

DPP will not do what you're asking for. Neither will Aperture.

You're wrong (see my post bellow in this thread).

Adobe's DNG saves settings (as XMP metadata) inside DNG. Same does DPP: stores settings inside CR2 (into MakerNote section of metadata).
So, in both cases there's single image file (DNG or CR2) containing settings.

Yes, settings stored by DPP can only be used by DPP. But the same with DNG: if settings are stored by Lightroom (for example), only Lightroom can make use of them (ok, and Adobe ACR -which is the same).

Bogdan
--
My pictures are my memories
http://freeweb.siol.net/hrastni3/

 

[Barry Pearson]

Barry Pearson wrote:

[snip]

Is it actually Exif data? (Or was that an analogy?)

No, settings aren't saved into Exif section, but into MakerNote
section -where also other camera related stuff (camera settings, lens
used, etc.) reside.
So, yes: it was ment as analogy -because some readers may not be
aware there's something else there, besides Exif .

[snip]

For interest, Makernote is part of Exif! (Exif tag 37500).

 

[Barry Pearson]

hbx2004 wrote:
[snip]

Yes, settings stored by DPP can only be used by DPP. But the same
with DNG: if settings are stored by Lightroom (for example), only
Lightroom can make use of them (ok, and Adobe ACR -which is the same).

There is another route by which edits can be stored in the raw file for use elsewhere. I don't know if this applies to CR2s, (or NEFs), but it certainly applies to DNGs.

It is possible to hold full-sized rendered JPEGs in the DNGs which can be extracted by various products. So the one file can hold the raw image data, the (Adobe-specific) XMP edit-list, and a full sized rendered JPEG which will often be adequate if no editing, other than perhaps downsizing, is needed.

 

[hbx2004]

For interest, Makernote is part of Exif! (Exif tag 37500).

Indeed... I'll get a beer for both

Greetings,
Bogdan
--
My pictures are my memories
http://freeweb.siol.net/hrastni3/

 

[hbx2004]

Yes, settings stored by DPP can only be used by DPP. But the same
with DNG: if settings are stored by Lightroom (for example), only
Lightroom can make use of them (ok, and Adobe ACR -which is the same).

There is another route by which edits can be stored in the raw file
for use elsewhere. I don't know if this applies to CR2s, (or NEFs),
but it certainly applies to DNGs.

It is possible to hold full-sized rendered JPEGs in the DNGs which
can be extracted by various products. So the one file can hold the
raw image data, the (Adobe-specific) XMP edit-list, and a full sized
rendered JPEG which will often be adequate if no editing, other than
perhaps downsizing, is needed.

Yes, this feature (full sized previews) also applies to CR -well kind of:

Obvious way: You shoot raw+jpeg and then you delete jpeg file -full sized preview is embedded inside CR2 anyway. But that's not what you want to hear, I suppose

Another (well, not so easy/comfortable) way is: you can manually embed any jpeg image inside CR2. So, apply settings, convert to jpeg and replace existing (small) jpeg with new one. Because CR2 is kinda tiff (AFAIK), any serious tool should be able to read/show/extract this jpeg. I've tried and it works.

Still, I owe you a beer (from bellow post)
Bogdan
--
My pictures are my memories
http://freeweb.siol.net/hrastni3/

 

[Barry Pearson]

hbx2004 wrote:
[snip]

Indeed... I'll get a beer for both

I think it is a long way from Stockport, England, to where you are. You'll have to drink both!

 

[Jacques Cornell]

--
'No matter where you go, there you are.'

 

[Peter Nelson]

Thanks Ed. In this case I added Picasa2 (which I mispelled) during the course of my original one and only edit oppertunity. Hence my second post with the spelling correction.

Well it's good to meet someone with their heart in the right place, and I appreciate your thoughtfullness.
--
Artist Eyes

 

[Frankieplus]

If I make changes to a RAW image in DPP and save the changes, can I then open up that raw file in ACR or lightroom and see the changes that I made in DPP?

Or not.

?

-Frankie

 

[jrwagner]

You can export as DNG format that is raw too.

But I don't know if there is a converter that save the changes.

Regards,

JR