How far until we are at peak mirrorless?

[sportyaccordy]

What do you see as insufficient with even the best of the current mirrorless bodies and what should be improved?

Ergonomics primarily. The manufacturers want to make "sexy" instead of functional.

Also, the A7R III seems to be the only one that possibly has reasonable battery life and even that might not be as claimed.

AF needs to improve.

I'm not familiar with just how good EVF's have got, but they need to be incredible if they are to be used all day, every day to avoid eye strain. They also need to have zero lag. Are they there yet?

I dunno...are videographers long suffering in silence folk? Didn't we used to also complain about OVF eye strain? Oh wait, we did:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/1171817

Zero lag. When do we really need zero lag vs almost zero lag?

All the time. It’s tiring to watch with a delay.

I'm guessing you don't watch television then.

When we don't have 12-20 fps RAW or 60 fps 8MP and 30 fps 18MP jpeg shooting (GH5/G9) and have to nail the exact moment. Which you can still do with almost zero lag as long as it's consistent.

Spray and pray? No thanks. I’m not one for wading through hundreds of duffers to get the one frame. As it is I can take over 1,000 shots per concert and I doubt if I ever break two or three fps at the best of times. I never use continuous shooting. If I did, I’d fill up many cards in an evening and spend weeks wading through to find the nuggets.

Well, that settles it. Time to round up any camera with more than 3FPS and send it to the nearest landfill.

 

[Halina123]

How many years do you think we are off?

We've hit peak DSLR already.

What do you see as insufficient with even the best of the current mirrorless bodies and what should be improved?

Mirroless cameras peaked years ago with the Nikon 1 series.

Current cameras are just inferior knock offs.

 

[nigelht]

What do you see as insufficient with even the best of the current mirrorless bodies and what should be improved?

Ergonomics primarily. The manufacturers want to make "sexy" instead of functional.

Also, the A7R III seems to be the only one that possibly has reasonable battery life and even that might not be as claimed.

AF needs to improve.

I'm not familiar with just how good EVF's have got, but they need to be incredible if they are to be used all day, every day to avoid eye strain. They also need to have zero lag. Are they there yet?

I dunno...are videographers long suffering in silence folk? Didn't we used to also complain about OVF eye strain? Oh wait, we did:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/1171817

Zero lag. When do we really need zero lag vs almost zero lag?

All the time. It’s tiring to watch with a delay.

I shoot video with a 1-2 frame lag for a couple hours over a long performance. That's pretty good actually. External screens often lag 3+ frames.

Strikes me as an overblown objection. OVFs also cause eyestrain.

When we don't have 12-20 fps RAW or 60 fps 8MP and 30 fps 18MP jpeg shooting (GH5/G9) and have to nail the exact moment. Which you can still do with almost zero lag as long as it's consistent.

Spray and pray? No thanks. I’m not one for wading through hundreds of duffers to get the one frame. As it is I can take over 1,000 shots per concert and I doubt if I ever break two or three fps at the best of times. I never use continuous shooting. If I did, I’d fill up many cards in an evening and spend weeks wading through to find the nuggets.

And you need better than 24ms response time (lag) for shooting concerts why?

Sports shooters shoot "spray and pray" all the time...otherwise it wouldn't be an important feature on the top end pro cameras.

You CAN shoot high fps in short bursts. Even at 15 FPS I rarely got about 5-6 shots in a single burst.

That said, 300K shutter life and 2000 shots/game is only 150 games.

A 60 fps burst will almost always capture the decisive moment in soccer, football, lacrosse, volleyball, basketball etc.

Golf and baseball club/bat on ball not so much.

 

[Keith Holmes]

Imagine buying a laptop whose bluetooth or wifi worked with only the manufacturer's products...

...or buying a speaker thatcost $350, had no bluetooth or audio-in connections, and only worked with the manufacturer's Apple Music...

Wait, you're not seriously comparing Apple--with a market cap nearly 1% of the world's GDP--to Nikon, a piddling, centenarian has-been, are you?

With massive--and I do mean MASSIVE--demand-side economies of scale, Apple can afford to do things few others can.

 

[Midwest]

The 1910 Baker Electric car has about the same mileage range per charge as some electric cars do now, over a century later. You'd think the new ones would be going 10x farther.

Maybe not 10x farther, but they do go 10x faster.

So they have a more dynamic range.

They don't go 10x faster anywhere near as far, and make sure you don't run the heat or A/C. Bettery powered heat or air conditioning systems will burn up that juice much faster.

 

[stevo23]

How many years do you think we are off?

We've hit peak DSLR already.

What do you see as insufficient with even the best of the current mirrorless bodies and what should be improved?

Mirroless cameras peaked years ago with the Nikon 1 series.

Current cameras are just inferior knock offs.

LOL. That's rich.

 

[nigelht]

MILF is just an excuse for manufacturers and some sheep users to get people to reopen their wallets and “upgrade” their tools. People’s current tools (dslrs) are and have been working so well and I don’t see it suddenly not working in the future.

so sayeth a sony guy, who has an a9 on his dpr wish list, lol

we got people trying to rattle cages today

--
dan

Yes speaking from experience, I can say it’s all marketing hype. If one is already shooting with EF or F mount why leave it and spend more money?? Same as one who already shoots with Sony FE why spend and shoot with EF or F?? Simple

--
Too legit to quit.

There are PLENTY of legitimate reasons to switch from Canon or Nikon to mirrorless.

Perhaps one doesn't want to endure the proprietary chargers (costing hundreds of dollars!) when a simple USB charging option will do.

$35 if you are willing to buy 3rd party (for both the EP-5B and AC brick).

Even if you buy the genuine Nikon part it's $118 + $52 = $170.

I use the $99 case relay on multiple cameras rather than the Nikon. Came out to around $150 but includes a small 1200 mAh 7.4V battery. I use a RavPower 10000 mAh battery pack.

Even when tethering I prefer not to charge a battery in camera. The battery gets hot enough during use.

USB charging is certainly a nice to have but not a must have.

If you're just talking about the battery charger, one usually comes with the camera and costs $0.

What Nikon charges is EXTORTION, quite plainly. Nevertheless, DO YOU REALLY THINK anyone in their right mind is going to risk using a 3rd party power brick with their $$$ camera and flirt with voiding the warranty?

When was the last time your laptop shipped without a charger? How about your phone?

Nikon is quite the penny-pincher, isn't it?

Which Nikon camera doesn't come with a charger?

Folks use 3rd party batteries all the time in their $$$ cameras.

Or one might not wish to indulge in that time-honored time-waster--AF fine tuning.

Yet again, it could be the need for an actually useful silent shooting mode, which doesn't lock focus at the first frame and shoot at a laggard 6fps (as is the case with the clumsy D850).

Silent shooting is an area where MILCs have a distinct advantage. That said, only the A7RIII does better than the D850 at 40+ MP RAW. Rolling shutter (and AF) is better on the A7RIII. The A7RII shoots 5 fps for 22 frames.

Maybe one doesn't want to patronize a company so insecure it releases firmware updates that cripple usability of its bodies with top-tier 3rd party glass (NIKON).

You should really stop spreading FUD about that. Nikon updated the firmware to support their newer AF-P lenses and Sigma had a fix fairly quickly.

Nikon's firmware is known for being barebones and offering next to nothing in new features. In fact, it routinely breaks existing functionality with REPUTABLE 3rd party glass.

Support for AF-P lenses is not an important new feature?

Thank goodness Sigma and Tamron have come out with their docks to counteract such nefarious, anticompetitive behavior!

Neither Nikon or Canon is required to make sure firmware updates work with 3rd party lenses. They make sure they work with their own lenses.

Nikon isn't going out of their way to make Sigma lenses fail. They just don't make sure that they work.

Juxtapose that with Fuji, which routinely makes its older cameras "like new" with tangible, meaningful, and significant updates to functionality, and with Sony, whose bodies have no trouble being compatible with myriad different manufacturers' lenses, from Nikon to Canon to Sigma, and so on.

I guarantee you that Sony also doesn't make sure every new camera or firmware update works with every 3rd party lens. Sigma has updates for Sony as well and the 85 f1/4 art didn't work with the A77II without a firmware update.

 

[PhotoFactor]

Imagine buying a laptop whose bluetooth or wifi worked with only the manufacturer's products...

...or buying a speaker thatcost $350, had no bluetooth or audio-in connections, and only worked with the manufacturer's Apple Music...

Wait, you're not seriously comparing Apple--with a market cap nearly 1% of the world's GDP--to Nikon, a piddling, centenarian has-been, are you?

With massive--and I do mean MASSIVE--demand-side economies of scale, Apple can afford to do things few others can.

Well I was commenting on audacity of vendors to produce lock-in products, not market caps.

 

[nigelht]

The 1910 Baker Electric car has about the same mileage range per charge as some electric cars do now, over a century later. You'd think the new ones would be going 10x farther.

Maybe not 10x farther, but they do go 10x faster.

So they have a more dynamic range.

They don't go 10x faster anywhere near as far, and make sure you don't run the heat or A/C. Bettery powered heat or air conditioning systems will burn up that juice much faster.

The 244 mile range of the Bakers ($2800 1910 = $71K 2018) was carefully staged hypermilling at 12 mph. The Tesla Model S under the same conditions go 670 miles but at 23 mph. The Chevy Bolt ($36.6K) does 466 miles at 20-30 mph.

Loading…

electrek.co

Loading…

electrek.co

In real world conditions the Bolt does around 240 miles at highway speeds. The Tesla S 100D will do 335 miles.

The Tesla is 4,736 lbs. The Baker is 650 lbs. At 705 lbs the Schluckspecht E did 1013 miles.

At 120 mph the Tesla will go around 160 miles.

I know which I'd rather be driving

 

[Jonsi]

It's a bold statement claiming DSLR's won't improve now..

Here we go again

These forums have become toxic

Urk. Not sure why a question is considered toxic.

Wasn't a question.

Do tell about what improvements you'd like to see in DSLRs. We'd love to hear it.

What improvements on mirrorless are you wanting that couldn't be wanted on mirrored ?!

 

[Jonsi]

MILF is just an excuse for manufacturers and some sheep users to get people to reopen their wallets and “upgrade” their tools. People’s current tools (dslrs) are and have been working so well and I don’t see it suddenly not working in the future.

I don't think MILF has much to do with cameras.

Wallets, on the other hand...

 

[richiebee]

What do you see as insufficient with even the best of the current mirrorless bodies and what should be improved?

Ergonomics primarily. The manufacturers want to make "sexy" instead of functional.

Also, the A7R III seems to be the only one that possibly has reasonable battery life and even that might not be as claimed.

AF needs to improve.

I'm not familiar with just how good EVF's have got, but they need to be incredible if they are to be used all day, every day to avoid eye strain. They also need to have zero lag. Are they there yet?

I dunno...are videographers long suffering in silence folk? Didn't we used to also complain about OVF eye strain? Oh wait, we did:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/1171817

Zero lag. When do we really need zero lag vs almost zero lag?

All the time. It’s tiring to watch with a delay.

lol, no, that's not logical at all.

the problem with dslr owners is that they think that milc is like what they see with their smartphones... it's not, especially with the state of the art oled evfs, like what i have with my a9... there isn't any noticeable delay at all.

You should read my earlier message. It’s above.

When we don't have 12-20 fps RAW or 60 fps 8MP and 30 fps 18MP jpeg shooting (GH5/G9) and have to nail the exact moment. Which you can still do with almost zero lag as long as it's consistent.

Spray and pray? No thanks. I’m not one for wading through hundreds of duffers to get the one frame. As it is I can take over 1,000 shots per concert

shooting concerts is hardly a good example of a demanding environment, that would benefit from high fps rate.

So mirrorless is for sports shooters? LOL.

 

[nigelht]

When we don't have 12-20 fps RAW or 60 fps 8MP and 30 fps 18MP jpeg shooting (GH5/G9) and have to nail the exact moment. Which you can still do with almost zero lag as long as it's consistent.

Spray and pray? No thanks. I’m not one for wading through hundreds of duffers to get the one frame. As it is I can take over 1,000 shots per concert

shooting concerts is hardly a good example of a demanding environment, that would benefit from high fps rate.

So mirrorless is for sports shooters? LOL.

No, high FPS is for sports shooters unlike slowpoke concert shooters.

See? It's easy to dismiss photography you don't do.

Mirrorless is already for sports shooters. Just not pro sports shooters where 3-d tracking is important. There are many sports where Sony is good enough at the pro level but SIPS doesn't provide the same level of service as NPS or CPS, especially at the big venues like the Olympics.

When Canon or Nikon releases a pro mirrorless camera you'll see sports shooters welcome the higher frame rates.

 

[Keith Holmes]

Imagine buying a laptop whose bluetooth or wifi worked with only the manufacturer's products...

...or buying a speaker thatcost $350, had no bluetooth or audio-in connections, and only worked with the manufacturer's Apple Music...

Wait, you're not seriously comparing Apple--with a market cap nearly 1% of the world's GDP--to Nikon, a piddling, centenarian has-been, are you?

With massive--and I do mean MASSIVE--demand-side economies of scale, Apple can afford to do things few others can.

Well I was commenting on audacity of vendors to produce lock-in products, not market caps.

The point is that for some companies (e.g., Apple), it can be smart to raise switching costs for buyers.

For some other companies (I'm looking at you, Nikon), it can be a very dumb thing to do.

 

[osv]

All the time. It’s tiring to watch with a delay.

lol, no, that's not logical at all.

the problem with dslr owners is that they think that milc is like what they see with their smartphones... it's not, especially with the state of the art oled evfs, like what i have with my a9... there isn't any noticeable delay at all.

You should read my earlier message. It’s above.

i don't need to read false information twice, once is enough.

When we don't have 12-20 fps RAW or 60 fps 8MP and 30 fps 18MP jpeg shooting (GH5/G9) and have to nail the exact moment. Which you can still do with almost zero lag as long as it's consistent.

Spray and pray? No thanks. I’m not one for wading through hundreds of duffers to get the one frame. As it is I can take over 1,000 shots per concert

shooting concerts is hardly a good example of a demanding environment, that would benefit from high fps rate.

So mirrorless is for sports shooters? LOL.

not that you'd ever be able to understand, but i shoot sports at 15fps with ff mirrorless.

something that you can't do with any dslr.

--
dan

 

[Bradrobb]

Hi I

I thought we there awhile ago. My NEX 3 from 2010 has focus peaking.

Brad

 

[richiebee]

Perhaps one doesn't want to endure the proprietary chargers (costing hundreds of dollars!) when a simple USB charging option will do.

Original Nikon charger for the last four cameras I've bought (yes, they use the same battery) costs $49US. The battery is $59US. Both at B&H. How much is the battery and charger for the A7R III?

Can you use your A7R III while its charging if you go USB?

When was the last time your laptop shipped without a charger? How about your phone?

When was the last time I got a new Nikon camera without a battery charger? Um, never.

 

[Keith Holmes]

Perhaps one doesn't want to endure the proprietary chargers (costing hundreds of dollars!) when a simple USB charging option will do.

Original Nikon charger for the last four cameras I've bought (yes, they use the same battery) costs $49US. The battery is $59US. Both at B&H. How much is the battery and charger for the A7R III?

Can you use your A7R III while its charging if you go USB?

Of course you can. All newer sony starting with the A7Rii can be powered via USB while they are running.

And what's more, the camera can be connected to one of a host of USB power banks (e.g., Anker) to charge it while it is being used.

When was the last time your laptop shipped without a charger? How about your phone?

When was the last time I got a new Nikon camera without a battery charger? Um, never.

When was the last time you got a laptop without an AC adapter?

Yet, penny-pinching Nikon sees fit to sell its cameras without one.

 

[richiebee]

When was the last time you got a laptop without an AC adapter?

Yet, penny-pinching Nikon sees fit to sell its cameras without one.

All the Nikon DSLR's I've bought (D90, D610, D500, D850) have come with a battery charger. I'm not sure where you're getting yours from.

 

[FrancoD]

It's a bold statement claiming DSLR's won't improve now..

Here we go again

These forums have become toxic

Urk. Not sure why a question is considered toxic. Do tell about what improvements you'd like to see in DSLRs. We'd love to hear it.

A quick flip through your posts shows that you're basically an anti-DSLR mirrorless booster fanboy. We've seen hundreds like you and the last of them is as tiresome as the first.

As if you really want to see 'what improvements DSLR users want'.

There is also another word for it...