Help please with Photoshop vs. Windows colours

[chevysales]

I know this has been kicked around before, but please hear me out! I have tried searching here and on other web resources for an answer.

I'm getting some terrible results between the final image in Photoshop and when viewed in a non-colour profile application. Final intended destination is web, so I'm assuming non-colour aware browser. HOWEVER, I believe I understand the workflow process and I thought I was doing everything right. I guess not...

I'm working with one particular image, featuring pale skin tones. When I go to move the image out of Photoshop the skin tones become overly pink. Could I run my workflow by you and see if you can see any issues?

• Import RAW images from camera (set to Adobe RGB) to Lightroom
• Make edits in Lightroom
• Edit in Photoshop, working space ProPhoto RGB
• Make edits in Photoshop
• Convert to sRGB (colours still look good)
• Save for web - at this point the colours of the ORIGINAL look bad, as well as of the optimised target. They look identical to my eye.
• View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB also gives the same bad colours

Monitor is calibrated (and re-calibrated to rule out corrupt profile) using a Spyder2.

I'm clean out of ideas... If anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

Thanks.

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Andrew

the raw file as you know it has no color space per se so stay prophoto all the way and see if any difference.
your picking adobe in camera correct?

well raw editor in cs4 is prophoto space by default so stay prophoto until time to save for web then go srgb for that version leaving master copy in prophoto for future use/work... see if any difference.
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D-Seven Double 0's paired with 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200vr f2.8 an excellent combination for me.

 

[Poetstock]

I just noticed this article by G. Ballard and thought Chandra, and Andrew, and anyone else who tuned in might benefit : http://www.gballard.net/photoshop/srgb_wide_gamut.html
Seems to be what you guys are talking about. -Patrick

 

[ajchunt]

the raw file as you know it has no color space per se so stay prophoto all the way and see if any difference.
your picking adobe in camera correct?

well raw editor in cs4 is prophoto space by default so stay prophoto until time to save for web then go srgb for that version leaving master copy in prophoto for future use/work... see if any difference.

That's exactly my workflow already, though thanks for the suggestion. Quick summary of the rest of the thread - it's down to my wide gamut monitor. Colours will always look over-saturated in non-managed environment. Solution: trust the colour managed environment, and double-check if need be on a standard monitor.

Thanks

--
Andrew

 

[C Wills]

That was very helpful. I do appreciate your time and experience with this issue.

You're welcome. Glad it helped.

I had one more question if you have time:

When you are talking about wide gamut monitors are you referring to the ones that are at, or close to, 100% of AdobeRGB?

When I noticed this over-saturation problem on my own monitor, I started researching it and would read about wide-gamut monitors having this problem. So, I concluded that that must be what I have, and read what I'm suppose to do about it. So, that's what I do. I haven't dug into the technical info about it. I only understand the basics.

And if so, how are you able to see to edit your images in the Prophoto space? This is confusing to me. If the monitor can't see out there.....?

It's confusing to me too, so I don't dig that much into it. Here's some very simple facts, and my own take on it based on these:

• sRGB has the smallest gamut of the color spaces. Adobe RGB (aRGB) is larger and Prophoto is even larger than aRGB. That's a fact. It's not debated.
• If you work in argb or prophoto RGB, then you need to Convert to srgb prior to uploading to the web. That is not debated either.
• Once you Convert to srgb, whatever you 'lose' you can't get back by just Converting back to argb or Prophoto. That's a fact also.
• Some printers apparently can produce the colors that an argb image can support that an srgb image would have 'lost'. Something like that.
• The industry makes advances in this area all the time and I don't know what the future technology will be capable of.

So, I personally conclude, that I want to work in as largest gamut as possible, figuring IF it gives me an advantage with my prints, than I want that. I use to use Prophoto, with this thinking in mind. But, then I read some articles that showed that their really can be some problems with that color space (I can't remember what they are, but I got the jest of it), so I decided to back off and use argb. I figure it's a nice compromise. LOL.

So, that's sort of my very simple minded way of looking at it. I may dig deeper into it someday, but right now, my prints match my monitor nearly spot on, so I'm happy. And I really don't like reading deep into all the techinical stuff. It's so boring.

--
Chandra

 

[C Wills]

Yes this is good info. The article that I linked to in my first post is written by the same person. (This one is a follow up to that one).

Over time, I would see people post a link to that first article. Everytime I went to it, I thought "Ugg, I don't want to read all of that! And also go thru installing a Firefox....! Yuk."

Then, one day, I broke down and installed Firefox (and enabled the Color Management in it) and worked my way thru that article. (it doesn't make any sense if you don't follow along in a color managed browser. But, if you do, things start to click. Or that was the way it was for me).
Now, I am one of the people that post a link to that article. lol

Here it is again:
http://www.gballard.net/...psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html

I just noticed this article by G. Ballard and thought Chandra, and Andrew, and anyone else who tuned in might benefit : http://www.gballard.net/photoshop/srgb_wide_gamut.html
Seems to be what you guys are talking about. -Patrick

--
Chandra

 

[Poetstock]

I think I'll go out and take pictures. Best to you Chandra. -Patrick

 

[MasterOfGoingFaster]

• Some printers apparently can produce the colors that an argb image can support that an srgb image would have 'lost'. Something like that.

The latest Epson 7900 and 9900 have a color space that extends beyond Adobe RGB. ProPhoto should be used for those printers, otherwise those colors are lost.

In fact, I suggest using ProRGB simply because the next printer you buy may extend outside Adobe RGB and you'll wish you had not thrown away that color data.
--
Ken Elliott
Equipment in profile.

 

[MasterOfGoingFaster]

...how are you able to see to edit your images in the Prophoto space? This is confusing to me. If the monitor can't see out there.....?

We use is a large color space and large bit depth, not because we can display that, but because we don't want rounding errors and we don't want to clip colors that could fall outside our color space. You might not see them today, but we don't want to throw that data away because future monitors and printers will (to some degree).

Adobe RGB was created because sRGB could not hold colors that could be printed in 1998. Some printers already exceed that space today. ProPhoto has a larger color space and can hold colors that would have been clipped in Adobe RGB.

Your camera can capture colors that are outside the sRGB or aRBG color space. ProPhoto can almost contain all those colors, so you are discarding less data.

Think of it this way: Color Space is how large your ruler is, and bit-depth is how many number you can have on your ruler. If you have a small ruler, you can't measure large items. If you make the ruler larger (but with the same number of gradations) you can measure larger items, but the accuracy is lowered. But if you increase the length of the ruler and increase the number of gradations, you can measure large items and (perhaps) increase the accuracy.

ProPhoto is a larger ruler. 8 bit-per-pixel (bpp) limits you to 256 shades per color, while 16bpp gives you 65,536 shades per color. Using 16bpp lets you process the colors without visible banding (it does occur but is too slight to be noticed given the huge range of colors). Using ProPhoto means you don't throw away colors that can't fit inside sRGB or Adobe RGB.

Good writeup here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/prophoto-rgb.shtml

--
Ken Elliott
Equipment in profile.