Fixed Lens Cameras

I can get a 10MP 24-120mm/2.8-4.8 equivalent APS-C class DSC-R1 for about €120 at the moment.
You could not pay me to use that old thing.
Been my main camera for about 6 years or so until a year ago.
Its like my 20 year old Canon 350D. Makes horrible photos compared to today's options, even with L glass.
Not if you process from raw. The lens is good; the body is a mixed bag. You wouldn't go birding with it due to range and autofocus performance. It doesn't do low-light sensibly, but it does do colors. It is really nice for people photography since it is quite silent, and looking down into the camera instead of staring through it is received much better.

e23eadcf31ef44f8be41ea458c7e6843.jpg


I shot this one with my 350D and a 70-200 2.8 L lens around 2007. It looks good on the first impression, but compared to what my A7R V and the 70-200 2.8 GM II can produce, its leagues of a difference.

0d6f80cd86744de6b905041d971c0a17.jpg.png
 
I cut way back on camera usage & mostly used my iPhone for a few years.

I now regret that; I find a "real" camera capture gives me deeper satisfaction.

That inevitably means having to lug said camera out with me. My best EDC solution thus far has been an old APS-C body + lens.

Out of all the trending fixed-lens solutions, the Ricoh GR III series actually has the potential to fit my budget – and my shirt pocket!

I spent most of the '00s with a digital P&S. I'd love to get that old experience back, but also keep the IQ I've become accustomed to. :-)

--

 
I can get a 10MP 24-120mm/2.8-4.8 equivalent APS-C class DSC-R1 for about €120 at the moment.
You could not pay me to use that old thing.
Been my main camera for about 6 years or so until a year ago.
Its like my 20 year old Canon 350D. Makes horrible photos compared to today's options, even with L glass.
Not if you process from raw. The lens is good; the body is a mixed bag. You wouldn't go birding with it due to range and autofocus performance. It doesn't do low-light sensibly, but it does do colors. It is really nice for people photography since it is quite silent, and looking down into the camera instead of staring through it is received much better.

e23eadcf31ef44f8be41ea458c7e6843.jpg
I shot this one with my 350D and a 70-200 2.8 L lens around 2007. It looks good on the first impression, but compared to what my A7R V and the 70-200 2.8 GM II can produce, its leagues of a difference.

0d6f80cd86744de6b905041d971c0a17.jpg.png
Well, the colors are not graduated as subtly, apparent in the bokeh and the lighter parts of the blossoms. Another effect of the more discriminative color matrix of the DSC-R1 is that the it deals quite more gracefully with multi-whitebalance situations (like windows to the outside in an indoors scene with artificial lighting) than more modern Bayer filters that sacrifice color discrimination for transmittivity (which is good in low-light situations but delivering results under multiple different light sources that are quite irritating).

--
Dak
 
Why are you using FF 61MP when there is no difference?

I was completely content with my A6400, but was curious about what I could do with 61mp A7R4 and I wanted IBIS to try some of the many lenses which had no OSS. Once I owned it I enjoyed the much better EVF in addition to the IBIS. When the A7R5 came out I bought it to try focus stacking. But most of all, I love the jump from 5 to 8 stops of IBIS. I especially appreciate the steady image while manual focusing.



I still shoot my A6400 often, enjoying the light wt and the pop up flash, which is all I need to fill shadows. I walk my neighborhood with it and the Zeiss 16-70.

Glad you too are enjoying the Sony 28RM flash. It's the smartest flash I own. And it has enough power for my use of filling shadows. I liked the ease of using the 28RM in- camera menu and bought the 46RM just because I thought some day I might want the greater power.

You mention illuminating an entire room with flash. That's tricky to do well and avoid the crappy shadows and diminishing brightness with distance squared. Perhaps you bounce.
 
About Fixed Lens Cameras
Some think the fixed lens camera is lighter. But full frame camera and lens combinations can be even lighter than the fixed lens cameras they emulate.

Are we still talking about compact cameras or are we talking about smartphone cameras?
A Sony A7R4 and Samyang 35mm f1.8 lens is lighter than a Q3. Ditto for several other similar combinations.
The latest development in this craziness is the medium format fixed lens camera with an f4 lens and no IBIS. In the past decade, it’s unlikely that anyone had a real need for digital medium format. Sure, they shoot it, but did even one of their images get presented in a manner where medium format was perceivably better than full frame?
The following is quoted below with the kind permission of Petapixel.com

This comparison, by Norwegian professional photographer and photography teacher/author Magnar W. Fjørtoft, is backed up with a real test. He shot a scene of a shipyard containing great detail at f/8 on his old 12mp APS-C camera and his brand new 24mp full frame camera.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the difference between compact cameras and interchangeable lens cameras. Nothing.
This is quoted as evidence that the increased resolution of medium format is not perceived, even when pixel peeping very large prints. A lot of people will pop for medium format expecting to see better image quality. It might be there, but Magnar's experiment is evidence that people won't see it.
 
Why are you using FF 61MP when there is no difference?

I was completely content with my A6400, but was curious about what I could do with 61mp A7R4 and I wanted IBIS to try some of the many lenses which had no OSS. Once I owned it I enjoyed the much better EVF in addition to the IBIS. When the A7R5 came out I bought it to try focus stacking. But most of all, I love the jump from 5 to 8 stops of IBIS. I especially appreciate the steady image while manual focusing.
I appreciate your honest answer, and the honest answer always leads us back to why we shoot, for ease of enjoyment of photography. I have wanted a premium "flat" camera, and I will give up a faster lens if the glass is a pancake lens. F4 is the limit of compromise that I will take, but in total there isn't a better "flat" camera on the market. And I have played with most of them, Q1 and 2, Fuji 100, x10, Sony R1 series, cybershots etc ... This gfx100RF, is giving me nearly, everything I want except f2.8 or faster and in body flash.
I still shoot my A6400 often, enjoying the light wt and the pop up flash, which is all I need to fill shadows. I walk my neighborhood with it and the Zeiss 16-70.
I am keeping my a6700 and a few lenses because for my specific shooting style it gives me the options I want.
Glad you too are enjoying the Sony 28RM flash. It's the smartest flash I own. And it has enough power for my use of filling shadows. I liked the ease of using the 28RM in- camera menu and bought the 46RM just because I thought some day I might want the greater power.
I agree, the Sony flashes just work. I am using some Godox flash and they can be made to do what I need, but it is more work.
You mention illuminating an entire room with flash. That's tricky to do well and avoid the crappy shadows and diminishing brightness with distance squared. Perhaps you bounce.
Yes I love to bounce or use indirect flash. The f28rm can illuminate an average room in the homes that I photograph in, but not in HSS. Took me a couple of missed shots to realize the 28rm was automatically going into HSS and giving me darker shots.
 
M Gartner wrote:.

GFX100RF is 100% a lifestyle product. Just look at the photo gallery on their website!

https://www.fujifilm-x.com/global/products/cameras/gfx100rf/
I agree with this 100% it is absolutely a lifestyle product.
NONE of those photos actually show photos made by the camera, this is not about the camera at all. They all show "owners" in weird fashionable clothes. This is a look-at-me product. Not a proper camera. And it is marketed and sold as such.
I hated the marketing campaign from Fuji as there were very few photos from my style of shooting. But to say it isn't a proper camera is just silly. I own a gfx100rf and it is absolutely a proper camera with a lot of options to compose and produce just about anything you want between a traditional 28- 70 zoom. And when you do most of your photography between that range you don't need another lens.
Just look at that dude. Range finder from the hip, eh?
Yeah it has a flip out screen so yes you can take plenty of shots from the hip.

Again as an owner of the f4, no ibis, large format none of this are limitations to getting the shot I want in 90% of my situations. Also fixed lens cameras come with a leaf shutter allowing flash scenarios that aren't possible in even A1mk2. The lens is just as sharp in the center as my 24GM on the A7CR ( after a quick comparison).

For me and my lifestyle this fixed lens camera fits how I like to shoot, and feels luxurious while doing it.
"Not a proper camera", compared to what the current market has to offer. Too many compromises in my book, just to look cute, hip or luxurious.
Still doesn't make sense. Everycamera is a compromise, and the files are out of the gfx100rf are as good or better as anything on the market
I was referring to that dude in the photo, he isn't using the screen or eye piece. The marketing is indeed bonkers, and I wonder how many customers feel in touch with those marketing shots and go out, and buy one.
No argument.
I mean, everybody can buy anything, for any reason. No need to justify it. As I said, I buy plenty of stuff that makes absolutely no sense. Its just about how the product makes ME feel.

But my opinion stands. When it comes to proper photography, a really good, dedicated full frame or medium format body, paired with a good choice of quality lenses, is the ticket. When the system only offer 5 lenses, that alone would steer me away. A fixed lens camera? I rather use my Samsung S25 Ultra at that level of a compromise. Its like buying a Miata and claiming it to be a sports or race car. It is not. Not even modified.
Proper photography is where my issue with your comment lies. A pinhole camera is proper photography. If you had the gfx100rf in hand, you as a proper photographer, would use it over your s25 ultra, except for selfies.
Proper photography makes use of the best tools available, in order to eliminate variables and compromises.
No. Proper photography is producing a result that is enjoyed, equipment has little to do with proper photography.
You will not see a "proper" photographer, aka a working Pro, use the gfx100rf, let alone a fixed lens camera.
No. A working pro is not the only definition of a proper photographer, I take better received photos than some pros, and I am an amateur.
I make my money with proper photography, using proper gear. All my peers use proper gear. None of them uses a gfx100rf. Not for real estate photography, not for headshot photography, not for events or weddings.
You use proper gear to photograph the subjects you are paid to photograph. Chances are you and your contemporaries, can't get a gfx100rf, and even if you could it may not be proper for your paid gigs. But I know of of at least one photographer who was paid to shoot a wedding and he used the gfx100 RF for some wonderful shots and was paid for those shots.
Here's what my colleagues use: Sony A7R, A7S, A1, A9 with GM lenses only. Canon R5 and R1, with L glass only. Hasselblad 907X / CFV 100C / X2D 100C with matching Hasselblad lenses. I don't recall anybody in my groups even using Nikon at this point.
So is Nikon no longer proper photography equipment? What about older large format cameras? Good to know your council of peers were named the definers of proper photography.
Everybody can take photos, but that doesn't make everybody a proper photographer.
Sure it does. If they produce one picture they enjoy they are a proper photographer. And yes in this day and age a lot of smart phone photos generate money for the person who took the picture .
 
I went out with the Sony flash 28RM set for HSS and my 24-50mm zoom. It covers 35mm FOV. It even seemed to cover 24mm FOV, but you're supposed to pull out a Fresnel spreader lens for 24mm. Subject bushes were about 3 feet away. As you probably know, this flash has fixed angle of illumination (no zoom). So I'm wasting a lot of juice using it with a 75mm through 90mm portrait lens on flowers. But it works.
 
No. Proper photography is producing a result that is enjoyed, equipment has little to do with proper photography.

No. A working pro is not the only definition of a proper photographer, I take better received photos than some pros, and I am an amateur.

You use proper gear to photograph the subjects you are paid to photograph. Chances are you and your contemporaries, can't get a gfx100rf, and even if you could it may not be proper for your paid gigs. But I know of of at least one photographer who was paid to shoot a wedding and he used the gfx100 RF for some wonderful shots and was paid for those shots.

So is Nikon no longer proper photography equipment? What about older large format cameras? Good to know your council of peers were named the definers of proper photography.

Sure it does. If they produce one picture they enjoy they are a proper photographer. And yes in this day and age a lot of smart phone photos generate money for the person who took the picture .
Those are statements from an amateur that wants to be associated with / or set equal to pros. That's not how it works. Try to get $2,000 gigs with your portfolio, name, reputation, gear.

"If they produce one picture they enjoy"? Who is they? You will always find a random person that will like a random photo, no matter how bad it is.

Proper photography sells and makes a proper income. Not the other way around.

What do you mean with we can't get a gfx100rf? I'm a B&H partner. I can get everything. My currently used photo gear for work sits at around 25k. When I factor everything in that sits on my shelves, it gets close to 6 figures.
 
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The following is quoted below with the kind permission of Petapixel.com

This comparison, by Norwegian professional photographer and photography teacher/author Magnar W. Fjørtoft, is backed up with a real test. He shot a scene of a shipyard containing great detail at f/8 on his old 12mp APS-C camera and his brand new 24mp full frame camera.

He printed each photo 43″ wide and asked a group of 30 photo professionals and enthusiasts to write down which camera shot each print. Was it the 12mp APS-C or the 24mp full frame? They were allowed to examine the prints as closely as they wished.

Only 50% of their calls were correct, which is the same a flipping a coin. Magnar said that he himself could not detect a difference between the prints and had to label them on the back “A” and “B” to keep track of which was which.

After printing both images, Magnar wrote, “We simply could not believe our eyes! Then we laughed and laughed. We could not spot any differences!”
That is remarkable, I would have guessed Medium Format would be easily recognizable. 'Differences' in audio equipment often disappears in 'unfair' Blind Comparisons, the expectation bias is a powerful force,

check this out:


I never print large, and I have stated many times that I cannot tell the difference between my 1" rx100's images and my FF RX1r when viewed on my 27" monitor.

Except for FF sensor's shallow focus capability, that can be readily seen even as small as Large Icon Size
 
No. Proper photography is producing a result that is enjoyed, equipment has little to do with proper photography.

No. A working pro is not the only definition of a proper photographer, I take better received photos than some pros, and I am an amateur.

You use proper gear to photograph the subjects you are paid to photograph. Chances are you and your contemporaries, can't get a gfx100rf, and even if you could it may not be proper for your paid gigs. But I know of of at least one photographer who was paid to shoot a wedding and he used the gfx100 RF for some wonderful shots and was paid for those shots.

So is Nikon no longer proper photography equipment? What about older large format cameras? Good to know your council of peers were named the definers of proper photography.

Sure it does. If they produce one picture they enjoy they are a proper photographer. And yes in this day and age a lot of smart phone photos generate money for the person who took the picture .
Those are statements from an amateur that wants to be associated with / or set equal to pros. That's not how it works. Try to get $2,000 gigs with your portfolio, name, reputation, gear.
You say that like being an amateur is a pejorative, it isn't. I don't care about being associated with pro photographers. I don't want a pro setup, although some of my gear is the best in the lineup. This is a hobby, I don't need my hobby to generate my income. I don't discuss money on this forum, but I assure a $2k isn't worth my time. But I do get great joy from people enjoying the prints/books/etc... that I give them. And yes they often times offer to pay...
"If they produce one picture they enjoy"? Who is they?
Anyone who takes a picture.
You will always find a random person that will like a random photo, no matter how bad it is.
Exactly.
Proper photography sells and makes a proper income. Not the other way around.
You believe what you want, there are plenty of proper photographs that aren't purchased.
What do you mean with we can't get a gfx100rf?
They aren't available from vendors.
My currently used photo gear for work sits at around 25k. When I factor everything in that sits on my shelves, it gets close to 6 figures.
I didn't say you couldn't afford it. I said you probably can't get one. If you can great, but let us know how you get on with it.
 
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The following is quoted below with the kind permission of Petapixel.com

This comparison, by Norwegian professional photographer and photography teacher/author Magnar W. Fjørtoft, is backed up with a real test. He shot a scene of a shipyard containing great detail at f/8 on his old 12mp APS-C camera and his brand new 24mp full frame camera.

He printed each photo 43″ wide and asked a group of 30 photo professionals and enthusiasts to write down which camera shot each print. Was it the 12mp APS-C or the 24mp full frame? They were allowed to examine the prints as closely as they wished.

Only 50% of their calls were correct, which is the same a flipping a coin. Magnar said that he himself could not detect a difference between the prints and had to label them on the back “A” and “B” to keep track of which was which.

After printing both images, Magnar wrote, “We simply could not believe our eyes! Then we laughed and laughed. We could not spot any differences!”
That is remarkable, I would have guessed Medium Format would be easily recognizable. 'Differences' in audio equipment often disappears in 'unfair' Blind Comparisons, the expectation bias is a powerful force,

check this out:


I never print large, and I have stated many times that I cannot tell the difference between my 1" rx100's images and my FF RX1r when viewed on my 27" monitor.

Except for FF sensor's shallow focus capability, that can be readily seen even as small as Large Icon Size
Bear in mind that when you use SONY sensors, the pixel pitch of the:
  • 26Mpx APS-C,
  • 60Mpx FF and
  • 100Mpx MF
... is identical. Since a lot of people "zoom in" to 100% they would see the same detail in all 3 sensors.

And if the example was also about scaling, e.g. getting 12Mpx to resolve 43", that is then roughly 100px/inch. The 24Mpx sensor gives you 139px/inch. A matter of diminishing returns as you cannot carry on down-scaling the image. The A7RV resolves 221px/inch ... you see where this is going?? You pick some random size (43" - and why not??) and then draw some conclusions regarding sensor size. But you cannot keep on doing this as your eyes have only so much resolving power. And then of course, a BIG one: what subject?

Then there's the issue of printing ... another mini-equalizer on the way ...

Having sad all this: what's this got to do with fixed lens cameras?

So in short there's more to this than a simplified test. There was a test, similar to the one mentioned above, where somebody had used a Canon P&S and compared the results to a Hasselblad. Mot people couldn't see any discernible difference. Not sure now if they also used 43" ;-)

Something to think about??

Deed
 
The following is quoted below with the kind permission of Petapixel.com

This comparison, by Norwegian professional photographer and photography teacher/author Magnar W. Fjørtoft, is backed up with a real test. He shot a scene of a shipyard containing great detail at f/8 on his old 12mp APS-C camera and his brand new 24mp full frame camera.

He printed each photo 43″ wide and asked a group of 30 photo professionals and enthusiasts to write down which camera shot each print. Was it the 12mp APS-C or the 24mp full frame? They were allowed to examine the prints as closely as they wished.

Only 50% of their calls were correct, which is the same a flipping a coin. Magnar said that he himself could not detect a difference between the prints and had to label them on the back “A” and “B” to keep track of which was which.

After printing both images, Magnar wrote, “We simply could not believe our eyes! Then we laughed and laughed. We could not spot any differences!”
That is remarkable, I would have guessed Medium Format would be easily recognizable. 'Differences' in audio equipment often disappears in 'unfair' Blind Comparisons, the expectation bias is a powerful force,

check this out:


I never print large, and I have stated many times that I cannot tell the difference between my 1" rx100's images and my FF RX1r when viewed on my 27" monitor.

Except for FF sensor's shallow focus capability, that can be readily seen even as small as Large Icon Size
Bear in mind that when you use SONY sensors, the pixel pitch of the:
  • 26Mpx APS-C,
  • 60Mpx FF and
  • 100Mpx MF
... is identical. Since a lot of people "zoom in" to 100% they would see the same detail in all 3 sensors.

And if the example was also about scaling, e.g. getting 12Mpx to resolve 43", that is then roughly 100px/inch. The 24Mpx sensor gives you 139px/inch. A matter of diminishing returns as you cannot carry on down-scaling the image. The A7RV resolves 221px/inch ... you see where this is going?? You pick some random size (43" - and why not??) and then draw some conclusions regarding sensor size. But you cannot keep on doing this as your eyes have only so much resolving power. And then of course, a BIG one: what subject?

Then there's the issue of printing ... another mini-equalizer on the way ...

Having sad all this: what's this got to do with fixed lens cameras?

So in short there's more to this than a simplified test. There was a test, similar to the one mentioned above, where somebody had used a Canon P&S and compared the results to a Hasselblad. Mot people couldn't see any discernible difference. Not sure now if they also used 43" ;-)

Something to think about??

Deed
Another good post about camera resolution vs. practical usage. About 12 years ago, PC Magazine tested cellphone cameras using various size prints. The determined that 13x19 in. was the largest size that still looked good at normal viewing distance(12 YEARS AGO). What about my iphone 16 today?

The late mountain photographer, Galen Rowell, had no trouble selling 20x30 in. prints FROM FILM,

At about the same time, I was selling 16x24 in. prints from Provia 100F.

I think 43" would be a little too large for a Canon P&S. I was selling 12x18 in. prints from my Canon PowerShot G9(12 mpx), no one complained.

To me, large resolution sensor cameras are about low light and extremely large prints for detail retention.
 
To me, large resolution sensor cameras are about low light and extremely large prints for detail retention.
It is also about cropping and composition options.
 
To me, large resolution sensor cameras are about low light and extremely large prints for detail retention.
It is also about cropping and composition options.
Cropping blurs intent though!

(you know what I am talking about right??)
I don't think so, let me know what you mean. I like to crop because sometimes I know the scene is interesting but don't know why. And sometimes you can get multiple pictures from a good shot.
 
To me, large resolution sensor cameras are about low light and extremely large prints for detail retention.
It is also about cropping and composition options.
Cropping blurs intent though!

(you know what I am talking about right??)
I don't think so, let me know what you mean. I like to crop because sometimes I know the scene is interesting but don't know why. And sometimes you can get multiple pictures from a good shot.
I have noticed that we roll differently when it comes to shooting. I typically have an idea and then see whether I can get there:



29301bd5d4f94a71a0e83a3ec8d2e0d4.jpg

I could have used a GFX100RF, then shot something and then try to see what I can find at my computer by cropping. Is this how you work? Not always but "why not"??

You see I don't. I frame things first in my mind then through the lens. Doing this gives me some pleasure as if I am "discovering" what is in front of me. I feel like I want to shoot people, so don't use a wide angle zoom, but either a portrait lens, 65-105 mm, maybe, but not a 16-35 and then crop later. Or some special lens, like the Fuji 35/14:



260c9ba530434253bd4232d14a174a2c.jpg

Your approach would have given you some options, like cropping the whole person in - or just the face?? I took the photo the way you see it here. There may be some merit in your approach but I am not seeing it and don't want to go down that route.

But: whatever rocks your boat, I could still have a beer with you and secretly think about your next ventures, 28-400?? Canon?? Ricoh?? PhaseOne? ;-) any chance to see some of your photos??

Deed
 
I do somewhat agree. I can’t personally see the point of the GF100RF, but I’m also open minded enough to understand that just because it’s not for me doesn’t make it crazy. The 50-150 is eye wateringly expensive and not for me either, but Sony wasn’t crazy to make it.
I would say the main point of it is as a landscape/travel camera personally were extreme DOF isnt really needed.

Honestly though these days I think Medium Format generally isnt really so focused on DOF control as it was in the past because the FF options have become so good, you want extreme DOF control and FF F/1.2 primes(or faster) are probably your best option. Most of the appeal of MF these days tends to be the extreme IQ.

Generally I tend to agree with your original post, fixed lens cameras do tend to offer quite significant size savings over interchangeable lenses.

I would say as well many people probably do not like getting drawn into potentially owning multiple systems either so if your current mount doesn't offer a small camera which suits you a fixed lens option maybe attractive.
 
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Indeed. The megapixel levels are a bit nutty. The move from printed copy to pixel peeped images in a screen has skewed people away from what’s important.
I'd be fairly confident that people buying MF tend to be printing MORE not less than smaller systems.

I tend to think the declining in printing has actually had the opposite effect, its downplayed the advantage of larger formats. All sorts of myths have become very popular, that you can make just as good prints for a 1 inch sensor up to 60 inchs or something.
 

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