From Pentax: Full Frame Camera in Development!

[*isteve]

Yes - but you think that they should build an FF camera?

I believe Pentax can only manage to sell one real high-end K-mount
body. And I believe that in the current market a FF model will make
Pentax be seen as a contender. A high-end APS camera will drown in
the news about FF cameras coming this fall.
No Pentax high-end body will sell a lot. Neither will the Sony A900.

In other words they should ignore the bottom end and go for the top
end with the highest cost of development, highest technical and
financial risk, lowest overall revenue, lowest spin-off sales
potential.

They should not ignore the bottom end. Theres reportedly a entry
level K2000D coming. Then theres the K200D and K20D that represent
vaue for money. I think a real flagship + value for money camera
makes seense and also in tune with Pentax philosophy in the film days.
As for spin off sales; an FF camera will sell new FF lenses. Lenses
are profitable...

Only if people buy them.

Nikon have a huge pro base to sell expensive FF cameras too, plus the
revenue to make such a risk manageable as a %. Pentax dont.

Sure, but it could be that a high end APS camera that steal customers
from the K20D and vice versa, is more of a risk than an FF camera,
particularly if the rest of the camera surrounding the sensor is
equally expensive...

Sure an FF camera wont steal any sales because noone will buy it. Smart.
--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.

 

[johnnyhuman]

Yes - but you think that they should build an FF camera?

In other words they should ignore the bottom end and go for the top
end with the highest cost of development, highest technical and
financial risk, lowest overall revenue, lowest spin-off sales
potential.

Nikon have a huge pro base to sell expensive FF cameras too, plus the
revenue to make such a risk manageable as a %. Pentax dont.

My guess is they don't have much choice. FF is the next step in the evolution of consumer level cameras. It would be just as much risk not to develop one. Historically, companies that fail are often the ones that can't adapt to a changing market.

 

[Todd Ka]

History is repeating itself all over again. I read most of this same trash in the Nikon forum a couple of years back. And guess what? Nikon released several high end APS-C bodies then a FF camera, and pretty soon they will release another less expensive FF camera. They said the same stuff you guys are saying, all the FF pros are already using Canon, APS-C is good enough, FF will be to expensive, Canon sells way more, Nikon is going down, blah, blah, blah. Of course this negativity existed many years ago, when Pentax released the 645, you could find a few pesimists singing this all to familiar song: all the Pros already have a MF system. Mamiya, Rollei, and Hasselblad own the market, Pentax will never succeed. Well, I have some advice for some of you. GET OVER IT. Pentax will release a reasonably priced high end APS-C body then a reasonably priced FF camera. And guess what? They will do just fine. People will continue to buy Pentax gear and switch to Pentax gear for the same reason they always have. Very well designed, reasonably priced photographic equipment that is in general, a great value.

 

[Jim King]

This second duo have had similar duels in this forum, with no winner as neither would give an inch (or a cm.) They do provide us with great entertainment though!
--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA; GMT -4h (EDT)
Pentax user for over 45 years. Photo gear and collection listed in my profile.



* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

• Sir Winston Churchill

* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.

• Albert Einstein

 

[Yem]

It is fully possible to release a new camera AND lenses. Remember,
Canon released the EOS system with no lenses whatsoever already
released or sold. There are after all 24 000 000 K mount FF lenses
out there....

They may be out there, but they're not for sale. Try finding a FA24, 85 or 80-200 - let alone really long teles - at a sane price.

I know everyone would be thrilled to see those FA lenses rebuilt without the lead and recoated as DFA. Here's hoping.

But I suspect it's quite a ways off - like 3-5 years, not 2009.

 

[osv]

I,ve never suggested that Sony is lying about a prototype. I said

oh, so now you admit that the sony prototype ff camera is real.

which means that you also agree that sony will be releasing a ff camera.

by default then, your opinions against the marketing viability of a pentax ff camera are invalid.

face it voff, new ff cameras are being released, regardless of what you think of the idea.

--
dan

 

[Voff]

I,ve never suggested that Sony is lying about a prototype. I said

oh, so now you admit that the sony prototype ff camera is real.

I never stated otherwise...

which means that you also agree that sony will be releasing a ff camera.

I agree that they have implied as much. We will know only when they do....

by default then, your opinions against the marketing viability of a
pentax ff camera are invalid.

I've never had anything against the marketability of a Pentax FF. I'm all for it....

face it voff, new ff cameras are being released, regardless of what
you think of the idea.

I think it is great idea and is totally baffled by your posts.....

 

[osv]

which means that you also agree that sony will be releasing a ff camera.

I agree that they have implied as much. We will know only when they
do....

so now you don't believe that sony will release a ff camera.

tell us, why did they spend all that money on r&d, p.r., and marketing?

by default then, your opinions against the marketing viability of a
pentax ff camera are invalid.

I've never had anything against the marketability of a Pentax FF. I'm
all for it....

funny, that's not quite what you posted earlier:

I just have to disagree with you there. Pentax is a minute 4%
marketshare playere and there isn't enough advanced Pentax shooters
to sustain the K20D, K2D and n FF camera.

you keep trying to second-guess the marketability of a pentax ff camera, and you don't believe that sony has a ff camera.

it's gonna happen voff, get used to the idea.

--
dan

 

[Voff]

which means that you also agree that sony will be releasing a ff camera.

I agree that they have implied as much. We will know only when they
do....

so now you don't believe that sony will release a ff camera.

tell us, why did they spend all that money on r&d, p.r., and marketing?

I do believe Sony will release an FF camera. I've said Sony doesn't have a FF camera, meaning they don't sell one. Neither do Pentax.

I just have to disagree with you there. Pentax is a minute 4%
marketshare playere and there isn't enough advanced Pentax shooters
to sustain the K20D, K2D and n FF camera.

you keep trying to second-guess the marketability of a pentax ff
camera, and you don't believe that sony has a ff camera.

I'm not. I'm second guessing Pentax being able to sell both the K20D, K2D (14mp APS), AND an FF camera simultaneously.

And again, Sony doesn't have an FF camera. Neither have Pentax. They both have prototypes, but you can't buy them...

Only Nikon and Canon sell FF camera presently, but I'm pretty sure you can buy both Sony and Pentax FF in the future. But I don't knoew that for a fact because I'm not Nostradamus....

it's gonna happen voff, get used to the idea.

Thats what I am saying all along. (Still baffled).

 

[*isteve]

Were you responding to me?

I never said Nikon would not make a FF camera. I have no problem with anyone making an FF camera, or anyone spending their own cash on one, but circumstances specific to Pentax right NOW would indicate to me that its not the time yet for THEM and I am not sure it will be for a little while yet.

For Nikon to build and market a FF camera range is probably about 10% investment to revenue ratio - probably less as they already have
1. Tens of pro-quality FF lenses at all focal lengths
2. Tens of thousands of pros looking to get something competitive with Canon
3. A worldwide presence and professional support service

If it bombs, they lose 10% of revenue. Bad but not fatal. If it breaks even its cheap marketing, but because of Nikon's size and pro acceptance it is very likely to do better so its actually "paid for" R&D. However the bread and butter revenue cameras will remain the D60, D80 and D300. Competing in the D700 arena is tougher, margins are slim as hell. Rumour has it that for the last 2 years, with rebates, Canon made almost nothing on the 5D.

For Pentax the ratio is much larger and the risk correspondingly higher, which is why they pulled the 645D. Technically they can do anything they want, but in business terms not everything makes sense.

History is repeating itself all over again. I read most of this same
trash in the Nikon forum a couple of years back. And guess what?
Nikon released several high end APS-C bodies then a FF camera, and
pretty soon they will release another less expensive FF camera. They
said the same stuff you guys are saying, all the FF pros are already
using Canon, APS-C is good enough, FF will be to expensive, Canon
sells way more, Nikon is going down, blah, blah, blah. Of course
this negativity existed many years ago, when Pentax released the 645,
you could find a few pesimists singing this all to familiar song: all
the Pros already have a MF system. Mamiya, Rollei, and Hasselblad
own the market, Pentax will never succeed. Well, I have some advice
for some of you. GET OVER IT. Pentax will release a reasonably
priced high end APS-C body then a reasonably priced FF camera. And
guess what? They will do just fine. People will continue to buy
Pentax gear and switch to Pentax gear for the same reason they always
have. Very well designed, reasonably priced photographic equipment
that is in general, a great value.

--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.

 

[Voff]

For Pentax the ratio is much larger and the risk correspondingly
higher, which is why they pulled the 645D. Technically they can do
anything they want, but in business terms not everything makes sense.

But Pentax have been close to "sensless" before. In 2001 the Full Frame MD-S (K1 prototype) was very close to production. The 645D was dropped in the last minute. They could be close now too.

In addition, it is the factor that Samsung may have a sensor ready and need a platform for that....

 

[tigrebleu]

2010 would be about right. Sadly that will spell the end of dedicated
APS lenses like the 50-135.

Depends on how the sales figures evolve. Both Canon & Nikon are investing in new APS-C lenses, but both seem to put more effort in the development of FF lenses. But in the end, both C & N sell more APS-C DSLRs, enough to maintain the actual APS-C lenses offering. I'm pretty confident Pentax will end up doing the same: investing more in FF lenses and releasing more of these, while coming up with a few new APS-C lenses once every year or so.

My bet is that the 50-135mm will remain available until the demand for FF lenses telezooms exceeds the demand for similar APS-C lenses (let's say... 2013?) After that, the 50-135mm will be discontinued and replaced by another, cheaper model (with an F/4 aperture and no weather seals).

Just my thoughts.

I'm equally sure that 2 years will give them plenty of time to assess
the success or otherwise of the current mid-range FF cameras and
Sony's offering.

Good thing. This gives Pentax plenty of time to develop a product that's competitive both in price and in image quality.

Let's just hope they don't just go for the 25+ Mpix count... I'd rather have more dynamic range than a 10+ Mpix excess.

--
Once you've mastered the technique and the equipment, you can concentrate on
the more important aspects of photography: originality, atmosphere, emotion
and — ultimately — soul.
— Jeff

 

[Lance B]

The K10D took about 2 years from plan to availabillity. There was a
delay though. Without delay it looks like official presentation at
PMA 2010. Not bad.

We were all quite shocked when we learnt that there would be a Samsung 14.6Mp sensor implemented in the K20D when it was announced. We all really had little/no idea that Samsung would have this sensor ready for a K20D, especially in such a short colaboration time with Pentax. So, like the K20D's 14.6Mp sensor, which obviously had been in the pipeline for more than a year, I would say that there already exists a FF sensor being worked on right now and will be released well before 2010. The only real thing that may be holding up it is FF lens development, not so much the in camera sensor tweaking and fine tuning.

Would I be interested in a FF DSLR? I would, but not so much for the small advantage in image quality(which is always welcome), but more so for the big bright viewfinder that I loved with my 35mm film camera and also that it would be nice to be able to use my FA/FA* FA Limited lenses as they were intended, too.
Just my 2cents worth.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23551175

Inspiration Challenge - in depth feedback guaranteed

'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

--
Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 

[Rupert60]

Sounds like you maybe bought some Samsung stock? Wonderful investment, and very informative too! I agree with your every word, surprise abounds in the Samsung world, something Sony can tell you for sure, they have experienced it first hand for several years in electronics, and there is no let up in sight. When Samsung rolls, it is like a 200 car freight train full of bricks.
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

 

[osv]

I do believe Sony will release an FF camera. I've said Sony doesn't

stop contradicting yourself.

sony has a ff camera, period, and now you have finally admitted it.

I'm not. I'm second guessing Pentax being able to sell both the K20D,
K2D (14mp APS), AND an FF camera simultaneously.

"second guessing"? lol, every other post that you've made out here wrt ff has been negative.

you refused to admit that sony has a ff camera, and you continually argue about the marketing of the upcoming pentax ff camera.

these companies are doing ff, regardless of what your opinion is.

--
dan

 

[*isteve]

For Pentax the ratio is much larger and the risk correspondingly
higher, which is why they pulled the 645D. Technically they can do
anything they want, but in business terms not everything makes sense.

But Pentax have been close to "sensless" before. In 2001 the Full
Frame MD-S (K1 prototype) was very close to production. The 645D was
dropped in the last minute. They could be close now too.

Luckily they are now run by a management team that understands how to run a business hence the 645 was shelved. In case it escaped your attention they nearly went bust. If you WANT that to happen, then carry on campaigning.

In addition, it is the factor that Samsung may have a sensor ready
and need a platform for that....

Now Samsung also know how to run a business. They also take a long term view. They have no credibility in the top end camera market yet, but that will come. All this takes time and patience and betting the entire company on a hugely risky venture is NOT the way to do it.
--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.

 

[D TONG]

They may be out there, but they're not for sale. Try finding a FA24,
85 or 80-200 - let alone really long teles - at a sane price.

I know everyone would be thrilled to see those FA lenses rebuilt
without the lead and recoated as DFA. Here's hoping.

DA200mm is a repackaged FA*200mm
DA300mmF4 is also FF as well
There are a lot of hidden FF compatible lenses around . 20 millions

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 

[Voff]

"second guessing"? lol, every other post that you've made out here
wrt ff has been negative.

Are you crazy? Why don't read what I wrote.....

 

[Voff]

Now Samsung also know how to run a business. They also take a long
term view. They have no credibility in the top end camera market yet,
but that will come. All this takes time and patience and betting the
entire company on a hugely risky venture is NOT the way to do it.

Time is used up and patience is thin. How much time have they used? Six or seven years and only two models line-up.

This is what Popular Photography thinks: "Pentax

We have heard talk of a new pro level camera in the works. The next big offering from Pentax is likely to have improved noise levels and include a full-frame sensor from Samsung."

http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5367/pop-photo-editors-predict-whats-next-for-dslrs.html

 

[Jonathan Demarais]

As predicted by those of us here who are able to exercise reason and
logic, Pentax is officially developing a FULL FRAME camera because
they recognize that the market is headed in that direction. Read
more about it here: http://ricehigh.blogspot.com/

2. "We (Pentax) have already noted the new Full Frame trend. We have started to plan for the development of a Full Frame DSLR. However, this will not be come true within this year."

More significant is the fact they finally realize the K200D is too high-end. Good if you want a terrific 10 meg "man sized" camera, but no competitive with the likes of the Olympus E-420, Nikon D60 owing solely to size. This is why I still own the E-410 and sold the K10D.
--



'I cried because I had no E-3. Then I met a man with no E-510'

Olympus E-410, E-330, Nikon D100 & Pentax K20D.
40 lenses of various types