determining sharpness in photos

[jamn]

In a current thread ...

660 images were taken to allow comparison of the sharpest images in each condition.

I am curious to know how you reviewed 660 images for sharpness. Did you look at each image? Or use software? I am asking because I have recently been more interested in finding critical sharpness in a large number of focus stack shots. For the moment I am planning on using Fast Raw Viewer (which I do own) for this purpose, but have not dug into the program yet.

Thanks,

Jay

 

[HicHic]

I don't have an efficient way of doing it. I just stack them in Photoshop in many layers and go through them manually, hiding/showing each layer to compare. It's very time consuming, but it works.

 

[Danielvr]

I am curious to know how you reviewed 660 images for sharpness. Did you look at each image? Or use software? I am asking because I have recently been more interested in finding critical sharpness in a large number of focus stack shots.

OM Workspace has a Focus Analyzer feature that can help you to pick the sharpest frames from a sequential burst. I've never used it myself and I don't know if it works with focus stack images, but it might be worth a try?

 

[drj3]

It is a lot easier when I use my computer monitor at an angle as a target and sharpness of subpixels as my dependent variable since I can immediately know where the camera focused and eliminate focus variability as a confounding variable. As long as there is no motion blur almost every image for each condition is exactly the same at the same focus point, so it is mostly picking images that focused on the same point.

For images with a flat target it is a lot more time consuming where focus variability is the confounding variable.

First I look through several images in each condition and find some very small feature on which to base the comparison. Then I do a quick crop of that area for each condition and upsize it to 400%. Then I use WS and simply click on that point on each with WS set for 400% enlargement and assign a colors to those sharper than my crop. Then select these sharper images and compare to select a set as possible images. Now from those compare on a second area crop of different detail to try to pick the best one for each condition. There will typically little difference in most of these since they are typically focused at the same distance.

The only reason that this is time consuming is that there will always be focus variability which is why I almost always use my angled computer monitor for initial tests of sharpness.

The attached image is for the two areas upsized to 400% that I used for my comparison of the 300mm f4 with the 50-200 f2.8. First I compared the specific thread detail in the top part of the image and then from the selected set use the crop of the acrylic paint at the bottom of the attached to select the final image.





--
drj3

 

[HicHic]

It is a lot easier when I use my computer monitor at an angle as a target and sharpness of subpixels as my dependent variable since I can immediately know where the camera focused and eliminate focus variability as a confounding variable. As long as there is no motion blur almost every image for each condition is exactly the same at the same focus point, so it is mostly picking images that focused on the same point.

For images with a flat target it is a lot more time consuming where focus variability is the confounding variable.

First I look through several images in each condition and find some very small feature on which to base the comparison. Then I do a quick crop of that area for each condition and upsize it to 400%. Then I use WS and simply click on that point on each with WS set for 400% enlargement and assign a colors to those sharper than my crop. Then select these sharper images and compare to select a set as possible images. Now from those compare on a second area crop of different detail to try to pick the best one for each condition. There will typically little difference in most of these since they are typically focused at the same distance.

The only reason that this is time consuming is that there will always be focus variability which is why I almost always use my angled computer monitor for initial tests of sharpness.

The attached image is for the two areas upsized to 400% that I used for my comparison of the 300mm f4 with the 50-200 f2.8. First I compared the specific thread detail in the top part of the image and then from the selected set use the crop of the acrylic paint at the bottom of the attached to select the final image.



--
drj3

I find this focus variability to be much higher on my M43 cameras compared to my R5 and 5DSR. Not sure why.

 

[jamn]

I don't have an efficient way of doing it. I just stack them in Photoshop in many layers and go through them manually, hiding/showing each layer to compare. It's very time consuming, but it works.

I have been trying to cull before sending to PS or Zerene. You might try Fast Raw Viewer. It highlights in Green lines what is in critical focus or you can choose to see what is in acceptable focus which is highlighted in red. One of the nice things about FRV is it reads the raw image directly from the card. No need to import photos that will not be used. The other is that it reads and presents the images incredibly quickly. Beats LRc by a mile. It has some other useful capabilities, but as I mentioned I am not familiar with it.

Jay

 

[HicHic]

I don't have an efficient way of doing it. I just stack them in Photoshop in many layers and go through them manually, hiding/showing each layer to compare. It's very time consuming, but it works.

I have been trying to cull before sending to PS or Zerene. You might try Fast Raw Viewer. It highlights in Green lines what is in critical focus or you can choose to see what is in acceptable focus which is highlighted in red. One of the nice things about FRV is it reads the raw image directly from the card. No need to import photos that will not be used. The other is that it reads and presents the images incredibly quickly. Beats LRc by a mile. It has some other useful capabilities, but as I mentioned I am not familiar with it.

Jay

Oh yeah I have Fast Raw Viewer too, but I don't use it much.

 

[Sujiar]

Im probably the only person in the world to use my camera body, HDMI cable and large screen tv to cull 100s of ProCap shots.... 14X on a 56" screen from 10 feet away its pretty easy to see which eye etc is sharpest and marking them with either a lock or check. Plus , retaining muscle memory of the button or dials on the camera is always a good thing!

--
Suji
Bears, Birds & Beauty - https://sujiphoto.smugmug.com

 

[HicHic]

Im probably the only person in the world to use my camera body, HDMI cable and large screen tv to cull 100s of ProCap shots.... 14X on a 56" screen from 10 feet away its pretty easy to see which eye etc is sharpest and marking them with either a lock or check. Plus , retaining muscle memory of the button or dials on the camera is always a good thing!

 

[jamn]

drj3, thank you for the detailed explanation. It never ceases to amaze me the variety of approaches we all take to solve any given challenge. I think that you have a greater understanding of all the dynamics involved in determining sharpness than I do and likely most others, but I will work on it.

drj3 wrote "Put the actual sharpness in perspective. Yes it is sharper stopped down, but at f2.8 only a little less sharp than one of the sharpest lenses for mFTs." Which lens is the sharpest?

drj3 wrote "It is not the level of sharpness of the in-focus area that makes this lens, it is the difference in the out of focus areas that make this lens a keeper for me. I don't have any hesitancy to photograph my deer with busy backgrounds." That is the intriguing aspect of the 50-200 that has me pondering it.

Thanks again for the information,

Jay

 

[HicHic]

Which lens is the sharpest?

Stopped down, maybe the 17 or 45. The 10-25 and 25-50 are right up there too.

 

[prairiedog]

I try to cull my pro capture photos in the field during downtimes. It's very fast and convenient to do on the OM-1. It has a very good file delete system.

I'd disagree. The G9ii groups bursts together which makes it miles easier to

1. know where each burst starts and ends

2. review each burst separately

3. delete a burst in one go

The OM-1 frustrates me like mad through its clumsy select/delete functionality relative to the G9ii's.

 

[philzucker]

In a current thread ...

660 images were taken to allow comparison of the sharpest images in each condition.

I am curious to know how you reviewed 660 images for sharpness. Did you look at each image? Or use software? I am asking because I have recently been more interested in finding critical sharpness in a large number of focus stack shots. For the moment I am planning on using Fast Raw Viewer (which I do own) for this purpose, but have not dug into the program yet.

I use Fast Raw Viewer to cull from bursts (especially from ProCapture ones) and find it really efficient. I load the pictures into FRV directly from the UHS-2 SD card on an USB-3 card reader (no lags at all), view them full screen and see instantly if the picturea are bad enough to not warrant any further inspection. For all others a single click activates 1:1 view for check of critical sharpness or other things. Then it's only one more click for marking the picture and to advance to the next one. That way I can go quickly through a large body of pics, often in a 4 digit range. Only the pictures marked as "worthy" are imported to LR finally.

Phil

--
GMT +1
Gallery: http://photosan.smugmug.com

 

[Trevor Carpenter]

Im probably the only person in the world to use my camera body, HDMI cable and large screen tv to cull 100s of ProCap shots.... 14X on a 56" screen from 10 feet away its pretty easy to see which eye etc is sharpest and marking them with either a lock or check. Plus , retaining muscle memory of the button or dials on the camera is always a good thing!

I try to cull my pro capture photos in the field during downtimes. It's very fast and convenient to do on the OM-1. It has a very good file delete system.

Interesting because many of my pictures look great on the back of the camera but don't have the same quality when I review them on my much much larger PC screen.

 

[ChuckB]

I don't have an efficient way of doing it. I just stack them in Photoshop in many layers and go through them manually, hiding/showing each layer to compare. It's very time consuming, but it works.

I have been trying to cull before sending to PS or Zerene. You might try Fast Raw Viewer. It highlights in Green lines what is in critical focus or you can choose to see what is in acceptable focus which is highlighted in red. One of the nice things about FRV is it reads the raw image directly from the card. No need to import photos that will not be used. The other is that it reads and presents the images incredibly quickly. Beats LRc by a mile. It has some other useful capabilities, but as I mentioned I am not familiar with it.

I thought one of the features of Zerene (or any stacking software) was to find the sharper images and stack only them. IOW, why not let Zerene sort through all the images while you have a coffee?

 

[HicHic]

I try to cull my pro capture photos in the field during downtimes. It's very fast and convenient to do on the OM-1. It has a very good file delete system.

I'd disagree. The G9ii groups bursts together which makes it miles easier to

1. know where each burst starts and ends

2. review each burst separately

3. delete a burst in one go

The OM-1 frustrates me like mad through its clumsy select/delete functionality relative to the G9ii's.

If I have a group of bursts and want to delete select photos in it, what's the easiest way to do that?

 

[HicHic]

Im probably the only person in the world to use my camera body, HDMI cable and large screen tv to cull 100s of ProCap shots.... 14X on a 56" screen from 10 feet away its pretty easy to see which eye etc is sharpest and marking them with either a lock or check. Plus , retaining muscle memory of the button or dials on the camera is always a good thing!

I try to cull my pro capture photos in the field during downtimes. It's very fast and convenient to do on the OM-1. It has a very good file delete system.

Interesting because many of my pictures look great on the back of the camera but don't have the same quality when I review them on my much much larger PC screen.

Maybe sharpening to jpegs and on PC you're viewing raws?

 

[jamn]

In a current thread ...

660 images were taken to allow comparison of the sharpest images in each condition.

I am curious to know how you reviewed 660 images for sharpness. Did you look at each image? Or use software? I am asking because I have recently been more interested in finding critical sharpness in a large number of focus stack shots. For the moment I am planning on using Fast Raw Viewer (which I do own) for this purpose, but have not dug into the program yet.

I use Fast Raw Viewer to cull from bursts (especially from ProCapture ones) and find it really efficient. I load the pictures into FRV directly from the UHS-2 SD card on an USB-3 card reader (no lags at all), view them full screen and see instantly if the picturea are bad enough to not warrant any further inspection. For all others a single click activates 1:1 view for check of critical sharpness or other things. Then it's only one more click for marking the picture and to advance to the next one. That way I can go quickly through a large body of pics, often in a 4 digit range. Only the pictures marked as "worthy" are imported to LR finally.

Phil

Thanks Phil, this is the direction I will be going in. It's nice to hear the speedy previews and ease of selecting work well.

Jay

 

[drj3]

drj3, thank you for the detailed explanation. It never ceases to amaze me the variety of approaches we all take to solve any given challenge. I think that you have a greater understanding of all the dynamics involved in determining sharpness than I do and likely most others, but I will work on it.

drj3 wrote "Put the actual sharpness in perspective. Yes it is sharper stopped down, but at f2.8 only a little less sharp than one of the sharpest lenses for mFTs." Which lens is the sharpest?

The one I compared it to was the 300mm f4. The other two for an appropriate comparison would be the 200mm f2.8 Panasonic and the 150-400 f4.5.

drj3 wrote "It is not the level of sharpness of the in-focus area that makes this lens, it is the difference in the out of focus areas that make this lens a keeper for me. I don't have any hesitancy to photograph my deer with busy backgrounds." That is the intriguing aspect of the 50-200 that has me pondering it.

Thanks again for the information,

Jay

 

[Will Rose]

Im probably the only person in the world to use my camera body, HDMI cable and large screen tv to cull 100s of ProCap shots.... 14X on a 56" screen from 10 feet away its pretty easy to see which eye etc is sharpest and marking them with either a lock or check. Plus , retaining muscle memory of the button or dials on the camera is always a good thing!

I try to cull my pro capture photos in the field during downtimes. It's very fast and convenient to do on the OM-1. It has a very good file delete system.

No it doesn’t. The OM-1 delete system is pathetically inadequate.

You can’t delete an entire burst. You can’t even IDENTIFY an entire burst.

For a camera that can generate 120 images in a second, to delete 120 images, you have to hold a button while endlessly spinning a wheel like a lunatic. To delete many bursts, hundreds of images, either risk a blister or do it on the computer. Your idea of “very fast and convenient” eludes me.

The OM-1 is even worse than its predecessor in this regard. The EM-1 mk2-3 wheels were open and accessible, and could be spun endlessly. The ridiculous recessed wheels on the OM-1 can only be rotated a short way before you must stop and raise and reposition your finger/thumb to start again.

The arrow buttons, which let you move through images 10 at a time, are unusable for selecting images for deletion, because OM evidently enjoys playing bad jokes on its users.

You can delete ALL the images easily, but that’s only safe if you religiously protect or rate the ones you want to keep first.

When it was released, the OM1 was the fastest camera in the world. But it has (still, because of a total lack of feature improvements via firmware) a delete system designed for one-at-a-time. Unless you’re doing an erase all, every single image must receive either an individual button press or a wheel click.

That is just not appropriate for a high speed camera.