Global vs stacked sensors

[Khalaful]

For 90+% of stills photography, the rolling sensor is better at this point, both at low and at high ISO values, and the gap should remain for some time, maybe two or three sensor iterations, or Adelaide.

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

Seth Miranda has mentioned while studio flash can be utilised, test shots to establish a sync time delay are needed for each flash unit.

Yes - global shutters are new technology with some plusses - though as of now many minuses.

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.



The max sync speed is still 1/80,000 even on f/1.8 or faster in future firmware update. Profoto also synced at 1/80,000 by other YouTubers.

 

[mosswings]

Sony a9 III: Global shutter comes with an image quality cost: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)

A good step, and hopefully future iterations will only improve from this.

I need to have a proper look on my computer but it seems that my predictions based on smaller native ISO range (lower limit was increased and upper one decreased cimpared to A9 II) and publicly available information about industrial global shutter sensors were confirmed. Both full-well capacity and high ISO performance are worse compared to a rolling shutter sensor.

For 90+% of stills photography, the rolling sensor is better at this point, both at low and at high ISO values, and the gap should remain for some time, maybe two or three sensor iterations, or Adelaide.

Adelaide?

 

[MattPointZero]

https://petapixel.com/2024/01/04/th...-comes-at-a-noticeable-cost-to-image-quality/

Sorry if this has been linked already, it was a long thread by the time I found it.

The A9iii has obsoleted nothing. Cool tool for a specific job with some significant trade offs. We are still several generations of body away from everything having GS with no downsides I would guess.

 

[batleys]

https://petapixel.com/2024/01/04/th...-comes-at-a-noticeable-cost-to-image-quality/

Sorry if this has been linked already, it was a long thread by the time I found it.

The A9iii has obsoleted nothing. Cool tool for a specific job with some significant trade offs. We are still several generations of body away from everything having GS with no downsides I would guess.

It is curious because global shutter is quite established technology and is used in security and industrial cameras such as ANPR systems around the world . I guess the new bit here is the fact the resolution is much higher here than in many established industrial global shutter camera sensors that have around 3 to 5 MPx and that is causing the trade off? Ie the amount of data that has to be transferred within a short period of time off the sensor.

--
Simon
https://www.flickr.com/people/suffolkimages/

 

[MCLV]

https://petapixel.com/2024/01/04/th...-comes-at-a-noticeable-cost-to-image-quality/

Sorry if this has been linked already, it was a long thread by the time I found it.

The A9iii has obsoleted nothing. Cool tool for a specific job with some significant trade offs. We are still several generations of body away from everything having GS with no downsides I would guess.

It is curious because global shutter is quite established technology and is used in security and industrial cameras such as ANPR systems around the world . I guess the new bit here is the fact the resolution is much higher here than in many established industrial global shutter camera sensors that have around 3 to 5 MPx and that is causing the trade off? Ie the amount of data that has to be transferred within a short period of time off the sensor.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

For 90+% of stills photography, the rolling sensor is better at this point, both at low and at high ISO values, and the gap should remain for some time, maybe two or three sensor iterations, or Adelaide.

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

Seth Miranda has mentioned while studio flash can be utilised, test shots to establish a sync time delay are needed for each flash unit.

Yes - global shutters are new technology with some plusses - though as of now many minuses.

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

The max sync speed is still 1/80,000 even on f/1.8 or faster in future firmware update. Profoto also synced at 1/80,000 by other YouTubers.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

The max sync speed is still 1/80,000 even on f/1.8 or faster in future firmware update. Profoto also synced at 1/80,000 by other YouTubers.

I put more credence in a flash expect like Seth Miranda who had a demo body for just 2 hours than in many other YouTubers.

 

[Khalaful]

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

The max sync speed is still 1/80,000 even on f/1.8 or faster in future firmware update. Profoto also synced at 1/80,000 by other YouTubers.

I put more credence in a flash expect like Seth Miranda who had a demo body for just 2 hours than in many other YouTubers.

It has nothing to do with credence but facts. Beside, I dont see any videos of him talking about Sony a9iii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdwJ1gFEx0Y

Wescott FJ400 already works at 1/80,000. There are a lot of videos testing a9iii with Profoto transmitters. Updating firmware to support a9iii is just a matter of time from major brands such as Profoto and Godox.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/72714...orld-s-first-full-frame-global-shutter-camera

"Sony says there will also be a firmware update for the a9 III, adding the ability to continuously shoot with shutter speeds at up to 1/80,000 sec."

The sync limit with fast lenses for continuous shooting mode will be solved with future firmware update.

 

[batleys]

https://petapixel.com/2024/01/04/th...-comes-at-a-noticeable-cost-to-image-quality/

Sorry if this has been linked already, it was a long thread by the time I found it.

The A9iii has obsoleted nothing. Cool tool for a specific job with some significant trade offs. We are still several generations of body away from everything having GS with no downsides I would guess.

It is curious because global shutter is quite established technology and is used in security and industrial cameras such as ANPR systems around the world . I guess the new bit here is the fact the resolution is much higher here than in many established industrial global shutter camera sensors that have around 3 to 5 MPx and that is causing the trade off? Ie the amount of data that has to be transferred within a short period of time off the sensor.

No, industrial sensors with global shutter also exhibit worse IQ than their rolling shutter counterparts.

And Sony already developed 4 generations of industrial global shutter sensors. There is no indication that they are catching up with the rolling shutter ones.

No, indeed, global shutters are established technology… but they tend to serve very different use cases. Be interesting to see if they come together in time, or remain a seperate tree, such as with specialised mono and colour sensors.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

The max sync speed is still 1/80,000 even on f/1.8 or faster in future firmware update. Profoto also synced at 1/80,000 by other YouTubers.

I put more credence in a flash expect like Seth Miranda who had a demo body for just 2 hours than in many other YouTubers.

It has nothing to do with credence but facts. Beside, I dont see any videos of him talking about Sony a9iii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdwJ1gFEx0Y

Maybe you have looked close enough.

Most using electronic flash know there is a time delay during which flash output builds to to a peak followed by a "n shaped" peak before subsiding - and too short a shutter speed prevents much of the flash output being recorded.

Seth has discussed the challenges and Sony methodology of slowing shutter activation after pressing the shutter to coincide with peak electronic flash output.

Many electronic flash units require an exposure time of at least 1/1000 duration to record the full flash output - assuming appropriate shutter delay can be arranged to coincide with the flash output.

In case you do not know Nikon flash has been able to sync at 1/41,600 for around 15 years (agreed with restricted output) - likely mirrored to a smaller extent with the Sony flash unit likely to have a 1/12,000 full sync speed.

Nikon potential flash sync ability.



--
Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is similar to learning to play a piano - it takes practice to develop skill in either activity.

 

[Khalaful]

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

The max sync speed is still 1/80,000 even on f/1.8 or faster in future firmware update. Profoto also synced at 1/80,000 by other YouTubers.

I put more credence in a flash expect like Seth Miranda who had a demo body for just 2 hours than in many other YouTubers.

It has nothing to do with credence but facts. Beside, I dont see any videos of him talking about Sony a9iii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdwJ1gFEx0Y

Maybe you have looked close enough.

Most using electronic flash know there is a time delay during which flash output builds to to a peak followed by a "n shaped" peak before subsiding - and too short a shutter speed prevents much of the flash output being recorded.

Seth has discussed the challenges and Sony methodology of slowing shutter activation after pressing the shutter to coincide with peak electronic flash output.

Many electronic flash units require an exposure time of at least 1/1000 duration to record the full flash output - assuming appropriate shutter delay can be arranged to coincide with the flash output.

In case you do not know Nikon flash has been able to sync at 1/41,600 for around 15 years (agreed with restricted output) - likely mirrored to a smaller extent with the Sony flash unit likely to have a 1/12,000 full sync speed.

Nikon potential flash sync ability.

So that's why Sony added a feature to change the delay and major brands can update their transmitter to support A9iii. Beside, the fast flash duration is already well known among photographers and what does it have to do with my point? You are ignoring what I'm saying and those limitation you mentioned are false.



What's the problem?

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

So that's why Sony added a feature to change the delay and major brands can update their transmitter to support A9iii

First the Sony feature is not "automatic" - with no equivalent of TTL.

Second there is a need to calibrate individual flash units - apparently with no mixing of brands or models - for good results - before starting a session.

Third - whether other brands will adjust their delay, particularly for existing products, for a niche product not best (or capable) of highest resolution at 64/100 ISO likely to be required for fashion type work remains to be seen.

What's the problem?

Many seasoned photographed recognised the advantages for a global shutter for some sports/action photography.

Many seasoned photographers are becoming increasingly aware the current limitations of global shutters may be an issue for most more general stills photography.

 

[Khalaful]

So that's why Sony added a feature to change the delay and major brands can update their transmitter to support A9iii

First the Sony feature is not "automatic" - with no equivalent of TTL.

Even now, it works fine.

Second there is a need to calibrate individual flash units - apparently with no mixing of brands or models - for good results - before starting a session.

Who even mix transmitters?

Third - whether other brands will adjust their delay, particularly for existing products, for a niche product not best (or capable) of highest resolution at 64/100 ISO likely to be required for fashion type work remains to be seen.

They have to adapt new technologies especially since it will change how it works.

What's the problem?

Many seasoned photographed recognised the advantages for a global shutter for some sports/action photography.

Many seasoned photographers are becoming increasingly aware the current limitations of global shutters may be an issue for most more general stills photography.

That's not the point. You said the max sync speed is limited based on the transmitter and lens so I provided proofs. You are the one who said 1/80,000 is not possible with fast lenses and Sony transmitter. Why do you keep changing the topic?

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

First the Sony feature is not "automatic" - with no equivalent of TTL.

Even now, it works fine.

Does it?

Second there is a need to calibrate individual flash units - apparently with no mixing of brands or models - for good results - before starting a session.

Who even mix transmitters?

Who does not often use flask units of different outputs - maybe a large soft box and a hair light?.

You are the one who said 1/80,000 is not possible with fast lenses and Sony transmitter.

I have not said that - though it should be obvious full flash output and 1/80,000 flash output cannot be synonymous.

So far Sony specifications set a full output speed of 1/12,000 with a single Sony unit.

 

[Khalaful]

First the Sony feature is not "automatic" - with no equivalent of TTL.

Even now, it works fine.

Does it?

Second there is a need to calibrate individual flash units - apparently with no mixing of brands or models - for good results - before starting a session.

Who even mix transmitters?

Who does not often use flask units of different outputs - maybe a large soft box and a hair light?.

You are the one who said 1/80,000 is not possible with fast lenses and Sony transmitter.

I have not said that - though it should be obvious full flash output and 1/80,000 flash output cannot be synonymous.

So far Sony specifications set a full output speed of 1/12,000 with a single Sony unit.

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000) and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

You said so and I proved it wrong. Clearly, you are not checking.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

Limitations mentioned in the Sony specification are a fastest shutter speed of 1/16,000 with lenses of f1.8 or faster (Z8/9 1/32000)

Apologies fior a partial error here.

in my earlier summary.

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/interchangeable-lens-cameras/ilce-9m3/specifications#features

See note 13. The 16,000 shutter speed limitation is lenses faster than f1.8.

There are numerous lenses with apertures faster than f1.8.

and a fastest sync speed of 1/12000 with a single Sony flash.

On re-reading the Sony information Note 3 strongly implies full flash output with a Sony external flash is 1/500.

I have previously indicated why full flash output is likely to be possible at as fast as or faster than 1/1000.

There is some though not much flash output at 1/80,000; for a different reason though with a similar effect to HSS based on Nikon 1/250 or 1/200 where 1/41,600 equivalent is available.

Sony flash output at 1/12,000 is likely about 1/20th of full output - i.e. reduced by around 4.33 stops from full output.

Flash output at 1/80,00 should be around 128th of full output - about 1 stop better than Nikon HSS.