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Changing Systems- Avoiding Financial Loss
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Don Lacy
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I have a friend changing systems who is heavily invested in the system he is leaving he is offering his gear at slightly higher prices then what the used retailers would pay when it is all said and done I would estimate he is losing close to 7,000.00 on lenses. Now he could come close to cutting that in half if he wanted to ask the going used prices you find on EBay or FM but that could take months and he wants to be done with it as soon as possible. So if you want convenience you will get less money if you want the best price you have to deal with the back and forth of selling it online to others. Either way you will lose money.
Anthony1970
Senior Member
Photo gear as an investment specialy at a fast moving market, new gear now will be old next year due the rapid launches of newer "better " gear.
Ask yourself this question "do I need or do I want" ?.
What is the importance of the new gear and what can it do you cannot on this moment ?
Ask yourself this question "do I need or do I want" ?.
What is the importance of the new gear and what can it do you cannot on this moment ?
I still use lenses and macro equipment that I have had for decades. They work on modern cameras with adapters.
If changing systems, a lot depends on which systems. If you are going from a DSLR to a mirrorless camera, you can use your existing lenses with adapters for a while and take your time over buying new lenses.
It also depends on your budget. Some people on these forums are rich Americans, others are not.
You are buying photographs, not lenses and cameras. An "investment" is the cost of whatever equipment will get you the most good photographs.
Jonathan Brady
Veteran Member
The most important part of the selling strategy is to purchase intelligently to minimize out of pocket expenses. A couple of ways to do this are:
The first is to CLEAN the gear and take some really good pictures of it and then to spend some time writing a really good ad. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen great gear at a fair price just sit because the seller puts up a one-sentence ad with no pictures or bad pictures of gear that really just needs to be cleaned. Usually, there are several copies of whatever you're selling available, often at a similar price and unless you do something to set yours apart, it'll sell last or not at all. Here's an example of an ad I wrote on FredMiranda.com's buy/sell forum recently and the lens sold for the full asking price in about 20 minutes.
A bonus of writing a thorough ad is that you get fewer inquiries. Wait, that's a bonus? Yeah! It is! You weed out the people asking the same questions over and over again, but who are unlikely to buy. This makes selling less of a hassle. Additionally, the people who DO contact you are generally VERY serious about purchasing and they're also VERY confident in your abilities as a seller as you appear to be quite thorough and detail-oriented. This can lead to fewer negotiations and thus, a higher sales price. I'll take quality leads over a flood of crappy leads every day of the week. Also, CL scammers (Nigerian princes) generally seek out high priced items with practically no description. Speaking of CL, those tend to be less-educated buyers than the folks on places like FM so I usually include more details like what that particular item has as advantages over other items. For instance, my CL ad included details about subject isolation vs a zoom lens, bokeh, the fact that it's considered "the portrait lens for the Sony system", etc. And if someone asks a question that is plainly and obviously addressed by your ad, you don't even need to bother responding because you know it's a scam.
Also, make it EASY for your buyer to buy. Notice that I include PayPal fees, shipping, and shipping insurance in my FM price quote. Buyers don't want to have to do mental gymnastics to figure out what they need to pay. Give them a fair, all-in-one price from the beginning and you're likely to get it. On CL, I point out that I'll only accept cash, no shipping, that we will meet in a public place (I give examples like "Starbucks, your bank, or the police station if you'd prefer").
Another strategy is to list whatever your selling in several places. I always list on FM and Craigslist right away. Also, I tend to price the exact same thing higher on CL. It seems like people on CL want to negotiate more than people on FM so I build that into my asking price.
Unless there's a good reason to do so, don't accept the first offer thrown your way, especially if it's fairly soon after listing the ad. I generally respond to stuff like this (far more prevalent on CL) with something like: "I only recently listed _____ for sale and I listed it for a price that I feel is very fair. I appreciate your offer but I'll have to decline right now. I really do think it will sell at this price or very close to it. However, I'll definitely keep your email and get back to you if I change my mind. But, if you agree that the price is fair currently, I'd love to work with you as this is a great lens/camera/flash/whatever and I think you'll enjoy it!" I can't tell you how many times a response like that has netted a sale at the full asking price (or really close to it). Many times, people are simply trying to save some money (I can't blame them, I do the same) but they're ARE willing to pay your price - especially if you get them to acknowledge that the price is indeed fair. Note: I think "fair" is a very important word as the psychology it implies is very different from a word which points to a similar situation but has a different connotation such as "appropriate". "Fair" is a word that would be used in negotiations and it illustrates that both the buyer and seller are getting a good deal. It's a "feel good" word. It also makes it difficult for the prospective buyer to come back at you with something ridiculous because you've already established that you think the current price is in the right ballpark for what you're willing to accept. Also note, in the situation above, I didn't counter-offer, I offered to let the prospective buyer buy the item at the same cost. This leaves open the opportunity for me to still offer it at a reduced price later because I'd like to work with that buyer. Another response could be "thanks for your offer, I really appreciate you getting in touch! While ___ is lower than I'm currently comfortable with, I'm definitely flexible and would love to work with you. How about asking price less $10?" (or 25 or 50 or 100 - whatever makes sense given the value of the item)
Be willing to wait! If you're not in a rush to sell, you're more likely to get your asking price or close to it. But, at a point, it will start to work against you. If people see your ad for months, they're going to assume something is wrong. So you'll need to find that balance of time vs lower price.
Having original packaging helps as well. It obviously doesn't matter to the images a buyer is going to create, but the closer to "new" the equipment is, the more confidence the buyer will have in that equipment.
Those are a few strategies to maximize your selling prices.
Note: if you're switching from Canon, you're not alone. There are a LOT of people bailing on Canon over the last year and it has depressed the market for Canon items more than the market for equipment of other brands. That said, I do feel like the market is a bit depressed anyway which is likely a reflection of an improved economy as well as the popularity of blinded sellers (like those mentioned above).
- buy used - there is LOTS of equipment for sale via various channels and of varying condition. You can find everything from equipment which is inoperable (ie, for parts only - at least as far as the seller knows) all the way up to something which was purchased new, literally never opened, but can't be returned because it's past the return window and everything in between. Decide where your comfort level stops with regards to condition (and thus, presumed use) and start your search there. Many times, you can find practically brand new gear for 20% off, or maybe more.
- Buy grey market - for gear with low copy-to-copy variance and a great repair history combined with a seller which offers their own warranty of equal duration to the manufacturer, this can be a great strategy.
- Buy from a blinded discount service like Greentoe.com. If you're looking for Canon gear, CanonPriceWatch.com and their "street price" can save you a LOT of money on brand new gear as well.
- Wait for a sale from your favorite vendor
- Buy with a credit card (and pay it off before interest accumulates) as most major credit cards will double your warranty which increases the value of what you've purchased without increasing the cost.
- If you purchase new from an authorized dealer, check into the manufacturer as some will provide a longer warranty if you register the gear. For instance, Zeiss will extend your warranty from 1 year to 3 years if you register your gear on their site. Again, same cost, better value.
- Consider your usage of the gear over time as a very cheap rental.
The first is to CLEAN the gear and take some really good pictures of it and then to spend some time writing a really good ad. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen great gear at a fair price just sit because the seller puts up a one-sentence ad with no pictures or bad pictures of gear that really just needs to be cleaned. Usually, there are several copies of whatever you're selling available, often at a similar price and unless you do something to set yours apart, it'll sell last or not at all. Here's an example of an ad I wrote on FredMiranda.com's buy/sell forum recently and the lens sold for the full asking price in about 20 minutes.
I had recently purchased that lens for $1200 (originally listed for $1450 - which I felt, and apparently so did the market, was too high) and sold it for $1350 (which I think is fair). After PayPal fees and shipping costs, I actually made $80.
A bonus of writing a thorough ad is that you get fewer inquiries. Wait, that's a bonus? Yeah! It is! You weed out the people asking the same questions over and over again, but who are unlikely to buy. This makes selling less of a hassle. Additionally, the people who DO contact you are generally VERY serious about purchasing and they're also VERY confident in your abilities as a seller as you appear to be quite thorough and detail-oriented. This can lead to fewer negotiations and thus, a higher sales price. I'll take quality leads over a flood of crappy leads every day of the week. Also, CL scammers (Nigerian princes) generally seek out high priced items with practically no description. Speaking of CL, those tend to be less-educated buyers than the folks on places like FM so I usually include more details like what that particular item has as advantages over other items. For instance, my CL ad included details about subject isolation vs a zoom lens, bokeh, the fact that it's considered "the portrait lens for the Sony system", etc. And if someone asks a question that is plainly and obviously addressed by your ad, you don't even need to bother responding because you know it's a scam.
Also, make it EASY for your buyer to buy. Notice that I include PayPal fees, shipping, and shipping insurance in my FM price quote. Buyers don't want to have to do mental gymnastics to figure out what they need to pay. Give them a fair, all-in-one price from the beginning and you're likely to get it. On CL, I point out that I'll only accept cash, no shipping, that we will meet in a public place (I give examples like "Starbucks, your bank, or the police station if you'd prefer").
Another strategy is to list whatever your selling in several places. I always list on FM and Craigslist right away. Also, I tend to price the exact same thing higher on CL. It seems like people on CL want to negotiate more than people on FM so I build that into my asking price.
Unless there's a good reason to do so, don't accept the first offer thrown your way, especially if it's fairly soon after listing the ad. I generally respond to stuff like this (far more prevalent on CL) with something like: "I only recently listed _____ for sale and I listed it for a price that I feel is very fair. I appreciate your offer but I'll have to decline right now. I really do think it will sell at this price or very close to it. However, I'll definitely keep your email and get back to you if I change my mind. But, if you agree that the price is fair currently, I'd love to work with you as this is a great lens/camera/flash/whatever and I think you'll enjoy it!" I can't tell you how many times a response like that has netted a sale at the full asking price (or really close to it). Many times, people are simply trying to save some money (I can't blame them, I do the same) but they're ARE willing to pay your price - especially if you get them to acknowledge that the price is indeed fair. Note: I think "fair" is a very important word as the psychology it implies is very different from a word which points to a similar situation but has a different connotation such as "appropriate". "Fair" is a word that would be used in negotiations and it illustrates that both the buyer and seller are getting a good deal. It's a "feel good" word. It also makes it difficult for the prospective buyer to come back at you with something ridiculous because you've already established that you think the current price is in the right ballpark for what you're willing to accept. Also note, in the situation above, I didn't counter-offer, I offered to let the prospective buyer buy the item at the same cost. This leaves open the opportunity for me to still offer it at a reduced price later because I'd like to work with that buyer. Another response could be "thanks for your offer, I really appreciate you getting in touch! While ___ is lower than I'm currently comfortable with, I'm definitely flexible and would love to work with you. How about asking price less $10?" (or 25 or 50 or 100 - whatever makes sense given the value of the item)
Be willing to wait! If you're not in a rush to sell, you're more likely to get your asking price or close to it. But, at a point, it will start to work against you. If people see your ad for months, they're going to assume something is wrong. So you'll need to find that balance of time vs lower price.
Having original packaging helps as well. It obviously doesn't matter to the images a buyer is going to create, but the closer to "new" the equipment is, the more confidence the buyer will have in that equipment.
Those are a few strategies to maximize your selling prices.
Note: if you're switching from Canon, you're not alone. There are a LOT of people bailing on Canon over the last year and it has depressed the market for Canon items more than the market for equipment of other brands. That said, I do feel like the market is a bit depressed anyway which is likely a reflection of an improved economy as well as the popularity of blinded sellers (like those mentioned above).
Gato Amarillo
Forum Pro
I have to disagree with the comments about lenses.
First off, the original post was about changing systems -- which almost always includes changing lenses. There is a much higher chance these days of a person wanting to change systems completely. The days of choosing Canon or Nikon and sticking with it forever are past.
Second, lenses have come a long way in the last few years, and we can expect them to get even better in the future. We see quicker, more accurate focus with every generation, along with improved coatings, more sophisticated optical designs, and more consistent manufacturing techniques. And now we have image stabilization, which also improves and becomes more effective with newer iterations.
Not to mention lenses are mechanically and electronically more complicated and thus more likely to fail over the long run.
While it may be viable to use lenses 10 or 15 years old -- or even older -- they will not give the same performance optically or mechanically as modern lenses. Some may prefer the vintage look, and I won't argue with that, but lenses do change.
If you are happy using older lenses that's great for you, but these days that is a minority position.
Gato
First off, the original post was about changing systems -- which almost always includes changing lenses. There is a much higher chance these days of a person wanting to change systems completely. The days of choosing Canon or Nikon and sticking with it forever are past.
Second, lenses have come a long way in the last few years, and we can expect them to get even better in the future. We see quicker, more accurate focus with every generation, along with improved coatings, more sophisticated optical designs, and more consistent manufacturing techniques. And now we have image stabilization, which also improves and becomes more effective with newer iterations.
Not to mention lenses are mechanically and electronically more complicated and thus more likely to fail over the long run.
While it may be viable to use lenses 10 or 15 years old -- or even older -- they will not give the same performance optically or mechanically as modern lenses. Some may prefer the vintage look, and I won't argue with that, but lenses do change.
If you are happy using older lenses that's great for you, but these days that is a minority position.
Gato
Mr Garibaldi
Leading Member
This only holds true for cheap bodies and consumer level lenses. If one is buying higher end stuff, especially high end glass, then not considering it an investment is just plain stupid.
Gato Amarillo
Forum Pro
"Investment" is the word I used.
Photography equipment can be a significant investment, but generally not a "long term" investment in the digital era.
As with any investment you need to think about your return and payback. Will the equipment pay back its cost -- in either money or pleasure -- within a reasonable time? Will it have resale value? How fast will it depreciate (or appreciate)?
How long will it last? How long will the manufacturer support it? How soon will you want an upgrade? Will it still be useful if you switch to a different system?
All things we need to think about.
Gato
abe4652
Veteran Member
Thanks to all for comments.
I do think that glass can be considered an investment, if one sticks to a major system.
I do think that glass can be considered an investment, if one sticks to a major system.
Mr Garibaldi
Leading Member
This is true for the digital equipment, not so much for the analogue equipment (optics). Half a dozen modern high end lenses could run $20k. I don’t know many people who can take that kind of hit on a whim.
It all depreciates, which is why it is stupid to change systems on a whim. The financial hit can be huge.
In other words, you advocate the Crystal ball and Ouiji Board as decision making tools.
Excellent.
Maybe if all you buy is disposable bodies and entry level consumer zooms. If you have taken the time to build a quality system comprising a dozen or more lenses and brand specific accessories, it’s probably a better idea to learn to live with the First World Problem of not having a parade of China consumer goods going through your front door.
If you want to avoid taking a financial loss, which is the subject of the thread, the best way to do it is to not take the loss.
Mr Garibaldi
Leading Member
If you are interested in taking pictures rather than impressing your friends with what you can spend on gear, older lenses can make great photographs.
riveredger
Veteran Member
An investment in your photography hobby, but not an investment that you should expect to grow in value.
DMKAlex
Veteran Member
You should have more faith in mankind. I have bought and sold on eBay with my cameras and lenses. Some of them were $2,000+. I had not had anyone claiming I shipped him/her a brick. And I had bought lenses that I am very happy with from eBay. As a matter of fact, I vow that I would probably never buy a piece of new equipment again.
On the other hand, I had nothing but scammers or non-serious inquiries with craigslist.
liopleurodon
Senior Member
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Buy your gear USED! You can often sell it for little to no loss.
If you can adapt some lenses to a new system instead of buying new ones do so! I'm using my Canon 55-250 and 17-55 on my Sony mirrorless.
If you can adapt some lenses to a new system instead of buying new ones do so! I'm using my Canon 55-250 and 17-55 on my Sony mirrorless.
Michael Fryd
Forum Pro
The biggest cost is not that you are changing systems, but that you are going from used gear to new gear. The next factor is the transaction cost. Typically there are costs involved when selling. If you accept credit cards, the card company will take a few percent. If you use eBay, they take a fee. If you use a camera store, they take a much bigger cut.
The way to minimize the cost of the transition is to go "like for like". You're selling gear of a particular age, replace it with similar gear of the same age but from the other system.
If you are selling a body with a used value of $1,000, then buy a used body in the new system that is also valued around $1,000.
As a general rule, the less riskier the transaction, the higher the fees. Selling your gear to a camera store is the most secure and reliable method, and you will get less money. Taking a check from someone you met on the street has the lowest fee, but the highest risk that you will be defrauded.
How much risk are you willing to take?
The more risk you take, the more likely you are to make a sale. A buyer is more likely to trust you if you take a credit card instead of cash. If the camera you are selling is defective, they can complain to the credit card company. This is risky for you as they might complain, even if the camera is perfect.
If you want to minimize risk, Go to a camera store and do some trading.
My advice is that before you make any deals, go on eBay and look at recent sales for the items you want to buy and sell. Ignore the asking price, and ignore listings that don't sell. Actually look at what people are paying for the various items.
The way to minimize the cost of the transition is to go "like for like". You're selling gear of a particular age, replace it with similar gear of the same age but from the other system.
If you are selling a body with a used value of $1,000, then buy a used body in the new system that is also valued around $1,000.
As a general rule, the less riskier the transaction, the higher the fees. Selling your gear to a camera store is the most secure and reliable method, and you will get less money. Taking a check from someone you met on the street has the lowest fee, but the highest risk that you will be defrauded.
How much risk are you willing to take?
The more risk you take, the more likely you are to make a sale. A buyer is more likely to trust you if you take a credit card instead of cash. If the camera you are selling is defective, they can complain to the credit card company. This is risky for you as they might complain, even if the camera is perfect.
If you want to minimize risk, Go to a camera store and do some trading.
My advice is that before you make any deals, go on eBay and look at recent sales for the items you want to buy and sell. Ignore the asking price, and ignore listings that don't sell. Actually look at what people are paying for the various items.
Gerry Siegel
Veteran Member
If I were to sell, I would factor in my time and energy. And the risks inherent in a game most amateurs are not skilled at playing. I would sell the lot to a company like KEH or even Band H and let them have the headaches of grading and warrantying if they do the sale. At least see what is on offer. You may decide to like your gear as is. Selling used anything entails perhaps a fifty percent less than original. I could be wrong. Or sell to someone who will take on the merchandising for a commission. Not me not me.. ( I sell a used car on a military lot. Mostly great since I know the military. Once in a while someone bits you in the butt and says the alternator fails in a day and wants the money back and the State has a law about that and blah blah who needs the nuisance aspect. How much is the nuisance factor worth these days? beats me.
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DMKAlex
Veteran Member
Even after the 10% eBay fee and 3% Paypal fee, you're still way ahead. Make sure you take advantage of the discount shipping via USPS and Fedex offered by eBay.
DMKAlex
Veteran Member
I used my Nikon D800 (excellent condition) as an example. Keh offers $403. eBay's sold items indicates an average of about $1,000.
If your time is worth 60% (OK, after fees and shipping, 50%), I will do eBay any day.
If your time is worth 60% (OK, after fees and shipping, 50%), I will do eBay any day.
abe4652
Veteran Member
No, of course not. Not an investment in the usual meaning of the word.
Rather, at least an expenditure whose value should not decrease much.
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