G11 disappoints - some examples

[Gamestheory]

Dear Ring A,

Thanks for your thoughts but I don't agree about what's wrong with the second photo. It's not a matter of focus here so much as the density of the picture. The G3 pic is a bit soft but there's a nice density to the colour; doesn't matter that the figures at the far end of the table are dark: that's a reasonable depiction of what the scene looked like. The G11 picture, by contrast, is pale and thin, and there's no depth to the scene. The far end of the table looks a lot nearer than in the G3 picture.

It's true that I'm disenchanted, and I'm only too keen to put right on this, but what you've said so far doesn't, in my view, correctly address the problem. If, however, you think I'm wrong about my colour/depth/density observation (which I see in the other pictures too), please try me again.

 

[englishman]

This thread is another perfect example of 2 things:

• auto mode on this camera sucks
• people trying to shove their opinions down others' throats

For more examples of threads that show that this camera's auto mode chooses ridiculous settings, see (those are just a few examples):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33415136

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33551812&q=G11+Auto+Mode&qf=m

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33494203

As far as my 2nd bullet goes, there are people that buy this camera for its image quality. That's right - image qualtiy. That means that in auto mode or any other mode, this camera should produce high quality pictures. I agree with the OP that this camera produces VERY poor pictures in auto mode. Outdoors, the pictures are washed out. Indoors, the pictures are almost always blurry (super high ISOs, low shutter speeds and erratic flash).

But the point I'm making is this: people can buy this camera for image quality - not because they want to mess around with manual settings. It bugs the heck out of me when people say, "Stop using auto mode."

WHY? I can use auto mode if I want to. Personally, I don't. But my wife does. I utiltize this camera for all it can do. But my wife wants to "point n' shoot" and she gets crummy pictures MOST of the time. Yes, she can learn, but the point it, she shouldn't have to. Much cheaper cameras produce much better pictures in auto mode. My G9 produced MUCH better pictures in auto mode. My old A650 produced MUCH better pictures in auto mode. My friend's Panny ZS3 produces MUCH better pictures in auto mode.

This camera should be able to take good pictures in auto mode or any other mode. There are probably a lot of people out there who buy cameras because of other things than manual controls . . . like a 1/1.7" sensor, for example. They may want a point n' shoot that's highly touted for image quality (e.g., G11), with a larger-than-average sensor (e.g., G11), with good low-light performance (e.g., G11), with a good lens (e.g., G11), and decent aperture range (e.g., G11), lots of scene modes, (e.g., G11) . . . but they may not know much about photography and want to use auto mode, hoping that their $500 camera will make intelligent choices. These people will be very disappointed in this camera.

And this is precisely why I'm selling my G11 - because as our only camera, my wife gets consistently lousy pictures with it. My pictures - I love them. Tack sharp, well-exposed, etc. etc. I love this camera for its creative flexibility. But for auto? No.

Please, let people shoot in auto if they want. Don't call them stupid and don't think they don't know anything. There are many legitimate uses for auto mode, even for experienced photographers (shooting lots of pics at a party, etc. when you're the host, etc. etc.). You don't want to mess with setings; you just want to shoot.

Any decent point n' shoot (especially these days) should be able to deliver.

 

[pablolie]

I agree with auto, and also with what you implay when talking about focus.

The first thing I turn off in any new camera (and I have always done that) is the whole smart zone focus auto thing. It always amazes me that if you try to take the exact same picture twice all that fuzzy logic in the camera wil come up with different zones it evaluates (marked by green rectangles) two times out of three.

I go center-based, and comensate for lighting with quick exposure changes based on a bit of experience. Then you go (1) focus lock, (2) composition with the button still half-pressed (3) click.

I admit I hate leaving it all to the camera, and it whimsically coming up with the weirdest zones.

To get the most of any camera, do

• P-mode (or any more intelligent mode)
• set up "my colors" to your liking (sharpness, contrast, saturation)
• consider exposure comp
• always use center based AF, and do the focus lock 1-2-3

 

[Gamestheory]

Pablolie,

You're damn right! I've always used centre-based focussing on the G3 and I've been ignoring it on the G11. Thanks: that's the first solid clue as to what may be going wrong here.

I'll look at your other suggestions in that context.

Most grateful!

 

[pablolie]

This thread is another perfect example of 2 things:

• auto mode on this camera sucks
• people trying to shove their opinions down others' throats

For more examples of threads that show that this camera's auto mode chooses ridiculous settings, see (those are just a few examples)...

I actually agree. Which is why I said that if all you want to do is take pictures in auto, I think the A1100 will both do the job and save you a few hundred bucks.

I think the auto mode in the G9, G10 and G11 with all the auto functions turned on (9 zone eval whatever etc) has a fuzzy logic that makes it quite unpredictable. And that goes for most of the new high end P&S cameras.

I agree the vendors ought to make it clearer to buyers that perhaps its not a good fit for them if they only want to use auto mode.

 

[Gamestheory]

Phew! That told 'em!

Actually, if you go back a message, you'll see a very sensible suggestion from pablolie. He says that one problem may be that I've not been using centre focus, and that these clever multiple focussing zones get too easily distaracted. I'm sure that's right. I want to point at what I want to be in focus, depress the trigger, re-compose and then shoot. I'm going to try that: it may solve the focus problem. Whether other suggestions - see the thread - solve the colour question, I don't yet know.

 

[vincent filomena]

The AUTO mode and Quick shot mode on the G11 are excellent:

Both modes hold back BLINKIES: shoot the same scene AUTO, Quick mode And Aperature Mode; the first two will always cut back on blowing highlights (Blinkies);*

I've done Pro work, I have a DSLR: feel lucky that you have a camera that you can P&S quickly: Wanna waste your time setting all kinds of changes - have a ball !

AUTO on this Cam WORKS !!
Try it !!
Let the others just continue to whine !!

Love Vjim

 

[bill hansen]

.... reads just like your second "bullet point". Probably you didn't mean it that way, but it sounds like you're saying "shut up, jerks! - when most or all of us were just trying to offer advice. Maybe to you "offering advice" is the same thing as "shoving opinions down [someone's] through". I hope not.

As for another post below yours " I've done profesisonal work - I have a DSLR..." I don't know where that came from, but if it was supposed to be impressive, on this forum it isn't.

Bill Hansen

 

[englishman]

.... reads just like your second "bullet point". Probably you didn't mean it that way, but it sounds like you're saying "shut up, jerks! - when most or all of us were just trying to offer advice. Maybe to you "offering advice" is the same thing as "shoving opinions down [someone's] through". I hope not.

My sincerest apologies. I own a G11 & I can attest to the absolutely awful results I get in auto mode, especially indoors photographing children. I have a tendency to come across in the wrong way at times, so again, apologies.

What bothers me is this (and I'm trying to be as nice as possible): I bought the G11 for all its features, including auto mode. I've written posts about this in the past and I get a lot of responses saying, "don't use idiot mode," or "nobody buys this camera for the auto mode" or "switch to program mode" or whatever. Sometimes a person doesn't want to have to make adjustments and remember things. They just want to pick up the camera and snap!

So I guess I responded a bit harshly. Hopefully you understand my point of view a little better.

I do appreciate good advice and I think the advice has been helpful.

What I do to get around the auto mode problems is set the camera to "program" mode then cap the ISO at 200 and force the flash. That typically works for indoor children shots. Often I turn the flash down a click or two to minimize its harshness. But my wife . . . she doesn't do that. She puts the dials on "auto" and shoots. Unfortunately, that doesn't work with this camera.

I really miss my G9.

 

[sneakerpimp]

that is exactly what i do... and have been doing for years, even with my first EOS film cameras. technology continues to improve but for that it's just not there yet.

I agree with auto, and also with what you implay when talking about focus.

The first thing I turn off in any new camera (and I have always done that) is the whole smart zone focus auto thing. It always amazes me that if you try to take the exact same picture twice all that fuzzy logic in the camera wil come up with different zones it evaluates (marked by green rectangles) two times out of three.

I go center-based, and comensate for lighting with quick exposure changes based on a bit of experience. Then you go (1) focus lock, (2) composition with the button still half-pressed (3) click.

I admit I hate leaving it all to the camera, and it whimsically coming up with the weirdest zones.

To get the most of any camera, do

• P-mode (or any more intelligent mode)
• set up "my colors" to your liking (sharpness, contrast, saturation)
• consider exposure comp
• always use center based AF, and do the focus lock 1-2-3

 

[pablolie]

I really miss my G9.

I hung on to mine. It's not going anywhere. I have learned to take good pictures pretty much everywhere (even 140ft under water) with it. Most versatile camera I have ever owned. It'll take more than the incremental updates G10 and G11 offered to make me change it (and plong down the $$ for waterproof case, wide angle and tele adapters, which I got over time).

My SO also uses the auto mode on it all the time, and in my opinion they are also very hit or miss on the G9. She does better with the A1100, which she loves, and she's even started to use P mode on occasion.

 

[englishman]

Ah, I've been trying (patiently) to get her to understand the basics of ISO, shutter speed, etc., but she simply won't take the time to do so (wipes tear away).

My old G9, while somewhat "hit & miss" pretty consistently capped the ISO at 200, fired the flash and set the shutter to 1/60, producing pretty good shots on auto.

 

[Gamestheory]

Vjim, I've found that auto on this camera does not work well, for the reasons I've already posted. Shouting me down (in italics!), denying my experiences and trying to invalidate my remarks doesn't take the conversation any further, nor does arguing with my comments on one aspect of the camera by flagging up its other virtues. It's merely diversionary.

You seem to have had good experiences with the camera, and I don't challenge that. You obviously like it. Good. My own experience has been different.

 

[Gamestheory]

Don't any of you hate flash? It makes pictures "frontal", flattens the subject, changes the colour temperature of the actual scene, casts a very nasty shadow, and simply alters the dynamic of what prompted you to take the picture on the first place. You can't have flash and depth. And if you're shooting in a large space, flash isolates the subject in a sea of black. Horrid!

 

[Mark H]

In the first two shots, I actually prefer the g11. The people at the far end of the table are almost unrecognizable in the first it is so dark. Might be just a metering difference problem.

Of the first two shots, I prefer the G11 shot too.

The G3 shot has very dark shadows; notice that there is very little tone separation between the child's dark curly hair against the standing adult's black pullover (by the window).

Also interesting to note, the colour of the child's top to the extreme left of frame - it's a turning to magenta in the G3 image, whereas it's a more normal pink in the G11 image - this suggests either poorer WB, or perhaps simply underexposure, in the G3 image.

Most significantly though - I suspect that the G11's 'AUTO' mode has automatically applied a degree of 'i-contrast' which has lifted the shadows quite significantly, and helped to separate otherwise dark tones - however, it might be slightly overdone and has flattened the contrast perhaps a little too much for some's taste.

The higher ISO1250 of the G11 has enabled a faster shutter speed of 1/20 sec, so there is less motion blur from some of the subjects, and the cameras 'IS' eliminates camera shake - the G3 is probably limiting at ISO400 or below, allowing only 1/8 sec and there is some motion blur/camera shake.

However, ISO1250 deploys quite a bit of 'noise reduction' which does contribute to a softer image (along with the 'AUTO's i-contrast') - I've no doubt that the same G11 shot, taken at the same ISO400 as the G3 shot, would be better (less soft, and a bit more colour saturation).

Other differences of note - the G11 shot is at the widest 28mm 'equivalent' focal length - the G3 shot is at it's widest (but not as wide) 35mm 'equivalent' - so there is significantly wider coverage (and therefore every thing is 'smaller') in the G11 shot.

As for the outdoors samples - I really don't see major differences - perhaps one of the G11 shots (the group shot) is a tiny bit overexposed with resulting blown pink jacket, but it isn't that bad at all.

One oddity, which is difficult to understand - one of the G11 shots has selected ISO400 and 1/320 sec - why 1/320? That shutter speed, or the ISO, seems to be unnecessarily high - that's a bit odd.

 

[smarter]

@Gamestheory:

I have a lot of experience with the G3 and none with the G11 but I stepped up to a DSLR (Pentax K100DS) 2 Years ago after owning a G3 for 5 years.

The G3 is really a magical camera to me. So magical that I bought a used G3 again last august because I regretted selling my first one. I bought it again especially to take pictures of the birth my 2nd child. This way I could compare my 2 children at their precious first steps in their lives on pictures taken with the same camera. I'm so happy I did that, my 2nd G3 is also a great photogaphical tool.

Off course, nowadays I use my DSLR (now Pentax K-x and several lenses) a lot more than my old G3, but sometimes I take the good old Powershot and it delivers almost ervery time with great results.

The main Issues with the G3 are the very slow operation, huge shutter lag and poor low light focusing. Besides those drawbacks there are a lot of highlights: A stellar f/2.0 lens, swivel screen, great controls, very good JPEG processor and a lot more.

The reason I posted this as a non G11 owner is that I also see the magic of the old G3. The fact that almost half of my dpreview gallery (after 2 years of DSLR) still consists of G3 pictures tells a lot.

With my brand new Pentax DSLR I have a lot less keepers than I did with my G3. Especially my wife has a lot of issues taking pictures (even in auto mode) with my Pentax DSLR while the G3 delivers great pictures a lot easier in auto mode.

Maybe this is the same with the G11, the G11 probably only delivers the best results when you are really knowing how to operate this tool, just like a DSLR.

Some of my G3 pics (see my gallery for more):

 

[Derek Dean]

Howdy,

I had a G3 for 6 years before it up and died one day. Man, what a great camera! I had researched digital cameras for nearly 2 years before buying it as I wasn't sure I wanted to "go digital". However, once I had it in my hands I took to it like a duck to water and never looked back.

I could have had it fixed (about $130) but decided to go with the new G10 (new at that time). My main complaint with the G3 had been the tiny swivel screen (loved the swivel, hated the tiny), so the 3" screen of the G10 was quite appealing.

I had virtually the same reaction to the G10 that you are having to the G11. I kept going back to my old photos taken with the G3 and wondering why they looked SO MUCH BETTER than the photos taken with this brand new updated G10.

Well, to make a long story short, that was about 10 months ago, and in that time I've learned how to make my G10 take photos not only just as good as, but even better than the old G3.

As many here have pointed out, it appears that Canon has elected to make the standard jpg images a bit less processed in the newer models, giving the user the option to process them to their taste instead (either in camera or with post processing).

This may not suit your style of shooting, and so it's possible that you might want to investigate other cameras, however, as has also been suggested, I think that with just a bit of tweaking, either in camera or with post processing, you can get very pleasing results indeed.

With my G10 I found I needed to dial back the contrast to -2 (in camera) and then add just a bit of sharpening and saturation in Photoshop to get the results I wanted.

Even with my G3 I found when shooting landscapes that I needed to manually focus to infinity to get tack sharp results, and I've found the same thing with the G10.

What I'm getting at, is that I think with a bit of tweaking you can get superior results with your G11, but it will mean getting out of the auto mode, or at least doing some post processing.

If the prospect of playing with the various settings on the G11 isn't appealing to you, then it might be time to try another camera, there are certainly plenty out there, and I'm sure you can find one that will give you the results you are looking for. Good luck!

 

[DonA2]

Very nice photos Smarter--- I'm sure you would agree that the G11 would have done as well. The one thing that I believe hasn't been mentioned is the hot shoe that allows the use of the 270EX flash with it's tilt head. For indoor use it works great and suits this small cam.
--
Don V. Armitage

 

[smarter]

@Dona2:

Off course the the G11 will blow away the G3 when you know what you are doing.

What I mean is that I recognize the almost Insane high IQ of the G3's auto mode. Almost all of the pictures I posted are taken in auto or P mode. I don't know any camera that takes this pictures in a casual snap like that.

I have to do a lot of work nowadays to produce the same results the G3 did in a hartbeat. Fortunately I learned how to do this

Off course you also noticed that I posted no pictures of fast moving objects or people. This is where modern cameras with faster operation and a lot less shutter lag really shine.

So off course I wouldn't trade my current DSLR for a G3 as my only camera.

Unfortuately for some photographers there is no such thing anymore as the G3 was in it's days: A great all round camera which you could really grow into as your photographic skills increased.

Nowadays you have to choose between 2 types of cameras:

1.) All automatic, point and shoots for easy almost always sharp snapshots, that's all.

2.) Real photographic tools (with a sometimes pretty steep learning curve) like the G11.

Bottom line: Why Isn't the auto mode of the G11 capable of taking nice ,saturated and sharp pictures at almost every time like the G3 did? There are dozens of other modes for the enthusiast photographer to adjust everything to their own preferences.

I understand the problem of the topic starter. I'm glad that I have the skills now to go around the auto mode, but where is the learning curve nowadays? -> Start in auto mode,enjoy the pics and explore the camera from that point.

 

[sorinx]

Also consider that some of your G11 shots were at pretty high iso settings. The indoor one at the table was 1250 which I believe is better than the G3 comparable shot. Several others were at iso 400. I would suspect that most of the G3 shots were under 400. The G11 will shoot at 800 cleaner than the G3 at 400 or even less.

Yes and No.

• ISO400 on G3 is at least ISO640 on newer cameras
• G3 Has F2 while G11 has F2.8 lens

Still ISO400 on G3 is very noisy.

About colors:

I think it is not only about saturation. Older Canons had excellent colors. New cameras have more washed out colors and to me red is no more red. Is closer to pink. I am not sure if it is jpg engine or sensor.
Also DR may be better on older cameras