I think (not sure though) that's even better news than a FF plan/contigency plan/research/developemnt
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Charles Self
Senior Member
That is if one assumes "planning for development" ever moves into actual development. In truth, I'd far rather see a rationally price 645D to add to my APS-C Pentaxes than I would a so-called full frame.
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Charlie Self
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justin23
Senior Member
Have to agree. a FF dSLR would make very little money for Pentax. A medium format camera however would win the market share and provide even better IQ than FF. then canon and nikon would be playing catchup.
The only issue with the MF digital is to get it in at a cheap price IMO below $5k initially. now if that mean using a Samsung FF sensor to start in the first body then getting them to make a samsung MF sensor later I'd be happy.
Justin
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The only issue with the MF digital is to get it in at a cheap price IMO below $5k initially. now if that mean using a Samsung FF sensor to start in the first body then getting them to make a samsung MF sensor later I'd be happy.
--That is if one assumes "planning for development" ever moves into
actual development. In truth, I'd far rather see a rationally price
645D to add to my APS-C Pentaxes than I would a so-called full frame.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
Justin
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Hoya/Pentax can either aim for the D3 market or they can stick to their usual approach. Feature rich cameras at a relatively low price sacrificing pro specs regarding FPS and AF.
The FA Limiteds are still in production. They have FF 50mm / 100mm macro lenses.
I can't imagine Pentax releasing lenses above $5000. They will probably cover the 24-300mm range with primes and a few zooms perhaps with a fish-eye zoom.
I would call it entry FF DSLRs but with splendid image quality and for Samsung the goal is to compete with Sony and not Canon / Nikon. Sony already have FF technology but they are no match for the Canon / Nikon pro segment and I don't even think Sony wants to compete. Sony like Samsung are mass market specialists.
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Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim
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*isteve
Veteran Member
Me neither, but Pentax is a tiny outfit capable of producing around 4 new lens designs a year. They need to develop a complete range of FF lenses, so I doubt there will be many new APS only lenses coming out in the meantime.
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Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.
richardday
Veteran Member
I'm sure that even if they do adopt FF, they will not drop APS-C, Canon have had FF for years including a cheap FF, but it hasn't stopped them from developing more APS gear.
Pentax are traditionally the champions of affordable cameras and APS will continue to be just that for a long while.
FF & also I believe 645 will be Pentax's higher end just as the 645 and 67 were their offerings in the film days.
--
Richard Day - 'Carpe Diem!'
Gloucester UK
sfa1966
Senior Member
Ahhh ... so you meant stopping new APS designs (not the more draconian stoping all current APS lens production) ... sorry, my bad ... now I am with you ....
But, even if they release a FF body, I'm sure that they could manage 1 or 2 new APS designs out of your postulated 4 per year though? And, how many more lenses are needed before the APS line-up is 'complete'? In addition to the current range, there's a DA15, DA*60-250 coming, possibly also a DA*11-16 next year. So ... apart from a long (300+) tele-zoom, what other APS lenses do we really need?
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Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
True. I can't see any correlation between image quality (FF) and speed. Often the oposite. Pentax rather make a high-speed APS camera if at all.
I believe people who are into 30mp cameras are more concerned about image quality than machine gunning images at 8fps....
So in reality he was totally uncommitical and didn't say anything about their plans one way or another, just that they are aware of the FF trend. And basically continue what they are already doing. This is an answer from someone not wanting to tell anything!
T
Todd Ka
Guest
A MF digital SLR for under 6K would be great. I too would rather have that then a FF 35mm SLR. However it is nice to know that a FF 35mm is in the works.
--That is if one assumes "planning for development" ever moves into
actual development. In truth, I'd far rather see a rationally price
645D to add to my APS-C Pentaxes than I would a so-called full frame.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
Justin
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Biz as usual ... like in the classic:
Polititian 1: Collegue, what did you say in your last speech?
Polititian 2: Nothing, as allways.
Polititian 1: Sure I know that, BUT how did say that?
Pentax will not tell us anything before they want us or their competitors to know something.
Concerning R&D: don't forget that recently Pentax was still working on a digital 645 ... just take it's processing engine (at least capable of handling 16 MPx, perhaps even something like 24 MPx) and a newer, miniaturized sensor (from 645-format to 24X36 format), put a housing / a body around it (hey: Pentax has been doing these things for years, their engineers know this biz) ... and here you go: full format dSLR ready.
SpaceDoc
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If ever one wants to consider those salesperson's words for granted ... just read 'em that way:
1. the words of that guy - as read like described above.
2. Pentax traditions: Pentax has allways been very 'professional' when it came to be able to deliver a new camera modell right before christmas to take profit of the holiday season. (the classical sad story)
But:
I'd be too happy if Pentax proves just otherwise at the end:
fullformat dSLR at Photokina and delivered in large enough numbers to take profit of the christmas sales season and in low enough numbers to keep the prizes high.
And if ever they'd manage to come up with another DFA 2.0(2.8) 135mm Limited ... wow!
SpaceDoc
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- Pentax full format dSLR in 2008 = NO [that's at Photokina, end of september, in Cologne, Germany]
- Pentax full format dSLR in 2009 = YES [that's at PMA in early spring]
1. the words of that guy - as read like described above.
2. Pentax traditions: Pentax has allways been very 'professional' when it came to be able to deliver a new camera modell right before christmas to take profit of the holiday season. (the classical sad story)
But:
I'd be too happy if Pentax proves just otherwise at the end:
fullformat dSLR at Photokina and delivered in large enough numbers to take profit of the christmas sales season and in low enough numbers to keep the prizes high.
And if ever they'd manage to come up with another DFA 2.0(2.8) 135mm Limited ... wow!
SpaceDoc
.
MartySasaki
Member
A full frame wouldn't technically be that hard. Remember that Pentax used to produce film cameras of high quality, some very innovative. They have already done the engineering for autofocus systems and FF pentaprisms and viewfinders. Tweaking the new technology to fit the previous engineering is not easy, but Pentax should have experience in this arena.
This will have to be an enthusiasts or a professional's camera. The general public is more interested in features and is happy with the APS (or even smaller, it's not that important) sensor. Full frame lenses are going to be more expensive, they are also larger and heaview.I agree with others that this is mostly a marketing and sales thing.
I would be happy with a FF autofocus K1000. Personally, I don't need, or really want to pay for all the different modes and features. I don't need live view, or even an LCD screen, well maybe for review. I'm happy with shooting raw or maybe a high quality jpeg. But I'm in a minority.
The full frame that comes to market will need to appeal to a decently large group of folks and have to overcome the prejudice created for Nikon and Canon. Face it, when you pull out your digital SLR don't most people ask you if it is a Canon or Nikon (assuming that they don't see "Pentax" on it)? Lots are convinced that Nikon and Canon are the only players, they certainly have the network of sales and rental support throughout the world.
Marty
This will have to be an enthusiasts or a professional's camera. The general public is more interested in features and is happy with the APS (or even smaller, it's not that important) sensor. Full frame lenses are going to be more expensive, they are also larger and heaview.I agree with others that this is mostly a marketing and sales thing.
I would be happy with a FF autofocus K1000. Personally, I don't need, or really want to pay for all the different modes and features. I don't need live view, or even an LCD screen, well maybe for review. I'm happy with shooting raw or maybe a high quality jpeg. But I'm in a minority.
The full frame that comes to market will need to appeal to a decently large group of folks and have to overcome the prejudice created for Nikon and Canon. Face it, when you pull out your digital SLR don't most people ask you if it is a Canon or Nikon (assuming that they don't see "Pentax" on it)? Lots are convinced that Nikon and Canon are the only players, they certainly have the network of sales and rental support throughout the world.
Marty
Joe Barnhart
Senior Member
I understand your admiration of Samsung. I have visited Samsung in Korea myself, in my professional life. I have no doubts that they are capable of creating a FF sensor. But I believe the Pentax claim that they aren't planning an intro this year. Maybe they will in the future, or maybe they never will. Samsung may or may not bring out a camera themselves.
All this overheated speculation is just so pointless. Let the future unfold and bring what it brings. "Those who know don't tell, those who tell don't know."
All this overheated speculation is just so pointless. Let the future unfold and bring what it brings. "Those who know don't tell, those who tell don't know."
justin23
Senior Member
FF currently makes up for about 2% of dSLR sales......
This obviously may increase, but the sub $1000 cameras still outsell by a large amount any FF camera available.
I'd be very surprised if Pentax stopped making DA lenses at all. They would still sell well.
Justin
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This obviously may increase, but the sub $1000 cameras still outsell by a large amount any FF camera available.
I'd be very surprised if Pentax stopped making DA lenses at all. They would still sell well.
--Why so?
If (say) 70%+ of the sales thereafter are still of APS cameras, the
dedicated lenses would surely still be viable ...
Lots of people are simply not interested in FF (I am one of them).
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Cheers,
sfa
A very limited photographer ...
Justin
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justin23
Senior Member
The issue is recovering R&D costs. The K20D is a prime example of having to charge an extra $300 to cover the extra R&D costs. I expect that was also reduced as the sensor will be used in future cameras and help pay off the R&D investment.
Any Pentax FF dSLR is still likely to be as expensive as a Nikon or Canon offering. Maybe a few hundred less.
Ideally though at $2500-$3000 for a FF and then if they can do it a MF camera for $5000 and i think alot of pros would be happy and more attention come to Pentax.
I actually think though that the price differential from APS-C to FF will keep FF sales quite low. Most people can not justify buying a FF camera when the IQ in the APS-C is almost as good and to most people hard to tell apart.
And zoom is very important to the consumer market. Lets not forget the crop factor of APS-C.
Justin
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Any Pentax FF dSLR is still likely to be as expensive as a Nikon or Canon offering. Maybe a few hundred less.
Ideally though at $2500-$3000 for a FF and then if they can do it a MF camera for $5000 and i think alot of pros would be happy and more attention come to Pentax.
I actually think though that the price differential from APS-C to FF will keep FF sales quite low. Most people can not justify buying a FF camera when the IQ in the APS-C is almost as good and to most people hard to tell apart.
And zoom is very important to the consumer market. Lets not forget the crop factor of APS-C.
--Hoya/Pentax can either aim for the D3 market or they can stick to
their usual approach. Feature rich cameras at a relatively low price
sacrificing pro specs regarding FPS and AF.
The FA Limiteds are still in production. They have FF 50mm / 100mm
macro lenses.
I can't imagine Pentax releasing lenses above $5000. They will
probably cover the 24-300mm range with primes and a few zooms perhaps
with a fish-eye zoom.
I would call it entry FF DSLRs but with splendid image quality and
for Samsung the goal is to compete with Sony and not Canon / Nikon.
Sony already have FF technology but they are no match for the Canon /
Nikon pro segment and I don't even think Sony wants to compete. Sony
like Samsung are mass market specialists.
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Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim
Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23551175
Inspiration Challenge - in depth feedback guaranteed
'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'
Justin
--------------------------------------------------------
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Photobucket
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PhotoTraveler
Forum Pro
Actualy, this is very much like companies, companies plan for such things all the time, different plans depending on what might happen globably such as economic changes, a war, material shortages, etc. They plan for what could happen if consumer trends suddenly shift. They plan for if their competitiors suddenly drop a product on the market that changes things dramaticaly. They plan for if some new tech/developement suddenly happens, or happens sooner or later than previously thought. So on and so forth.
Focusing on camera companies, you can be sure they have all had scenario plans laid out for years that get activated based on things above, such as what the competition did, where the market has shifted and so forth.
Full Frame pentax isn't new. They had a concept one ages ago, I think it was even before the first *ist bodies. They certainly have always had a FF plan. And that plan is certainly always evolving. Doesn't mean they are actively making a FF body.
Now it's very likely Pentax is getting more serious on one though. In a few months, they will be the only 35mm based system to not have a FF body. Sony will be there very soon, and the Leica R10 will have some information given at Photokina and you can be sure it's FF. Four companies with FF, and one without, is not a good spot to be in if you are the one without.
Now the problem is they have dug themselves in a hole with all their APS lenses. Stuff like an APS only 4/300 was just silly. Not sure if anyone has tried it on film yet though. Maybe Pentax has a plan where they suddenly left folks know that some DA lenses are perfectly fine for Digital FF too.
Focusing on camera companies, you can be sure they have all had scenario plans laid out for years that get activated based on things above, such as what the competition did, where the market has shifted and so forth.
Full Frame pentax isn't new. They had a concept one ages ago, I think it was even before the first *ist bodies. They certainly have always had a FF plan. And that plan is certainly always evolving. Doesn't mean they are actively making a FF body.
Now it's very likely Pentax is getting more serious on one though. In a few months, they will be the only 35mm based system to not have a FF body. Sony will be there very soon, and the Leica R10 will have some information given at Photokina and you can be sure it's FF. Four companies with FF, and one without, is not a good spot to be in if you are the one without.
Now the problem is they have dug themselves in a hole with all their APS lenses. Stuff like an APS only 4/300 was just silly. Not sure if anyone has tried it on film yet though. Maybe Pentax has a plan where they suddenly left folks know that some DA lenses are perfectly fine for Digital FF too.
There are people waiting for FF camera, some may wait for better AF and some for cheaper entry level camera. It’s much work to do - Pentax may become exotic camera maker again otherwise. Again - because it already was strange last years before digital.
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S.Z.
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S.Z.
Anastigmat
Forum Pro
The computer industry has a term of this: vaporware. Sony was first to release its Full frame flagship vaporware, and now it is Pentax's turn.
Unless Pentax planned the full frame last year, there is no way it can have the camera ready to go. Expect a Pentax full frame to be ready by 2009 at the earliest.
Sometimes vaporware materialize as real products, sometimes they don't because there is no market for it.
Roland Mabo
Forum Pro
Are you trolling?
And they were officially developing a medium format because they recognized that the market was headed in that direction.
Come on now, the reality is that the market is NOT headed in the direction towards 24x36. APS-C, 24x36 and medium format can and will co-exist for many, many years. A 24x36 is not a competition to APS-C. 24x36 will not kill APS-C.
24x36 will exist in a higher and much more expensive market segment than APS-C.
Just as it is doing today.
Few are able to afford 24x36, and few will be able to afford it.
And do note that planning for a 24x36 development is not the same has having one in development. From the wording, the 24x36 from Pentax may come in 2010. It will not come this year and it will most likely not be ready next year, although it may be showned in a prototype for fall 2009 and be out in the market of 2010.
Then Pentax can release a few 24x36 lenses at the end of 2009, they should have time for this.
Do note that Pentax are still expanding their APS-C business.
More lenses and more bodies. The new body that "RichHigh" is talking about is the K1000D, which we have been knowing now for some time. No surprise there. A new low end APS-C body. Rice-High is making a big deal of Pentax making three cameras instead of two. So what? Pentax were making the *ist DL, DS and D - and the K110D, K100D and K10D. Now they are going K1000D, K200D and K20D. So?
Big deal haha. "Suddenly" Pentax has listened to RiceHigh and realised that they needed three bodies haha.
Truth is that that the K1000D has been in development for quite some time but Pentax couldn't possible be releasing three DSLR's at a a time, not enough resources so it had to wait.
And we are still waiting for the K1D, which also is a camera in development.
However, the new K1D flagship is NOT the 24x36. It is a new APS-C pro-level.
So, basically, Pentax are not planning for a 24x36 to take over APS-C.
The new 24x36 is a replacement for the not released 645D. Digital 24x36 has taken over some of the medium format market, and this is what Pentax has recognized. A medium format digital is too expensive and would be out of reach for many Pentax medium format customers. So because of this they develop a 24x36 instead of a medium format digital. Not instead of APS-C.
So digital APS-C replaces 24x36 film, and digital 24x36 replaces medium format film.
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Take care
R
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