Imorality and the Dell error

[Daniella68313]

first we don't know their cost for that lens, we don't know if they did not get a special deal..we don't know if this was not just a marketing plot..

nobody knows. all that we know is that they can cancel, and if they don't then it's their problem.

$200 for the EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS USM was not a knowing and
intended offer, it was a mistake, and everyone ordering it knows
that. Dell thought they were offering the EF 75-300 f/4-5.6 for
that price, not the 100-400L.

Legally, there was not enforceable offer nor contract. Anyone
trying to hold them to the erroneous ad is attempting to steal
$1200 in merchandise that was never intended to be offered.

That Dell's automated order process sent acknowledgement is, again,
an obvious and unintended error. It does not necessarily prove
intent or an enforceable contract. The confirmations and credit
card charges were for the 75-300 at $200 even if they erroneously
named the other lens.

Your definitions apply:
"1 : to take the property of another wrongfully..." and "1 a : to
take or appropriate without right..." - there is no valid contract,
no knowing meeting of the minds on this transaction. To force
completion of the transaction is wrong and there is no legal right
to do so.

--
------------------------------------------
this is elfe language from Lord of the ring:
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[John Lehmkuhl]

To say F*CK IT to the camera world. LOTS of people have saved good money with Dell on a daily basis, but if they have to deal with this attitude and lack of understanding from a bunch of camera freaks, I would not be surprised if they give up on the measly profits that they already make........

-John Lehmkuhl

Though Dell did not admit a pricing error it is either that or an
extreme case of bait-and-switch which is not likely. (Why would
they invite huge numbers of headaches for a lens that supposedly
Canon only makes a thousand or so per year?)

Dell has purposely not called it an error of a specific type. They
did refer to the situation as an error but would not admit directly
that their site showed the L for $200.

So if any moraily were to be questioned it would be Dell's but why
go there?

No one said they did admit a pricing error.

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

--
*********************************************************
Los Angeles Canon digital SLR Group -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lacdg/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/realkuhl
Lens Example Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/realkuhl/lens_examples

 

[jowille]

Hi Rick, glad to see you back. Actually I missed some of your input, nice to have a different point of view sometimes.

Craig, as far the greedy hippocrites whining among themselves, even though you may not be greedy or a hypocrite, welcome aboard!

Bill

You can walk your hypothetical tightrope all you want, but it's
clear when the price is a small fraction of what would be expected
that people are only trying to take advantage. It's perfectly
acceptable to view a 5% error differently than an 80% one and no
one has to draw the line in order to justify that view. You're
perspective is hardly interesting.

Of course, Dell has done exactly as you say leaving the greedy
hypocrites to whine amongst themselves.

Other then just conversation, people need to stop being so
sensitive to others business.

This kind of thinking is exactly what's wrong with people and, by
extension, America today. We've become so self-involved that we
give no consideration to the repercussions of our actions.

You seem to make alot of generalizations. What makes you so
perfect compared to the "rest of us" . Self-involved with what?
How do you even consider this to be taking advantage of Dell? They
have NOT even admitted to a pricing error or any type of error
whatsoever.

What's wrong is that people such as yourself feel the need to
impose their own moralities on others who may not share the same
boundaries as you so to speak. This is an internet forum. Who
cares? This issue really comes down to morality , and anybody can
argue the other side till they turn blue. I can see both sides ,
although my posts might seem to indicate that I wouldn't care about
getting the deal if I could , which isn't necessarily the truth.

You didn't address my issue of saying what if the price were $900,
$1000, $1100 but STILL a pricing error on Dell's part. Would you
think it's ok? It isn't the reality but it is much more gray then
let's say $200.00 where everybody is quick to tout ethics. How
many of you jumped on the 70-200 IS Dell deal , and are here now
spouting ethics when the reality is you missed out on clicking the
order button?

Rick, I admire your convictions . However, capitalism will still
go on. People will always look for the best deal for themselves,
not for a company.

It's weird, if I spend $1400.00 for this lens at B/H it's ok. If
I spend $1200.00 it's STILL ok because I got a good deal. Now
where does the dollar threshold have to cross before my ethics get
questioned? $200.00 is definiately making me a bad guy of "what's
wrong with society today". So ethics , have a certain dollar value
to reach before it becomes wrong?

All in all, really Dell can cancel the orders. SO BE IT! At least
those of you who tried get some for effort. If it is so
detrimental to society like you put it, Dell will just get rid of
these frivolous orders instead of even trying to deal with them.

 

[Daniella68313]

measly? LOL.

I think you get the wrong perspective here. I would gladly their their lost on that one if I had their measly profit to go with.

-John Lehmkuhl

Though Dell did not admit a pricing error it is either that or an
extreme case of bait-and-switch which is not likely. (Why would
they invite huge numbers of headaches for a lens that supposedly
Canon only makes a thousand or so per year?)

Dell has purposely not called it an error of a specific type. They
did refer to the situation as an error but would not admit directly
that their site showed the L for $200.

So if any moraily were to be questioned it would be Dell's but why
go there?

No one said they did admit a pricing error.

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

--
*********************************************************
Los Angeles Canon digital SLR Group -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lacdg/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/realkuhl
Lens Example Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/realkuhl/lens_examples

--
------------------------------------------
this is elfe language from Lord of the ring:
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[EOSMan]

the computer world?

Dell did the same thing when they advertised their $2,000 computer at $200 (+ - 10%) and they were forced to honor the price.

Did they give up on computers?

Get your facts together before you go and make statements like that.

-John Lehmkuhl

Though Dell did not admit a pricing error it is either that or an
extreme case of bait-and-switch which is not likely. (Why would
they invite huge numbers of headaches for a lens that supposedly
Canon only makes a thousand or so per year?)

Dell has purposely not called it an error of a specific type. They
did refer to the situation as an error but would not admit directly
that their site showed the L for $200.

So if any moraily were to be questioned it would be Dell's but why
go there?

No one said they did admit a pricing error.

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

--
*********************************************************
Los Angeles Canon digital SLR Group -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lacdg/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/realkuhl
Lens Example Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/realkuhl/lens_examples

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

 

[Daniella68313]

Dell Profits Up 24 Percent

ADVERTISEMENT

PC maker Dell reported a 24 percent increase in profits for its most recent quarter, when it made $749 million on sales of $11.51 billion. The company also noted that PC sales rose a whopping 25 percent during the quarter, whereas its operating margin was relatively unchanged at 18.2 percent. Dell innovates in several ways, but its most impressive gains might very well be in operating processes. According to CEO Michael Dell, the company will use a variety of methods to cut operating costs by $1.5 billion this year. For example, Dell now uses machines rather than human beings to box computers.

http://www.connectedhomemag.com/Networking/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=41779

 

[EOSMan]

It also seems like they use machines as their customer services reps, but I think the machines would do a better job, IMO.

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

 

[Justme]

It also seems like they use machines as their customer services
reps, but I think the machines would do a better job, IMO.

What parts of Dell operation have been moved offshore? I know tech support (consumer) has but what else?

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

--

I know you mean well but please DO NOT link my images into the forum. Thanks for respecting that.

http://www.pbase.com/golfpic/nova_scotia_summer_2004
http://www.pbase.com/golfpic/digital_rebel_birds

 

[JoshW]

I'm just wondering...

I was informed that Dell was selling a 100-400 IS L lens for the bargin basement price of $196.00.

I went to their site, and low and behold, there was the advertisement for the 100-400 IS L lens... $196, along with a full discription of this lens. And yes, there seems to have been a manuf. # and Dell # which, unbeknown to me, was for a different lens (hey, I'm just not up on Dell or Canon's product codes)

I then received not one, but TWO e-mails, one a confirmation that Dell had received and accepted my order for a 100-400IS L lens, price $196, and that it would be sent out no later then Dec. 14.

Today, I recieved an e-mail that my order has been delayed, and that it will now be sent out no later then Dec. 29th.

Obviously, Dell now knows of the problem! Why isn't DELL contactiing ME to let me know that they plan to send out a 75-300 lens, when they know full well that's NOT what I ordered?

Dell has my phone number, they have my e-mail address, and five days have passed since I ordered this lens... WHY no acknowledgement from Dell, of a mistake. It WAS Dell who made the mistake, after all.

Even the e-mail today makes NO MENTION of a mistake, no mention that a substitute lens will be sent (if that's what they plan to do... who knows?)... and why is Dell attempting to get people to cancel their orders? Why don't they simply cancel ALL of the orders, if, as many on these boards seem to think, Dell has no obligation to honor their offer?

By the way, Dell HAS billed my credit card, and recieved my money. Why isn't DELL returning my money, and asking me if I want a crummy 75-300 lens instead of the 100-400IS they MUST know I ordered???

WHY NO MORAL INDIGNATION OVER DELL'S HANDELING OF THIS???

Just wondering....

 

[EOSMan]

It seems like anything that overflows the US sales, support, online help, etc... gets forwarded to offshore.

IMO, it’s the worse thing Dell could have done.

I refuse to deal with someone half way around the world and expect for them to be able to help me for matters in the states.

It also seems like they use machines as their customer services
reps, but I think the machines would do a better job, IMO.

What parts of Dell operation have been moved offshore? I know tech
support (consumer) has but what else?

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

--
I know you mean well but please DO NOT link my images into the
forum. Thanks for respecting that.

http://www.pbase.com/golfpic/nova_scotia_summer_2004
http://www.pbase.com/golfpic/digital_rebel_birds

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

 

[JoshW]

US law generally is on the side of the seller in these kinds of
cases, where the offer has an obvious unintended error that the
customer knows to be an error. There is no binding contract since
there is no knowing assent by Dell.

Dell took my money! They billed my CC, and it HAS been paid to Dell, according to Visa.

If that isn't acceptance of the deal, I'm not sure what is.

 

[Don_D]

Josh,
You protest too much.....very revealing.
Feeling just a bit guilty?
-Don

I'm just wondering...

I was informed that Dell was selling a 100-400 IS L lens for the
bargin basement price of $196.00.

I went to their site, and low and behold, there was the
advertisement for the 100-400 IS L lens... $196, along with a full
discription of this lens. And yes, there seems to have been a
manuf. # and Dell # which, unbeknown to me, was for a different
lens (hey, I'm just not up on Dell or Canon's product codes)

I then received not one, but TWO e-mails, one a confirmation that
Dell had received and accepted my order for a 100-400IS L lens,
price $196, and that it would be sent out no later then Dec. 14.

Today, I recieved an e-mail that my order has been delayed, and
that it will now be sent out no later then Dec. 29th.

Obviously, Dell now knows of the problem! Why isn't DELL
contactiing ME to let me know that they plan to send out a 75-300
lens, when they know full well that's NOT what I ordered?

Dell has my phone number, they have my e-mail address, and five
days have passed since I ordered this lens... WHY no
acknowledgement from Dell, of a mistake. It WAS Dell who made the
mistake, after all.

Even the e-mail today makes NO MENTION of a mistake, no mention
that a substitute lens will be sent (if that's what they plan to
do... who knows?)... and why is Dell attempting to get people to
cancel their orders? Why don't they simply cancel ALL of the
orders, if, as many on these boards seem to think, Dell has no
obligation to honor their offer?

By the way, Dell HAS billed my credit card, and recieved my money.
Why isn't DELL returning my money, and asking me if I want a crummy
75-300 lens instead of the 100-400IS they MUST know I ordered???

WHY NO MORAL INDIGNATION OVER DELL'S HANDELING OF THIS???

Just wondering....

 

[noclue]

Morality & business?.......hmmm.......two words not often associated with each other.

I agree with you.

It takes two to tango.

Why hasn't Dell stepped up and done something definitive by now?...............I think I know........they are a company in business . They are not the Vatican. Business is buisness. They are going to do what is best for their business". Consumers should do what is best for themselves. It's not about morality, or anything else.

It's a joint venture.

It's business, period.

they don't cancel, so not my fault.

Explain this with your moral..why Dell does not simply cancell all
these orders???

I will get flamed for this I am sure, but I am ashamed of the
attitude of many posters on this forum with respect to the Dell
100-400 pricing error. It is quite clear that Dell made a mistake
and have owned up to this. They appear in some cases to have
offered $100 compensation for the disappointment, which I would see
as very generous. I can even see that it was a good idea to take
advantage of the pricing mistake. But to try to screw Dell, or any
other company or individual who appears to have made an honest
error, in the way that some posters claim to be doing, tells me a
lot about the morality of those involved. Perhaps those who placed
an order for multiple lenses at a price they must have known was a
mistake, would see this "stealing" as another victimless crime, or
perhaps no kind of crime at all. I know exactly how they would
react if they were being shafted over an innocent error they
themselves might have made at sometime in their lives.
And no, I am not some christian do-gooder freak with a
holy-er-than-thou perspective, just a brit who is right now
disappointed with our cousins accross the pond.

--
ken from the UK

--
------------------------------------------
this is elfe language from Lord of the ring:
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel
Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send
them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[misha]

the computer world?

Dell did the same thing when they advertised their $2,000 computer
at $200 (+ - 10%) and they were forced to honor the price.

Did they give up on computers?

Get your facts together before you go and make statements like that.

Not a valid comparison. Computers are their core business. If they give on that, they might as well close shop. Cameras and lenses - particularly SLRs which are not sold in huge quantities and are not bundled with computers, are a side line, and it is not inconceivable that Dell might drop it - which would be killing a goose which produces good deals on a regular basis, for questionable gain.
--
Misha

 

[JoshW]

Josh,
You protest too much.....very revealing.
Feeling just a bit guilty?
-Don

Yeah. I'm losing sleep for poor ol Michael.

Hey, I'll sleep a LOT better once my "L" arrives!

Do you REALLY think this will have ANY effect on Dell's bottom line? You can't be THAT naive.....

(Sorry you didn't get in on time)

 

[Bob325085]

It's really all a matter of opinions.. You can easily make a case that the buyer is immoral.. You can easily make a case that the buyer did no wrong.. (same facts, two different spins on them, damn politics).. Dell could deserve this.. Dell could be victimized by it.. The law might agree, it might not (even the law has more than one side). You can argue so many angles, each time stating only the facts that happen to support your chosen direction. Trust me, we easily forget the big picture and facts that don't agree with us. One persons extremely biased post could've gone the other way without much thought. Everyone is using logic, concepts, and facts to support what really comes down to a personal perspective. Something that few of us even know the motivation of (If you have control over your own psychology, I'd be surprised). You opinions may be based on the way you were raised. But, as long as a person feels they aren't a "bad person", then they should be left alone by others. Those who do feel bad about the situation will feel guilty when they take the lens out for a photo trip.

Arguing that another person should abandon their own value system and adopt that of a internet forum poster they barely met is silly. It's a personal choice. Making your opinion known that you are judging another person as bad or wrong is also silly.

Some would consider belittling anothers moral values to be an immoral action. Some see black and white, some think life as grey, some make logical decisions, some just have a "feeling" about their decisions. We should respect anyone who is well intentioned, even if we don't agree with them.

And it's highly possible for someone to have a "different" morality, without one being better than the other. That's a horrible cultural problem we have in this country. Not everything needs to be compared and judged. Life would be easier without it.

No one here can blame another for seeing the world differently, that's the way the world is designed. Pick a side and be happy..

Bobby

 

[EOSMan]

There's big money in the digital camera business. If there wasn't then Dell wouldn’t be in it. This little blunder that just happened won't even make a small dent in Dell's profits and they will continue to stay in the camera business. I will bet money on that.

the computer world?

Dell did the same thing when they advertised their $2,000 computer
at $200 (+ - 10%) and they were forced to honor the price.

Did they give up on computers?

Get your facts together before you go and make statements like that.

Not a valid comparison. Computers are their core business. If they
give on that, they might as well close shop. Cameras and lenses -
particularly SLRs which are not sold in huge quantities and are not
bundled with computers, are a side line, and it is not
inconceivable that Dell might drop it - which would be killing a
goose which produces good deals on a regular basis, for
questionable gain.
--
Misha

--
EOSMan
http://www.pbase.com/eosman

 

[RobE]

It's innovations like robotics that enable you to get the insane deals Dell has all the time.

Dell Profits Up 24 Percent

ADVERTISEMENT

PC maker Dell reported a 24 percent increase in profits for its
most recent quarter, when it made $749 million on sales of $11.51
billion. The company also noted that PC sales rose a whopping 25
percent during the quarter, whereas its operating margin was
relatively unchanged at 18.2 percent. Dell innovates in several
ways, but its most impressive gains might very well be in operating
processes. According to CEO Michael Dell, the company will use a
variety of methods to cut operating costs by $1.5 billion this
year. For example, Dell now uses machines rather than human beings
to box computers.

http://www.connectedhomemag.com/Networking/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=41779

--
(See profile for equipment I own -- questions welcome.)

 

[Ken Fox244188]

Hey Don,

I have to admit that this whole topic, which might conceivably affect me, has grown tiresome. Tiresome to the point that I'm losing interest in responding to these threads. It is not going to make a helluva lot of difference to me one way or the other how this is resolved, although, hell, sure, I'll take the lens. It's one of those BFD sorta deals to me.

But you soldier on.

For some reason this episode has struck a cord with you to the point where you must remain engaged even though it has no apparent bearing on you one way or another.

The world is full of stuff that rubs me the wrong way. People regularly behave in ways that disappoint me. But I am not surprised; that is just the way the world works and I can't change it.

What's YOUR problem?

ken

I'm just wondering...

I was informed that Dell was selling a 100-400 IS L lens for the
bargin basement price of $196.00.

I went to their site, and low and behold, there was the
advertisement for the 100-400 IS L lens... $196, along with a full
discription of this lens. And yes, there seems to have been a
manuf. # and Dell # which, unbeknown to me, was for a different
lens (hey, I'm just not up on Dell or Canon's product codes)

I then received not one, but TWO e-mails, one a confirmation that
Dell had received and accepted my order for a 100-400IS L lens,
price $196, and that it would be sent out no later then Dec. 14.

Today, I recieved an e-mail that my order has been delayed, and
that it will now be sent out no later then Dec. 29th.

Obviously, Dell now knows of the problem! Why isn't DELL
contactiing ME to let me know that they plan to send out a 75-300
lens, when they know full well that's NOT what I ordered?

Dell has my phone number, they have my e-mail address, and five
days have passed since I ordered this lens... WHY no
acknowledgement from Dell, of a mistake. It WAS Dell who made the
mistake, after all.

Even the e-mail today makes NO MENTION of a mistake, no mention
that a substitute lens will be sent (if that's what they plan to
do... who knows?)... and why is Dell attempting to get people to
cancel their orders? Why don't they simply cancel ALL of the
orders, if, as many on these boards seem to think, Dell has no
obligation to honor their offer?

By the way, Dell HAS billed my credit card, and recieved my money.
Why isn't DELL returning my money, and asking me if I want a crummy
75-300 lens instead of the 100-400IS they MUST know I ordered???

WHY NO MORAL INDIGNATION OVER DELL'S HANDELING OF THIS???

Just wondering....

--
The Sawtooth Wilderness is the most photogenic place on earth!

 

[RobE]

Don't you think Dell has more important things to deal with than a few photo buyers that tried to cash in on a typo?

I agree with you.

It takes two to tango.

Why hasn't Dell stepped up and done something definitive by
now?...............I think I know........they are a company in
business . They are not the Vatican. Business is buisness. They
are going to do what is best for their business". Consumers
should do what is best for themselves. It's not about morality, or
anything else.

It's a joint venture.

It's business, period.

they don't cancel, so not my fault.

Explain this with your moral..why Dell does not simply cancell all
these orders???

I will get flamed for this I am sure, but I am ashamed of the
attitude of many posters on this forum with respect to the Dell
100-400 pricing error. It is quite clear that Dell made a mistake
and have owned up to this. They appear in some cases to have
offered $100 compensation for the disappointment, which I would see
as very generous. I can even see that it was a good idea to take
advantage of the pricing mistake. But to try to screw Dell, or any
other company or individual who appears to have made an honest
error, in the way that some posters claim to be doing, tells me a
lot about the morality of those involved. Perhaps those who placed
an order for multiple lenses at a price they must have known was a
mistake, would see this "stealing" as another victimless crime, or
perhaps no kind of crime at all. I know exactly how they would
react if they were being shafted over an innocent error they
themselves might have made at sometime in their lives.
And no, I am not some christian do-gooder freak with a
holy-er-than-thou perspective, just a brit who is right now
disappointed with our cousins accross the pond.

--
ken from the UK

--
------------------------------------------
this is elfe language from Lord of the ring:
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel
Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send
them to me via email instead! thanks.

--
(See profile for equipment I own -- questions welcome.)