Is DOF really important?

[gpr2020]

MLU is important to some and me. I agree with you. Sony decided not to include it in their lower end model. That's their right, after all they own the business and have their reasons. But Sony have been providing the a700, a850 and a900 with MLU. So we still have choice and can buy what fit our needs.

not entirely true ..because not all people can fork out that money.

You are right there. Luckily for buyers Sony is not the only brand and buyers have many choices to get the camera that fit their needs at the best price. i.e: a900 and Nikon D3X. This is a good example of why diversity of brand are a benefit for buyers. And there are lots of way around that many buyers have tried to get what they need at the best price: e-bay, 2nd hand market, clearance, buying in another country where you have a better price, etc...
--
In reviews we do not trust !

 

[ephankim]

Viewfinder DOF preview does not work with apertures smaller than F/4.5.

It's much more accurate to take a shot an look in the LCD.

--
http://flickr.com/ephankim
http://photo.net/photos/eric.phan-kim

 

[Zamac]

Viewfinder DOF preview does not work with apertures smaller than F/4.5.

It's much more accurate to take a shot an look in the LCD.

True. That's how I currently do it with the A100. However, there are problems if the subject - e.g. an insect - won't stay still for long. Being able to see DOF before taking the image would be more effective.

 

[Graham Best]

MLU is important to some and me. I agree with you. Sony decided not to include it in their lower end model. That's their right, after all they own the business and have their reasons. But Sony have been providing the a700, a850 and a900 with MLU. So we still have choice and can buy what fit our needs.

not entirely true ..because not all people can fork out that money.

If that's the case, then they will purchase a competitors camera, or buy a used Sony model. Or simply continue to use the camera they already have. The point was that people have a choice.

I seldom see Nikon and Canon dinged for failing to provide in camera stabilization. There only option is to purchase that feature on each and every lens you wish to use. Is that fair? I don't think "fair" has anything to do with it. That's the CaNikon business model, and if you don't like it, you're free to purchase a Sony, Pentax, Panosonic or Olympus camera.

A camera is simply a tool. Manufacturers market their version of tools with features they feel compete at that price point. The same can be said whether comparing a shovel or an automobile.

Sony obviously feels MLU or DOF are features they reserve for their higher priced models. If you don't feel they are competitive, vote with your pocketbook. Lack of sales sounds a far larger noise to the decision makers at Sony than all the forum whine posts combined.

--
Regards,
Graham

'I photograph to find out what something will look like photographed.' -Garry Winogrand

 

[gpr2020]

Viewfinder DOF preview does not work with apertures smaller than F/4.5.

It's much more accurate to take a shot an look in the LCD.

--
http://flickr.com/ephankim
http://photo.net/photos/eric.phan-kim

Right. Valid point too.
--
In reviews we do not trust !

 

[gpr2020]

MLU is important to some and me. I agree with you. Sony decided not to include it in their lower end model. That's their right, after all they own the business and have their reasons. But Sony have been providing the a700, a850 and a900 with MLU. So we still have choice and can buy what fit our needs.

not entirely true ..because not all people can fork out that money.

If that's the case, then they will purchase a competitors camera, or buy a used Sony model. Or simply continue to use the camera they already have. The point was that people have a choice.

I seldom see Nikon and Canon dinged for failing to provide in camera stabilization. There only option is to purchase that feature on each and every lens you wish to use. Is that fair? I don't think "fair" has anything to do with it. That's the CaNikon business model, and if you don't like it, you're free to purchase a Sony, Pentax, Panosonic or Olympus camera.

A camera is simply a tool. Manufacturers market their version of tools with features they feel compete at that price point. The same can be said whether comparing a shovel or an automobile.

Sony obviously feels MLU or DOF are features they reserve for their higher priced models. If you don't feel they are competitive, vote with your pocketbook. Lack of sales sounds a far larger noise to the decision makers at Sony than all the forum whine posts combined.

Exactly. The pocketbook as you said is the only real power of us, the consumers.

--
In reviews we do not trust !

 

[Jb502]

Well, it certainly is to me, and I suspect to anyone who is in the least bit serious about photography.

So, of DOF is important, why does Sony think that A5XX level photographers do not need DOF preview?

Sony did not think when it came to this feature.

OK, DOF preview is pretty useless through the view-finder for anything much less than wide open. But , with manual focus live view it could be invaluable combined with magnification and brightness compensation.

So Sony thought we did not need it, or thought it could be used as a model-level feature (bad idea - Canon lost me as a customer by excluding essential features in the level of camera I could afford) or they thought about it too late - and found that aperture close-down was directly linked to the shutter release and could not be activated other than by direct mechanical means.

Much the same argument applies to MLU, even though I seldom need it.

I will still buy the A550. I will use aperture bracketing for stationary subjects, as I have done in the past, but I will remain disappointed in Sony.

Are you serious??

Here is your dof preview.

TAKE A PICTURE. LOOK AT THE PICTURE. If you don't like it, TAKE ANOTHER.

I guess I don't really care. If you won't buy it because of that, and MLU lockup, then you can keep using your old cameras, and I will enjoy my new a550 that does not have dof preview, or mlu, same as my a300

 

[arthurb2]

I have been looking through this thread with great interest, and with slightly increasing annoyance; there have been many good points raised, but too often posters have not allowed for the varying needs of photographers of all ages, both sexes and differing capabilities.

This last post by jb502 is a case in point.
"TAKE A PICTURE. LOOK AT THE PICTURE. If you don't like it, TAKE ANOTHER."

First, THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT. Second, there is sometimes not time to look at the lcd screen carefully. Third, and to me most importantly, please remember that there is a sizeable minority (10%+?) for whom your advice is completely useless. I cannot use the lcd screen to check pictures because when I sit down at home to read, or write this post on my laptop, I first have to put on my reading glasses.

To several others: I would not buy an A500/550 precisely because it does not have DoF preview and MLU. Luckily, I bought an A700 (new - from a leading UK supplier) for considerably less than the cost of an A500. I have to say that everyone here who claims that DoF-P is unnecessary or cannot be used on APS-C DSLRs, is talking complete rubbish and is utterly stupid! Well, actually, I don't - I think they probably are not stupid, but they are only describing what suits them, and that does not suit me - I do require DoF-P, and I prefer to have MLU available. DoF-P is completely useable, and to me very useful, on my A700, and it was still useful, though less useable, on my A100, which of course had a much inferior viewfinder than the A700.

It is worth noting that because of the lack of these features on the A5xx cameras, I was looking at other brands - then I got my bargain A700, so I did not need to sell and buy several lenses.

On one last point, sometimes it seems that many people believe that big corporations in general, and Sony in particular, are run by total idiots - except in rare cases they are not, of course. However, that does not mean that the illustrious leaders of said large companies always make the right decisions, still less that their minions do, and sometimes they make a whole string of bad decisions. It is still my opinion that Sony is an interesting and generally successful company, but I still harbour some doubts as to whether they really understand the DSLR, especially the advanced DSLR, market, and thus whether they will do well there - Sony does have a slightly mixed track record over the past 40-odd years.

I f you have read this far, may I thank you for your patience.
Arthur.

 

[beakydave]

Viewfinder DOF preview does not work with apertures smaller than F/4.5.

On some cameras, perhaps, but on the A700 that statement is just not true. It is perfectly usable at apertures of at least down to f/16 (though at such apertures I've a pretty good idea of DOF, anyway ). But certainly at apertures in the f/4 to f/11 range I find it works well enough. I would suggest that those who say it cannot be used beyond f/4.5 just don't know how to use it effectively.

It's an argument that's been discussed ad nauseum before and I wouldn't disagree that checking the LCD afterwards is an alternative. But there isn't always a second opportunity. And as someone who hates having their photograph taken in any event, I would find it annoying if the photographer had to take the shot, ask me to wait while he checked the DOF, and then asked me to re-pose. Who knows, it might even take a third attempt if the second guess (because that's all it can be using the post-shot method - a guess) isn't accurate enough. But that's only one possible scenario where the shoot first, check later, method is less than ideal.

And there's a very good point made below. Like that poster, I wear reading glasses, but not for taking photographs. Whilst I can use the LCD screen to confirm exposure etc, I wouldn't trust it for checking focus without my glasses. Far more convenient, therefore, (and perfectly accurate enough) to use the DOF preview.

 

[Marti58]

--

• living in harmony with nature and other beings...will create an better world for all * marti58 -2006

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marti58/
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[liquid stereo]

I am of the opinion that DOF preview is outmoded. I say that because, in my experience, I can see the differences more easily using the LCD review. The reduction in light when using the DOF preview gives the LCD more of an advantage in my opinion.

If DSLRs were being created afresh today, I doubt any of them would have DOF preview.

I am sure many will differ.

Cheers!

Well, it certainly is to me, and I suspect to anyone who is in the least bit serious about photography.

So, of DOF is important, why does Sony think that A5XX level photographers do not need DOF preview?

Sony did not think when it came to this feature.

OK, DOF preview is pretty useless through the view-finder for anything much less than wide open. But , with manual focus live view it could be invaluable combined with magnification and brightness compensation.

So Sony thought we did not need it, or thought it could be used as a model-level feature (bad idea - Canon lost me as a customer by excluding essential features in the level of camera I could afford) or they thought about it too late - and found that aperture close-down was directly linked to the shutter release and could not be activated other than by direct mechanical means.

Much the same argument applies to MLU, even though I seldom need it.

I will still buy the A550. I will use aperture bracketing for stationary subjects, as I have done in the past, but I will remain disappointed in Sony.

 

[Zamac]

Had you but read my post carefully you would have noted that I was advocating DOF preview on the LCD , and that I did not think much of view finder DOF preview. Or perhaps you were just supporting me, in which case thanks.

 

[flakin stephen]

I never had one to use, but for those who did:

was the depth of field scale on the LCD on particular Minoltas as useful as I think it should have been?

cheers
Flakey
--
flakey

 

[tom55604]

I never had one to use, but for those who did:

was the depth of field scale on the LCD on particular Minoltas as useful as I think it should have been?

cheers
Flakey
--
flakey

I think you are talking about the Minolta Maxxum/Dynax/Alpha 7 film camera, which was the only camera to have this feature. Some of their earlier cameras had scales that only showed relative DOF without any actual measurements provided.

I find the 7's DOF scale useful in some situations. However, there are some limitations:

1. only works with "D" lenses (at the time these were limited)

2. Does not work with all third party "D" lenses -- some Sigmas gave strange results, such as the near end of the DOF being behind the camera, probably a function of arbitrarily selecting a lens ID or not passing all the info needed to the camera.

3. The DOF scale showed the front and back DOF from the focus point not from the camera. That was unusual for those used to using DOF scales on a manual focus camera.

4. There were no options that could be set by the user, such as desired max circle of confusion - for large enlargements, the user might want a smaller COC than for small enlargements. This was actually no different than the DOF scales on MF lenses, because you often didn't know what COF the lens manufacturer had used for their DOF scale.

It should be easy to include a DOF function on a DSLR, and I'm suprised that Sony hasn't done so. I would like one to have some options that would allow me to set the camera focus and aperture the way I would on a MF camera when I want to control DOF. One method would be to focus the lens on the near distance and have that value recorded, then the far distance and record it, then focus on the key subject that has tyo be sharp and have the camera recommend the aperture or show DOF for my selected aperture in relation to the desired near and far points. (Canon high level film cameras had a similar feature where once the points were focused on, the camera would set focus and aperture to keep them in the DOF, not sure if they continued it in the DSLRs). Also having hyperfocal distance displayed (in relation to a subject) as the aperture is adjusted. Also allow different CoC to be entered.

Those are some ideas, but I'd have to think them out a bit more to pick out what is most useful.

The problem today is that the Sony cameras (and other manufacturers) have removed all of the pre-shot methods for planning DOF. (No distance scales on many lenses, no DOF scales on zooms, short focusing arc on AF lenses, no DOF preview). I don't use DOF preview with most of my MF cameras, because use of the lens scales is accurate enough and the VFs are darker than my AF cameras when stopped down. Since a DSLR is a computer, they really should use its computing power to give the user useful information.

I don't like to chimp - Need reading glasses, miss the oportunity to get the one time shot, poor ability to evaluate the image on the LCD when shooting in sunlight. So I'd really like to plan my shots and bracket if necessary.

Tom

 

[liquid stereo]

I think you make a good point - some sort of DOF mode when shooting in live-view.

The aperture is constantly set, the LCD brightness is augmented to make up for the decreased light, and then DOF is inherently visible in the LCD image.

Cheers!

Had you but read my post carefully you would have noted that I was advocating DOF preview on the LCD , and that I did not think much of view finder DOF preview. Or perhaps you were just supporting me, in which case thanks.

 

[liquid stereo]

I didn't find it terrible useful but it was "cool".

Cheers!

 

[Barry Fitzgerald]

Had you but read my post carefully you would have noted that I was advocating DOF preview on the LCD , and that I did not think much of view finder DOF preview. Or perhaps you were just supporting me, in which case thanks.

My mistake..

So bottom line is the lens aperture does not stop down (even if you set aperture) and cannot give a DOF impression from sensor LV? Aka it's always fully open

That does seem odd, considering DOF on the main sensor would be useful.

 

[arthurb2]

To Liquid Stereo:

It may well be easy for you to use the lcd screen to check your DoF, but I cannot do that. A DSLR without DoF preview is seriously crippled for me, and for many millions of others like me. So your implied suggestion that manufacturers may well, or indeed should, remove the feature in future DSLRs is enough to make me quite cross. I should add that I am quite capable of guessing the DoF from the aperture and focal length in use, but I would much, much prefer to check. No, Liquid, the lcd screen is a complete no-no for me. This is not just a preference thing: you like to use the lcd and I like to use the viewfinder - it is a question of what I can use and what I cannot.

This also means that 99.9% of compact, or point-and-shoot digital cameras are completely useless for me. If I want a decent PaS backup, the Canon G10 seems to be about the only one that fits the bill now - crazy really as I am not going to lay out that amount of dosh on a second camera.

I have to say that I was greatly relieved to get a cheap (ish) A700, and didn't have to agonise about getting an A5xx or going elsewhere. I also still worry that Sony's camera division is too concerned with reducing the feature-set on its DSLRs, when many of these features cost very little extra to put in.

 

[Alpha Jack]

In the film days I used DOF preview a lot. Now, even though I do have it, I rarely use it. It's almost as easy to just shoot and review and in a lot of cases I will take 2 or 3 shots at different apertures so i can choose which one I like later.
--
Zeiss taste...Beercan budget!

 

[tko]

Jeez, from my Oly OM-1 to my Canon 7d, they all have DOF preview. It doesn't work. What you see in the viewfinder isn't what the DOF will be. This is for a variety of technical reasons, but it's kind of a useless feature. Who would blame them for eliminating it, and I'm not even a Sony user. Got to concentrate on what's important.

If DOF is so important, take the picture and preview in on screen, Will work 100% better than the viewfinder.