Compact rumors?

[CJAM]

It's no surprise that physical stores are suffering in many countries, such as the UK, as they are legally prevented from opening :-( and us photographers have found our hobby has effectively been made illegal too. What a mad world we live in, sometimes I just wish Putin would get on with it and drop the Big Bomb and put us all out if our misery . This isn't living, its simply surviving from one day to the next and it's doing my head in after almost a year. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose mental health has been shot to pieces because of government actions. Quite how shops and restaurants are ever going to recover, I don't know. Who is still going to have a job and be able to afford photography as a hobby in a few months time is also open to debate

 

[Overrank]

Film is not the mainstream photography choice of the moment though... and there are over 90 years worth of used 35mm film cameras to choose from. Digital, whether it be phones or dedicated cameras, is still mainstream. Video is super popular and that alone will keep lower end non phone cameras in the mix for the foreseeable future. Dedicated digital cameras are no longer mainstream, but there are certainly people who still want them to do serious photography. Of that group, there is a subgroup who thinks size is important.

Film may not be mainstream but Fujifilm sold more film cameras in 2018 than high end digital cameras.

That’s Instax. It does well... but how’s their roll and sheet film doing? How many have they cancelled in the last 5 years?

No idea. Apart from expired C200 in 35mm I don’t use Fujifilm film. Doesn’t really change the position of Instax vs Fujifilm digital though.
Kodak have started make two films again in the last two years, and have just announced two more, Lomography have made a few new one, etc etc

If you ignore the “second system users” I.e. those who grew up with film but then converted to digital, and just look at “digital natives” then my experience is that most are quite happy with phones, and can see no compelling reason to buy a standalone camera (I’m talking most, not all, of course). They use phones for photos and video - they even fit them into steadicam arrangements and (pre COVID) make travel videos.

I guess my experience is weighted towards artists, but every young person I know who is serious about photography is still using a dedicated camera.

Given that the only thing I mentioned was digital natives, I don’t know where the “artists” came from ? Still, I suspect basing a business on the spending power of artists will lead one way.

I was very taken by a shop that only sold film cameras that I went to a couple of years ago. It was full of people, all under 30. In comparison the average high street camera shop in the U.K. is struggling, because theres no unique selling point.

Sure, it’s no surprise physical stores are struggling... many people just buy online.

My point being that the film camera store wasn’t struggling, and there are lots of on line outlets for film cameras. Note that this was long before COVID, so purely commercial interests

 

[OldSchoolNewSchool]

It's no surprise that physical stores are suffering in many countries, such as the UK, as they are legally prevented from opening :-( and us photographers have found our hobby has effectively been made illegal too. What a mad world we live in, sometimes I just wish Putin would get on with it and drop the Big Bomb and put us all out if our misery . This isn't living, its simply surviving from one day to the next and it's doing my head in after almost a year. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose mental health has been shot to pieces because of government actions. Quite how shops and restaurants are ever going to recover, I don't know. Who is still going to have a job and be able to afford photography as a hobby in a few months time is also open to debate

Well, I am not as down as you are about things right now, but I understand your thinking. I have had my low points in the last several months. The bad times will not last forever. In terms of your photography, why not find projects you can do at home and in your neighborhood. It might brighten things, even if temporarily.

 

[John Gellings]

Film is not the mainstream photography choice of the moment though... and there are over 90 years worth of used 35mm film cameras to choose from. Digital, whether it be phones or dedicated cameras, is still mainstream. Video is super popular and that alone will keep lower end non phone cameras in the mix for the foreseeable future. Dedicated digital cameras are no longer mainstream, but there are certainly people who still want them to do serious photography. Of that group, there is a subgroup who thinks size is important.

Film may not be mainstream but Fujifilm sold more film cameras in 2018 than high end digital cameras.

That’s Instax. It does well... but how’s their roll and sheet film doing? How many have they cancelled in the last 5 years?

No idea. Apart from expired C200 in 35mm I don’t use Fujifilm film. Doesn’t really change the position of Instax vs Fujifilm digital though.
Kodak have started make two films again in the last two years, and have just announced two more, Lomography have made a few new one, etc etc

If you ignore the “second system users” I.e. those who grew up with film but then converted to digital, and just look at “digital natives” then my experience is that most are quite happy with phones, and can see no compelling reason to buy a standalone camera (I’m talking most, not all, of course). They use phones for photos and video - they even fit them into steadicam arrangements and (pre COVID) make travel videos.

I guess my experience is weighted towards artists, but every young person I know who is serious about photography is still using a dedicated camera.

Given that the only thing I mentioned was digital natives, I don’t know where the “artists” came from ? Still, I suspect basing a business on the spending power of artists will lead one way.

I was very taken by a shop that only sold film cameras that I went to a couple of years ago. It was full of people, all under 30. In comparison the average high street camera shop in the U.K. is struggling, because theres no unique selling point.

Sure, it’s no surprise physical stores are struggling... many people just buy online.

My point being that the film camera store wasn’t struggling, and there are lots of on line outlets for film cameras. Note that this was long before COVID, so purely commercial interests

You win man... have a great day!

 

[Mark B.]

It's no surprise that physical stores are suffering in many countries, such as the UK, as they are legally prevented from opening :-( and us photographers have found our hobby has effectively been made illegal too. What a mad world we live in, sometimes I just wish Putin would get on with it and drop the Big Bomb and put us all out if our misery . This isn't living, its simply surviving from one day to the next and it's doing my head in after almost a year. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose mental health has been shot to pieces because of government actions. Quite how shops and restaurants are ever going to recover, I don't know. Who is still going to have a job and be able to afford photography as a hobby in a few months time is also open to debate

Camera shops, at least here, in the US, have been closing long before the pandemic. The internet is to blame for that more than anything.

 

[John Gellings]

However, unlike with a digital camera which loses money, when I’ve sold my film cameras I nearly always get back what I’ve paid for them, and most times recently the rising price of film cameras means that it’s cost neutral, including the film.

Yeah but if I make 20000 photos on a digital, didn’t pay for any film and still sell the body later... are we really talking about any savings?

 

[Overrank]

However, unlike with a digital camera which loses money, when I’ve sold my film cameras I nearly always get back what I’ve paid for them, and most times recently the rising price of film cameras means that it’s cost neutral, including the film.

Yeah but if I make 20000 photos on a digital, didn’t pay for any film and still sell the body later... are we really talking about any savings?

That’s a function of how many photos you take, how many cameras you have, which ones and time. If you’d bought twenty Contax T2s a few years ago and taken a roll each then you’d be £££££s in, whereas if you’d bought a single Pentax Espio and shot tens of rolls of film, then less so.

 

[BrentSchumer]

However, unlike with a digital camera which loses money, when I’ve sold my film cameras I nearly always get back what I’ve paid for them, and most times recently the rising price of film cameras means that it’s cost neutral, including the film.

Yeah but if I make 20000 photos on a digital, didn’t pay for any film and still sell the body later... are we really talking about any savings?

This is a really good point. If I had to pay for film and processing I would probably have dropped the hobby well before I hit a single thousand shots instead of taking thousands of pictures on a two-week trip.

 

[Wingsfan]

Getting back to the original question, I'd to see a few enthusiast compact cameras updated like the lumix TZ ( I love my tz/zs100 more than my rx100m6 and g7x).

I think it would be interesting if maybe they had a clickable set of fixed focal lengths, maybe 35/75/150/300, or several other fixed focal lengths, I don't know if that would simplify things if you could get the diff/refractions and lens spacing figured out.

But I think were catering to the high end market at this point as most people will just use their phones. Even with my latest Samsung phone I don't feel the need to necessarily bring a compact camera with me everywhere I go any longer (These tend to be casual family snapshots that I'm more likely to text somebody than to print). If I think I'm going anywhere that might require something better, I do keep an enthusiast compact camera in each of my cars.

 

[Howard V]

Phone cameras are gaining on you.

Unfortunately they taken over this space but I hate them ergonomically and once you need to print large they cannot they suck. In great light they are passable.

1. A new generation has no problem with the ergonomics, because they're handling them all day. 2. Hardly anyone prints large. 3. They're gaining in low light because of advanced A.I. Very recent low light modes are much better. I somewhat agree with your assessments. But as a consumer group younger people don't, and they are driving the future of imaging.

Like I said... serious photographers. People who make books, show in galleries and museums, and those who aspire to do so. This is a niche who still use real cameras generally speaking. And that’s not be even getting into the type of photographers in which they just love cameras. Cell phones are mainstream just like Kodak 126/110/Disc compacts in the 60/70/80s, cheap 35mm p&s in the 90s and small sensor digital cameras later on. Yet, people still bought more expensive specialty cameras and still do. I still want a high quality large sensor compact. I doubt I’m alone.

The way I see the market moving is phones and high priced, high specification digital. The middle area is being hollowed out because there isn’t enough profit at the prices people will pay, or the volume that phones command.
Remember that there were high specification126 and 110 cameras for serious amateurs, but they are much rarer than the fixed focus, fixed aperture models. Even though some of the 126 models are comparable in image quality to similar 35mm at the time.

Well, that’s certainly an easy prediction to make. However, are you really saying that you will either have to be rich or use a phone to enjoy photography with a new device?

 

[Overrank]

Phone cameras are gaining on you.

Unfortunately they taken over this space but I hate them ergonomically and once you need to print large they cannot they suck. In great light they are passable.

1. A new generation has no problem with the ergonomics, because they're handling them all day. 2. Hardly anyone prints large. 3. They're gaining in low light because of advanced A.I. Very recent low light modes are much better. I somewhat agree with your assessments. But as a consumer group younger people don't, and they are driving the future of imaging.

Like I said... serious photographers. People who make books, show in galleries and museums, and those who aspire to do so. This is a niche who still use real cameras generally speaking. And that’s not be even getting into the type of photographers in which they just love cameras. Cell phones are mainstream just like Kodak 126/110/Disc compacts in the 60/70/80s, cheap 35mm p&s in the 90s and small sensor digital cameras later on. Yet, people still bought more expensive specialty cameras and still do. I still want a high quality large sensor compact. I doubt I’m alone.

The way I see the market moving is phones and high priced, high specification digital. The middle area is being hollowed out because there isn’t enough profit at the prices people will pay, or the volume that phones command.
Remember that there were high specification126 and 110 cameras for serious amateurs, but they are much rarer than the fixed focus, fixed aperture models. Even though some of the 126 models are comparable in image quality to similar 35mm at the time.

Well, that’s certainly an easy prediction to make. However, are you really saying that you will either have to be rich or use a phone to enjoy photography with a new device?

The used market will probably fill in the middle for some time. Another middle price sector is discontinued, but still “new”. My latest new body purchase was at half the 2016 introductory price.

Agreed. I’ve just bought a Nikon S1 - perfect condition, with around 400 shutter actuations, for less than £50 with lens, vs £450 new 7 years ago. It’s a lovely compact walk-around, takes nice pictures, but it’s a dead end, hence the low prices.

 

[Overrank]

But I think were catering to the high end market at this point as most people will just use their phones. Even with my latest Samsung phone I don't feel the need to necessarily bring a compact camera with me everywhere I go any longer (These tend to be casual family snapshots that I'm more likely to text somebody than to print).

That was my original point, phones are “good enough” for 95%+ of the market, and the only way for manufacturers to make money is to chase the prices upwards. That is especially true as most digital SLRs and MILCs made within the last 10 years are very capable of making nice photographs.

 

[John Gellings]

I have no problem paying $2000+ if someone can make me Ricoh GR sized camera with a FF sensor, a pop-up evf and a 45-50mm lens. Unfortunately, price is not the bottleneck for a camera like this.

 

[Overrank]

I have no problem paying $2000+ if someone can make me Ricoh GR sized camera with a FF sensor, a pop-up evf and a 45-50mm lens. Unfortunately, price is not the bottleneck for a camera like this.

What is the bottleneck ? It can’t be optics as there are many full frame film cameras with similar optics to the GR that are smaller (I was using one this morning). If it’s sensor size, batteries etc then that’s just a question of waiting for the technology to catch up.

 

[Harold66]

I have no problem paying $2000+ if someone can make me Ricoh GR sized camera with a FF sensor, a pop-up evf and a 45-50mm lens. Unfortunately, price is not the bottleneck for a camera like this.

What is the bottleneck ? It can’t be optics as there are many full frame film cameras with similar optics to the GR that are smaller (I was using one this morning).

Apples and oranges . design of an optic for digital camera has too be different because of how the light hits the sensor . This has been discussed a million times already :-x
Harold

 

[Harold66]

I have no problem paying $2000+ if someone can make me Ricoh GR sized camera with a FF sensor,

then you can say goodbye to the snap shot usefulness . Fortunately , I think Ricoh understands this even if you don t
Harold

 

[Overrank]

I have no problem paying $2000+ if someone can make me Ricoh GR sized camera with a FF sensor, a pop-up evf and a 45-50mm lens. Unfortunately, price is not the bottleneck for a camera like this.

What is the bottleneck ? It can’t be optics as there are many full frame film cameras with similar optics to the GR that are smaller (I was using one this morning).

Apples and oranges . design of an optic for digital camera has too be different because of how the light hits the sensor . This has been discussed a million times already :-x

Harold

Different and significantly bigger ?

 

[CJAM]

Bottleneck? Camera manufacturers exist to make a profit for their investors. They have to finance the R&D necessary to develop a new camera, fund the manufacturing line (tooling, staff training etc), market then sell the camera at such a price that they can repay all their investment, and make a profit... all within the lifetime of that camera's sales. With falling demand, that's a tough call for any camera manufacturer making any compact model. At least with interchangeable lens cameras there are further sales of lenses, accessories, additional batteries etc to help with the bottom line

 

[John Gellings]

I have no problem paying $2000+ if someone can make me Ricoh GR sized camera with a FF sensor, a pop-up evf and a 45-50mm lens. Unfortunately, price is not the bottleneck for a camera like this.

What is the bottleneck ? It can’t be optics as there are many full frame film cameras with similar optics to the GR that are smaller (I was using one this morning). If it’s sensor size, batteries etc then that’s just a question of waiting for the technology to catch up.

Which FF camera has an autofocus lens smaller than the GR on a body as small as the GR? And yes, I agree, it's a matter of waiting for technology to catch up.

 

[John Gellings]

At least with interchangeable lens cameras there are further sales of lenses, accessories, additional batteries etc to help with the bottom line

But how long will this last when all of them are basically making the same cameras these days (with the exception of a few models)?