G7 Thoughts

[stephaneonline]

Another very well said statement. But, off I go to try taking a
picture of a moving subject with a G7 in a dark room lit by two
100watt bulbs while I'm wearing roller blades.

LOL, Looking forward to your result, try not to hurt yourself ;-)

--
Stephane

 

[PixelMinded]

First things come first Stephane (fundamental vs bonus features) and an existential difference (the feature exist or not) is more important than a relative difference (higher quality or quantity in a feature).

When you check the pros and cons of the G7, u find that it's pro's tend to be more bonus points (eg movie mode) and relative differences (eg 207,000 vs 115,000 LCD res.) and its cons tend to be more in fundamental (eg RAW) and existential features (eg flip&twist and RAW againg). In short its advantages are minor points and the disadvantages are major points. As such, it's very easy to attack and difficult to defend. The list of advantages over the old G's that u give is true but many would tell u just add digic III to the G6 and it'd be fine for me.

I first bought the A610 because it had all the new features that the G6 and Pro1 lacked, then used it and felt I want something more serious. So I bought the Pro1, and found that the fundamental features it has and 610 lacks make much more difference then the new light-weight features which I initially favoured. Now when I look at a camera I check first the fundamental features if they are not all there the bonus ones are meaningless to me. A nice movie mode will not make up for the lack of RAW as far as I am concerned.

No to a sensor smaller than 2/3"

No point & shoot have a big sensor as far as I know except the R1
and maybe the Ricoh GR ?

Also the upcoming Sigma DP1

No to no flip&twist

Debatable, do you prefer to be able to flip the screen or actually
see a difference when trying to focus manually ?

I use MF a lot with the MF-point option (centre frame magnification), but if I want a really accurate focus I do it by trial and error (review experimental shots with high magnification until I get it optimum focus). Even the 2" 230,000 LCD of Pro1 is not enough if u want the exact focus from first time (I can get a good one from first time but not the sharpest one for 100% viewing of the photo later on PC). I hope on the G7's 2.5" LCD this will be easier. Flip&twist OTOH has many uses (last I had the camera on a tripod higher than my eye-level in order to see the LCD and frame I had to flip 'n' twist it.. many many other uses).

• USB 2 v.s USB 1 (almost 4 time the speed in transfer)

Most people buy a card-reader and u can easily find a USB2 card-reader these days. The A610 has USB2 and I never connected it to the PC directly, a card is much more convenient.

 

[stephaneonline]

When you check the pros and cons of the G7, u find that it's pro's
tend to be more bonus points (eg movie mode) and relative
differences (eg 207,000 vs 115,000 LCD res.) and its cons tend to
be more in fundamental (eg RAW) and existential features (eg
flip&twist and RAW againg).

Again, it's debatable, is RAW more important than Movie mode ?

Is RAW more important than being able to shoot more than 14 photos in continuous mode ?

For many people it wouldn't.

The three complain against the G7 are the lack of RAW, Flip screen and F2.0.

• F2.0 is a real advantage, I'll give you that.
• Flip screen, I do use mine on the S3 but for the most part, I find that it's not that important to me. Couple with the EVF, I spend too much time flipping, hitting the display button, looking where the f#$% is the display.
• RAW ?!? Well I wonder how many people that say the will never buy a camera without it shoot all the time with it. Do they trash photo not taken with RAW ? Do they shoot their vacation with RAW ????

I wouldn't say that a faster camera that can shoot more photo continuously with a better macro mode, better ISO speed, faster access to ISO is not an improvement. And yes I do thing these are not small feature but important ones, more so that a flipping screen.

Do you really believe that the three feature missing from the G7 are more important than what it has more ? In photographic feature alone, the G7 as more to compensate IMHO.

BTW, I do need USB 2 ON the camera since I transfer from the camera to an iPod when traveling, I wouldn't want to do that with USB 1.

--
Stephane

 

[Wildlife Guy]

I am placing my order for the G7 this evening. This camera is in addition to my DSLR's (5d & 1ds) and will be carried in my briefcase on business trips. The only missing feature for me is RAW. I shoot RAW 100% of the time on my DSLR's. I learned my lesson to sue RAW the first time I screwed up white balnce on a model shoot and spent 3 hours correcting JPEGS in PS. I persoanlly believe a camear at this price and capability level should include RAW. The f2.0 would be nice, but yields a narrow DOF and will probably not be heavily missed. My DSLR's do not have flip screens so I will not "miss" this feature or consider the camera retarded (I think flip screens have a "clunky" feel). I have reviewed all of the P&S options and this camera seems to come the closest to giving me some of my DSLR features while fitting in my briefcase.

 

[stephaneonline]

I am placing my order for the G7 this evening. This camera is in
addition to my DSLR's (5d & 1ds) and will be carried in my
briefcase on business trips. The only missing feature for me is
RAW. I shoot RAW 100% of the time on my DSLR's.

Nice to hear someone who use RAW all the time saying that he's buying the G7. I agree that RAW would be nice to have but it's a P&S after all and might not NEED it to be a good camera.

The f2.0 would be nice, but yields a narrow DOF and will
probably not be heavily missed.

Funny, it's the biggest reason for me to thing the F2 would have been nice, a narrow DOF.

My DSLR's do not have flip screens
so I will not "miss" this feature or consider the camera retarded
(I think flip screens have a "clunky" feel). I have reviewed all

I've been trying to come up with a good description for a flipping LCD, that's the best one yet.

of the P&S options and this camera seems to come the closest to
giving me some of my DSLR features while fitting in my briefcase.

Have you tried the G7 yet ? I've tried it yesterday and the control dial is really nice. Have a nice time with your G7, I'm looking forward to my own

--
Stephane

 

[PixelMinded]

Again, it's debatable, is RAW more important than Movie mode ?

1-Old G's had movie mode it just wasn't as impressive as G7's (so this is a relative difference) vs old G's had RAW, G7 doesn't (an existential difference). Also this a feature associated with DigicIII, they could have put DigicIII on G6 and then all the nice things of the old G would be preserved and most of the G7 bonuses could be had as well.

2-RAW concerns still photography the main point of a camera like G7. Movie is a bonus point.

3-RAW is not important for u and others OK, but not important to the G7 NO (that's a different story). As I said before camera models are unmodifiable packages, so when Canon make a model without RAW, those who want RAW will never be able to enjoy it on that model. And considering that adding RAW is easy and cheap, it is unforgivable for Canon not include it.

Very important to recognise other people's needs when we talk about the features that a model should have had. If this was a "what camera should I buy" thread, then OK the only things that matter are the OP's needs. I've been saying all the time here on this thread for example that hotshoe and f2 are important, though for me personally they aren't (at least for now I am not planning to buy an external flash and haven't so far used f2.4/2.8 on my Pro1/A610 that much to think that I will miss f2).

Is RAW more important than being able to shoot more than 14 photos
in continuous mode ?

Again relative vs existential difference. And again it's thanks to the Digic III, so Canon could have easily added this advantage to the older ones instead of giving with one hand and taking more with the other.

For many people it wouldn't.

Even if RAW sympathizers are a minority, there is no harm in including RAW in the camera for them.

• Flip screen, I do use mine on the S3 but for the most part, I

find that it's not that important to me.

I don't use it most of the time but when I need it, I badly need it. I would imagine that anyone who uses his/her camera for different situations, will need it in some cases.

• RAW ?!? Well I wonder how many people that say the will never buy

a camera without it shoot all the time with it. Do they trash photo
not taken with RAW ? Do they shoot their vacation with RAW ????

There are many I am certainly one of them and heck u had another one (David M.) replyingu before me.

I wouldn't say that a faster camera that can shoot more photo
continuously with a better macro mode,

1CM vs 5 CM has been the norm since 610/620 (DigicII), it makes a big difference but again there is no contradiction between adding this while preserving old advantages.

better ISO speed,

That is a BIG JOKE.

Half of it has to do with relabelling previous ISO100 to ISO 200, so ISO800 on G7 is the same as ISO400 on A610 (one of the last models where the old scale was still in use). Some posters here on this forum even tested A610/620 together and reported that with the same shutter and aperture the 610 seems to be 1/3 to 1/2 stop faster than the 620:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=15426218

So the numbers they give to different ISO steps are just vary from camera to camera, the higher the megapixel the more exagerated the ISO labelling is.

The other half of the joke is the ultra-aggressive noise reduction (NR) needed on all the new 10 MP cameras and the lack of RAW means that u can't switch NR off, u have to live with the watercolour effect. Give me back the grainy ISO400 of the G6, it is said to have the best balance between NR and details (A610 is also good but only 5MP. 620 has 7MP but heavy NR). So the G7's ISO 1600 is 800 if not less compared to G6/A610 and with a terrible and obligatory NR.

faster
access to ISO is not an improvement.

This affects ur comfort only (u can still change the ISO on other models) So it is a relative difference (in the quality of comfort).

And yes I do thing these are
not small feature but important ones, more so that a flipping
screen.

I disagree with u here. Flip&twist opens a whole host of possibilities that are otherwise inaccessible. Having a button for a function instead of menu is less important 'cause u can still do the function with the menu.

Do you really believe that the three feature missing from the G7
are more important than what it has more ? In photographic feature
alone, the G7 as more to compensate IMHO.

I think that Canon should add new features without subtracting from the G-series' legacy or else not call the new model G in the first place.

BTW, I do need USB 2 ON the camera since I transfer from the camera
to an iPod when traveling, I wouldn't want to do that with USB 1.

That's a good point but anyhow many of the new features of the G7 are natural developement (associated with digic-III). No matter how the design of the camera was they could have been included (this goes also for movie/macro/continuous modes). For example the 3-minute video-clip limit was associated with digic I, 1MB limit with Digic-II models, and now digic-III models limited only by the free memory/power u have.

 

[PixelMinded]

YES! You can indeed remotely control your G7. Canon calls the
program "CameraWindow" and it uses the usb connection to completely
control your camera (full manual control with zoom and everything).
It comes on the CD with the camera. I just took this very nice
shot of myself 2 mins ago by hitting F1. The hard part was getting
just the right expression on my face.

Isn't this "CameraWindow" the same as the "remote capture" option supported by some of the more advanced PowerShots (Pro1, G6, S2 IS, S3 IS, S80, S70, A620, A520)? I was shocked after buying the A610 to learn that there is this 'hidden' difference between it and the 620.

The new name "CameraWindow" suggests that there may be something new in the G7. Could be that CameraWindow is an alternative to the PSRemote (3rd party software) advertised here: http://www.breezesys.com/PSRemote/index.htm

The IR remote control (included in Pro1/G6 boxes) is more convenient than connecting to a PC. But this CameraWindow gives more control if it really allows controlling everything as 'cowtung' is saying.

 

[stephaneonline]

Again, it's debatable, is RAW more important than Movie mode ?

2-RAW concerns still photography the main point of a camera like
G7. Movie is a bonus point.

OK, lest say the G7 has kept RAW but remove the movie mode altogether, would people still be upset ?

that model. And considering that adding RAW is easy and cheap, it
is unforgivable for Canon not include it.

I keep seeing that argument but does anybody know if it's really cheap to add ?

Is there a licescing to pay to add RAW ? Is the code source of the format Open-source ?

Is RAW more important than being able to shoot more than 14 photos
in continuous mode ?

Again relative vs existential difference. And again it's thanks to
the Digic III, so Canon could have easily added this advantage to
the older ones instead of giving with one hand and taking more with
the other.

I believe the asking price for the G6 when it came out was more in the ballpark of 900 US $ ?

Maybe that why the couldn't do the same camera AND put the other advantage in it.

I still believe that it is a better camera because of it's increase portability and increase usability, a camera is a tool and as such, better handling WILL make it a better tool. Having a fast sutter, IS and continuous mode IS a great advantage for reportage-style photography, you simply CAN'T shoot RAW at a decent speed on any P&S period.

Let's agree to disagree, you won't buy the G7 and I'll enjoy mine when it arrive

--
Stephane

 

[PixelMinded]

I keep seeing that argument but does anybody know if it's really
cheap to add ?
Is there a licescing to pay to add RAW ? Is the code source of the
format Open-source ?

It is definitely cheap almost nothing. The CRW and CR2 formats are Canon's own proprietary formats. The software pkg that I received with my A610 included the RAW converter which I am using with the Pro1's CRW files. The 610 doesn't support RAW of course but the software pkg on the "Canon Digital Camera Solutions CD" is standard for all PowerShots apparently. The only cost is to include it in camera menu and allow it to be stored on the memory card. In all digital cameras the data is originally in RAW and then converted to JPG or TIF if needed or stored as it is in RAW if the camera support that.

It would also be very easy if Canon wanted to make 2 versions of G7 one with and one without RAW (if the version without RAW is cheaper or whatever). Considering that they don't have to do any R&D or alter the design of the camera in any way in order to add it. May be RAW is the only feature that makes a huge difference for some users and yet is just a simple software feature for the manufacturers to include in their desins. But obviously Canon doesn't want to do that anymore in their PowerShots models.

Is RAW more important than being able to shoot more than 14 photos
in continuous mode ?

Again relative vs existential difference. And again it's thanks to
the Digic III, so Canon could have easily added this advantage to
the older ones instead of giving with one hand and taking more with
the other.

I believe the asking price for the G6 when it came out was more in
the ballpark of 900 US $ ?
Maybe that why the couldn't do the same camera AND put the other
advantage in it.
I still believe that it is a better camera because of it's increase
portability and increase usability, a camera is a tool and as such,
better handling WILL make it a better tool. Having a fast sutter,
IS and continuous mode IS a great advantage for reportage-style
photography, you simply CAN'T shoot RAW at a decent speed on any
P&S period.

I believe the difference in price may be more due to the change in prices in the market in the last two years more than due to difference in cost of production of G6 versus G7.

Let's agree to disagree, you won't buy the G7 and I'll enjoy mine
when it arrive

Agreed and I really wish u nice time and photos with it. Hey Stephane I love the photo in ur signature, when u get ur G7 let's see in full size shots like that one taken by the G7.

Stephane

 

[KENTGA]

I mader my first G7 pix last night and they were very grainy and had poor white balance, but what else would you expect at a Journey and Def Leppard concert? Actually, I was very pleased with most of the shots and the ones we made of "us" before the concert turned out great. As I mentioned in a previous thread, I have a 5D and an XT. As another person wrote, I shoot all of my DSLR pix RAW, and I can live without RAW in the G7.

What I like about the G7:
1. The large, bright LCD.

2. Up to 1600 ISO for things like concerts. I made the shots at the concert at 800 & 1600.
3. It fits in my pocket.
4. IS and 10mp.
5. Good layout of camera controls, good menus and ease of use.
6. Optical viewfinder & flash hot-shoe.
7. Solid "feel" (metal- not plastic)

 

[stephaneonline]

Agreed and I really wish u nice time and photos with it. Hey
Stephane I love the photo in ur signature, when u get ur G7 let's
see in full size shots like that one taken by the G7.

Thank for the compliment.

I would like to do the same photo and compare but it was taken in Peru on my last vacation so I doubt I will be able to take the same picture ;-)

I'll probably post small pictures with a link to the full res when I have my G7, you'll have to wait a couple of weeks, I still have to order it and it's been raining here (Montréal) for almost a full month :-(

--
Stephane

 

[Wildlife Guy]

Stephane,

I didn't mean to say that narrow DOF wasn't important in some of my photos (portrait, macro, etc.), but I can live without it based on my use of this camera. I was driving myself crazy with the tradeoffs of the samll format vs. DSLR. My wife finally told me to get over it - I was not going to find a P&S that matched my DSLR. I missed some beautiful sunsets and interesting factory shots by not having a camera on several recent business trips. I played with a G7 at a local camera shop and really liked the feel nad controls. You are right about the dials having a nice feel. I ordered the camera thorugh B&H and it should be here on Tuesday. I am leaving Tuesday afternoon for another trip and hope the camera arrives in the mroning.

BTW - I bought a 220ex flash for travel with my 5d and it should be a nice match for the G7. I am going to give the camera a try with my strobe setup and a model when I have some time - just for grins. I am curious as to how good an image you can produce in controlled light.

I am placing my order for the G7 this evening. This camera is in
addition to my DSLR's (5d & 1ds) and will be carried in my
briefcase on business trips. The only missing feature for me is
RAW. I shoot RAW 100% of the time on my DSLR's.

Nice to hear someone who use RAW all the time saying that he's
buying the G7. I agree that RAW would be nice to have but it's a
P&S after all and might not NEED it to be a good camera.

The f2.0 would be nice, but yields a narrow DOF and will
probably not be heavily missed.

Funny, it's the biggest reason for me to thing the F2 would have
been nice, a narrow DOF.

My DSLR's do not have flip screens
so I will not "miss" this feature or consider the camera retarded
(I think flip screens have a "clunky" feel). I have reviewed all

I've been trying to come up with a good description for a flipping
LCD, that's the best one yet.

of the P&S options and this camera seems to come the closest to
giving me some of my DSLR features while fitting in my briefcase.

Have you tried the G7 yet ? I've tried it yesterday and the control
dial is really nice. Have a nice time with your G7, I'm looking
forward to my own

--
Stephane