Bit of a Rant... MY ideal camera.

[jtr27]

I agree with others who have said that this camera is of no interest to me.

Above and beyond that though, I wonder if such a camera is even physically possible. For example, would the Zr's "passive heat dissipation system" (aka fanless cooling) suffice on a 45 mp camera? That is a lot more data to contend with.

I also have doubts about Nikon's ability to deliver a camera as "small" as an A7CR. If you value "smallness" in a full frame camera above all else, perhaps Nikon is not your best bet. The Nikon Z mount was developed with the goal of enabling better lenses and higher image quality, not to minimize camera or lens size. You have to decide which is more important to you.

 

[TheWintermute]

Neither is unobtrusive enough to not attract attention because of the hump.

Oh yes, this is the Clark Kent school of design, just take away the EVF/hotshoe hump and people suddenly wouldn't be able to see the camera

lol

Yeah...nobody will notice that 6" barrel extending out of the fron of this mysterious balck square I'm holding, but that 1.5" hump on top of the box gives everything away, dammit.

That would be like Clark Kent wearing a Big Bird suit to dinner, people are going to notice. But wear a conservative black suit and glasses (ie Nikon 26/2.8, 28/2.8 or 40/2) and no one is going to pay much attention.

There is a couple reasons why RF cameras are less obtrusive.

First reason is that the photographer’s face is more visible which looks less alarming even on the subconscious level than a completely obstructed face.

(Think who attracts more attention, a guy with an eye patch or a guy in a full mask).

The second reason is that camera makers always put a huge white logo on the viewfinder hump. (But that can be fixed)

 

[MyReality]

I think the thing about the “unobtrusive camera” is that it’s a creation of a photographer’s anxieties, a projection. Everybody notices your rangefinder, you just feel better thinking they don’t. But real street photographers moved like they didn’t care and made great work in spite of their cameras, partly because of their confidence and their brazen approach that didn’t shy away from being seen. Winnogrand would always fiddle and pretend like he couldn’t operate his camera, or he missed what he was trying to get a photo of because he didn’t realize people were walking in the way. But he was taking their photo.

I think you are projecting...

Yeah... that's not me. I WILL go out to the street with a z8 and 28400, or an RF style and a flash. I am 6'4" so I stand out in a crowd, I can't hide behind a camera. If I want a shot I get it and deal with the consequences.

I want something that doesn't intrude on my life (ie able to set the camera down on the table during dinner at a restaurant) and/or that will keep the conversations short (humps on cameras start conversations around "who are you taking pictures for?", "How will the picture be used", where as with an RF camera the conversation only comes when people either really object or want a copy or want to discuss the camera.

Couple of points: You are using a Z8 for street photography to post to social media. I consider that extreme overkill. 2. I want my conversations to be long and when I used a DSLR for street that is what I got. Long conversations resulted in me getting some very nice shots with models in and out of restaurants.

My ideal camera today for street is my Z30. Looking thru an EVF makes me look too much like a photographer. I like shooting around corners with an articulated screen.

I used to shoot street with (1/2.3)" sensor cameras. My ideal street camera is the one that gets me the shot I want.

 

[jhunna]

I can't argue with what would be your ideal camera. Nor do I want to.

But I would never buy what you are calling a Z8RF. I don't need it or want it.

I have to agree with you here. Every time someone starts a thread about some hypothetical new camera, they seem to think that because they'd like it that Nikon would sell a million of them.

The OP is certainly entitled to his desires and it can be fun to speculate. But without insight into Nikon engineering (to know if it could possibly be built, how much it would have to cost, etc.) or Nikon marketing (to know how popular it might be) that's all it is -- fun speculation. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

It is just fun and games until one day they make what you really want like the A7CR. To be honest if I had never picked up the Z8 I believe I was done until they added global shutter to the A7CR series ..

The A7CR has a global shutter?

You read that wrong, I had an a7cr and was satisfied with keeping it as it did what I wanted. I was only wanting a global shutter as an improvement, but I shot with the z8, before Sony added a global shutter. And shooting with the z8, made me want speed in addition to MP.

 

[jhunna]

I agree with others who have said that this camera is of no interest to me.

That's fine but you did think about camera use and design, and that's the point of a thread like this

Above and beyond that though, I wonder if such a camera is even physically possible.

A 60MP pocketable full frame camera would have been thought impossible but yet we have the sigma F and Rx1Riii and even the a7cr.

For example, would the Zr's "passive heat dissipation system" (aka fanless cooling) suffice on a 45 mp camera? That is a lot more data to contend with.

Like the Z mount, the heat system could be overbuilt. I never discount what is possible through engineering.

I also have doubts about Nikon's ability to deliver a camera as "small" as an A7CR.

The GFX100RF is what I am considering small, the A7CR is smaller. The ZR is close in size to the ZR.

If you value "smallness" in a full frame camera above all else, perhaps Nikon is not your best bet. The Nikon Z mount was developed with the goal of enabling better lenses and higher image quality, not to minimize camera or lens size. You have to decide which is more important to you.

I want both, and don't see them as mutually exclusive. I want everything in the smallest possible body, that is going to be bigger than the a7cr, and that's ok. I want it flat and square.

 

[jhunna]

I think the thing about the “unobtrusive camera” is that it’s a creation of a photographer’s anxieties, a projection. Everybody notices your rangefinder, you just feel better thinking they don’t. But real street photographers moved like they didn’t care and made great work in spite of their cameras, partly because of their confidence and their brazen approach that didn’t shy away from being seen. Winnogrand would always fiddle and pretend like he couldn’t operate his camera, or he missed what he was trying to get a photo of because he didn’t realize people were walking in the way. But he was taking their photo.

I think you are projecting...

Yeah... that's not me. I WILL go out to the street with a z8 and 28400, or an RF style and a flash. I am 6'4" so I stand out in a crowd, I can't hide behind a camera. If I want a shot I get it and deal with the consequences.

I want something that doesn't intrude on my life (ie able to set the camera down on the table during dinner at a restaurant) and/or that will keep the conversations short (humps on cameras start conversations around "who are you taking pictures for?", "How will the picture be used", where as with an RF camera the conversation only comes when people either really object or want a copy or want to discuss the camera.

Couple of points: You are using a Z8 for street photography to post to social media.

I used the z8 to catch the most variations in composition in a flexible file while shooting on the street. Some compositions will be posted to social media.

I consider that extreme overkill.

I don't disagree but it was the camera I had.

2. I want my conversations to be long and when I used a DSLR for street that is what I got. Long conversations resulted in me getting some very nice shots with models in and out of restaurants.

Nothing wrong with that... I find the conversations are less interesting with a DSLR, as the seem based around "who do you work for"? I have long conversations with any camera, I tend to enjoy the ones when I have the RF cameras more.

My ideal camera today for street is my Z30. Looking thru an EVF makes me look too much like a photographer. I like shooting around corners with an articulated screen.

HA! Not sure if you are kidding but if you are hiding around corners that's kind of creepy. But if the z30 and that style of shooting works for you, stay at it.

I used to shoot street with (1/2.3)" sensor cameras. My ideal street camera is the one that gets me the shot I want.

Same.

 

[Rodenmg]

I can't argue with what would be your ideal camera. Nor do I want to.

But I would never buy what you are calling a Z8RF. I don't need it or want it.

I have to agree with you here. Every time someone starts a thread about some hypothetical new camera, they seem to think that because they'd like it that Nikon would sell a million of them.

The OP is certainly entitled to his desires and it can be fun to speculate. But without insight into Nikon engineering (to know if it could possibly be built, how much it would have to cost, etc.) or Nikon marketing (to know how popular it might be) that's all it is -- fun speculation. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

It is just fun and games until one day they make what you really want like the A7CR. To be honest if I had never picked up the Z8 I believe I was done until they added global shutter to the A7CR series ..

The A7CR has a global shutter?

You read that wrong, I had an a7cr and was satisfied with keeping it as it did what I wanted. I was only wanting a global shutter as an improvement, but I shot with the z8, before Sony added a global shutter. And shooting with the z8, made me want speed in addition to MP.

Again you said “Sony added a global shutter”?

Anyway, I’m curious what benefit you see to the stacked sensor in the Z8 if you don’t shoot at high frame rates. I believe you’ve stated that a couple of times.

 

[jhunna]

I can't argue with what would be your ideal camera. Nor do I want to.

But I would never buy what you are calling a Z8RF. I don't need it or want it.

I have to agree with you here. Every time someone starts a thread about some hypothetical new camera, they seem to think that because they'd like it that Nikon would sell a million of them.

The OP is certainly entitled to his desires and it can be fun to speculate. But without insight into Nikon engineering (to know if it could possibly be built, how much it would have to cost, etc.) or Nikon marketing (to know how popular it might be) that's all it is -- fun speculation. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

It is just fun and games until one day they make what you really want like the A7CR. To be honest if I had never picked up the Z8 I believe I was done until they added global shutter to the A7CR series ..

The A7CR has a global shutter?

You read that wrong, I had an a7cr and was satisfied with keeping it as it did what I wanted. I was only wanting a global shutter as an improvement, but I shot with the z8, before Sony added a global shutter. And shooting with the z8, made me want speed in addition to MP.

Again you said “Sony added a global shutter”?

You are trying to change my statement a more accurate quote is "before Sony added a global shutter"

Anyway, I’m curious what benefit you see to the stacked sensor in the Z8 if you don’t shoot at high frame rates. I believe you’ve stated that a couple of times.

With stacked shutters you have no mechanical shutter to break, higher frame rates, less banding, decent shutter sync speed and less rolling shutter. All of that improves, a step again, with a global shutter. I shoot photo and video, if you are only shooting one or the other you won't see all the benefits.

 

[GeoffRG]

Ok, so last night I went out to capture the Harvest moon, I have a Sony A7CR and A6700, Fuji GFX100RF and a Nikon Z8. I love all of these cameras for various reasons, and even though it is a mishmash of camera gear, they all have some aspects related to my ideal camera. My ideal camera is as follows:

1. Hybrid - I take lots of pictures and videos and I use the most advanced codecs and file formats. I have lots of disk space and compute power and I am not afraid to use it. (A7CR/A6700/Z8)
2. RF Style - Makes for a more square camera and since I am a right eye shooter keeps my nose out of the way. Also they are generally less conspicuous in social settings. (A7CR/A6700/GFX100RF)
3. Size - I prefer smaller cameras, but large enough to handle well. (A7CR/A6700 with grips and GFX100RF)
4. Simple Workflows - This is actually complicated because I have two workflows:
   1. On the go - I want to take pictures and video and immediately share them via my phone to google photos/youtube. (Sony is unbeatable for this)
   2. Highest quality\flexibity - Using the least amount of time. That means capturing good files the z8 and GFX100RF are great at this as I almost never need to do more than adjust exposure/crop/wb if I got them wrong in camera. 100MP and 8k mean I can do create several compositions with one capture.
5. Speed - z8 wins here. That stacked sensor must be used to be appreciated. I don't need 20 (or 120fps) but it is there if I do.
6. Flash - I love flash, it makes taking pictures so much easier, and people rarely if ever complain about it. So I use it with all my setups. All of the cameras handle flash well.

OK, that's a sensible way to put it.

1. Hybrid - why not every camera coming out these days appears to be hybrid
2. RF Style - OK, but you've just disenfranchised left eye dominant photographers.
3. Size - Here we must differ but I'm sure there are many who would appreciate a smaller camera so, again, why not
4. Simple workflows - This one is very personal, but as long as any connectivity can be disabled if not required, go for it.
5. Speed - The Nikon flagships have always been about speed
6. Flash - This can be problematic, the 24-70 f/2.8 gets in the way of built-in flash, as do other lenses. You've also complicated matters by removing the viewfinder "hump" that alleviated part of the problem by raising the flash.

With all of that out of the way, what would be the ideal camera? Give me the ZR body (and sound configuration with 32bit float and that 4" screen) with an RF styled EVF, and put the z8 sensor and functions inside that body. I would call it:

Nikon Z8RF

Probably looking at a $4500 camera, BUT I think it would be the hottest thing in the market place. So much so I would get two, so that when I am shooting events, I can go from 1430/4 on one camera up to an 85mm on the other. Same with things like sports, 28400 on one camera and 24120/4 to catch photos as the action gets closer. The A7CR comes the closest, but the sensor is just a bit too slow for video and I can't stand rolling shutter.

I know my use case is VERY specific but a camera like that could be made to work for all sorts of shooters from wildlife, sports, portraits to events, family gatherings, etc...
If we can let's just have some fun with this one, I know this is probably not happening, however, post your ideal set up or adjustments to this one.

I can agree with 32bit float audio, Nikon should have created a universal interface with its hot shoe allowing the use of professional audio interfaces.

Your lens choice might not be suitable for everyone. A "hot" camera needs to be able to handle 70-200 f/2.8 and longer zooms. Make the body too small and those become difficult to handle.

As others have said, I'd not buy one.

 

[jhunna]

Ok, so last night I went out to capture the Harvest moon, I have a Sony A7CR and A6700, Fuji GFX100RF and a Nikon Z8. I love all of these cameras for various reasons, and even though it is a mishmash of camera gear, they all have some aspects related to my ideal camera. My ideal camera is as follows:

1. Hybrid - I take lots of pictures and videos and I use the most advanced codecs and file formats. I have lots of disk space and compute power and I am not afraid to use it. (A7CR/A6700/Z8)
2. RF Style - Makes for a more square camera and since I am a right eye shooter keeps my nose out of the way. Also they are generally less conspicuous in social settings. (A7CR/A6700/GFX100RF)
3. Size - I prefer smaller cameras, but large enough to handle well. (A7CR/A6700 with grips and GFX100RF)
4. Simple Workflows - This is actually complicated because I have two workflows:
   1. On the go - I want to take pictures and video and immediately share them via my phone to google photos/youtube. (Sony is unbeatable for this)
   2. Highest quality\flexibity - Using the least amount of time. That means capturing good files the z8 and GFX100RF are great at this as I almost never need to do more than adjust exposure/crop/wb if I got them wrong in camera. 100MP and 8k mean I can do create several compositions with one capture.
5. Speed - z8 wins here. That stacked sensor must be used to be appreciated. I don't need 20 (or 120fps) but it is there if I do.
6. Flash - I love flash, it makes taking pictures so much easier, and people rarely if ever complain about it. So I use it with all my setups. All of the cameras handle flash well.

OK, that's a sensible way to put it.

1. Hybrid - why not every camera coming out these days appears to be hybrid
2. RF Style - OK, but you've just disenfranchised left eye dominant photographers.

Agreed. Not intentional, but for a long time, this was the only way to shoot in a hand held camera. That said the 4" screen should help.

1. Size - Here we must differ but I'm sure there are many who would appreciate a smaller camera so, again, why not
2. Simple workflows - This one is very personal, but as long as any connectivity can be disabled if not required, go for it.
3. Speed - The Nikon flagships have always been about speed

I am new to Nikon, so this was a revelation to me. It is hard to go back to a slower process.

1. Flash - This can be problematic, the 24-70 f/2.8 gets in the way of built-in flash, as do other lenses. You've also complicated matters by removing the viewfinder "hump" that alleviated part of the problem by raising the flash.

While I didn't intend built in flash, I do like the idea of a pop up flash. I was mainly looking at compatitibility with with flash sync speeds something like 1/400 would be ideal. My standard flash is quickly becoming the Godox V480 so if that works with the sensor, I would be coverd.

With all of that out of the way, what would be the ideal camera? Give me the ZR body (and sound configuration with 32bit float and that 4" screen) with an RF styled EVF, and put the z8 sensor and functions inside that body. I would call it:

Nikon Z8RF

Probably looking at a $4500 camera, BUT I think it would be the hottest thing in the market place. So much so I would get two, so that when I am shooting events, I can go from 1430/4 on one camera up to an 85mm on the other. Same with things like sports, 28400 on one camera and 24120/4 to catch photos as the action gets closer. The A7CR comes the closest, but the sensor is just a bit too slow for video and I can't stand rolling shutter.

I know my use case is VERY specific but a camera like that could be made to work for all sorts of shooters from wildlife, sports, portraits to events, family gatherings, etc...
If we can let's just have some fun with this one, I know this is probably not happening, however, post your ideal set up or adjustments to this one.

I can agree with 32bit float audio, Nikon should have created a universal interface with its hot shoe allowing the use of professional audio interfaces.

Agreed. I have this on the A7cr and it is incredibly useful.

Your lens choice might not be suitable for everyone. A "hot" camera needs to be able to handle 70-200 f/2.8 and longer zooms. Make the body too small and those become difficult to handle.

I have always considered the 70200/2.8 type glass as too "heavy" or "large" for my use. I prefer more zoom and light weight.

As others have said, I'd not buy one.

What would you buy? Is the z8 good enough?

 

[Rene Gr]

Everybody can rant over anything here. I read it and ask myself: Why? Why does he/she want that?

But, okay, here is mine: A Z3 with no EVF, but a large bright screen. A 40 MP full frame sensor, a bit of a grip and Nikon ergonomics otherwise. And the most recent processor and AF, of course. A very good IBIS is also on my list.

 

[GeoffRG]

Ok, so last night I went out to capture the Harvest moon, I have a Sony A7CR and A6700, Fuji GFX100RF and a Nikon Z8. I love all of these cameras for various reasons, and even though it is a mishmash of camera gear, they all have some aspects related to my ideal camera. My ideal camera is as follows:

1. Hybrid - I take lots of pictures and videos and I use the most advanced codecs and file formats. I have lots of disk space and compute power and I am not afraid to use it. (A7CR/A6700/Z8)
2. RF Style - Makes for a more square camera and since I am a right eye shooter keeps my nose out of the way. Also they are generally less conspicuous in social settings. (A7CR/A6700/GFX100RF)
3. Size - I prefer smaller cameras, but large enough to handle well. (A7CR/A6700 with grips and GFX100RF)
4. Simple Workflows - This is actually complicated because I have two workflows:
   1. On the go - I want to take pictures and video and immediately share them via my phone to google photos/youtube. (Sony is unbeatable for this)
   2. Highest quality\flexibity - Using the least amount of time. That means capturing good files the z8 and GFX100RF are great at this as I almost never need to do more than adjust exposure/crop/wb if I got them wrong in camera. 100MP and 8k mean I can do create several compositions with one capture.
5. Speed - z8 wins here. That stacked sensor must be used to be appreciated. I don't need 20 (or 120fps) but it is there if I do.
6. Flash - I love flash, it makes taking pictures so much easier, and people rarely if ever complain about it. So I use it with all my setups. All of the cameras handle flash well.

OK, that's a sensible way to put it.

1. Hybrid - why not every camera coming out these days appears to be hybrid
2. RF Style - OK, but you've just disenfranchised left eye dominant photographers.

Agreed. Not intentional, but for a long time, this was the only way to shoot in a hand held camera. That said the 4" screen should help.

1. Size - Here we must differ but I'm sure there are many who would appreciate a smaller camera so, again, why not
2. Simple workflows - This one is very personal, but as long as any connectivity can be disabled if not required, go for it.
3. Speed - The Nikon flagships have always been about speed

I am new to Nikon, so this was a revelation to me. It is hard to go back to a slower process.

1. Flash - This can be problematic, the 24-70 f/2.8 gets in the way of built-in flash, as do other lenses. You've also complicated matters by removing the viewfinder "hump" that alleviated part of the problem by raising the flash.

While I didn't intend built in flash, I do like the idea of a pop up flash. I was mainly looking at compatitibility with with flash sync speeds something like 1/400 would be ideal. My standard flash is quickly becoming the Godox V480 so if that works with the sensor, I would be coverd.

With all of that out of the way, what would be the ideal camera? Give me the ZR body (and sound configuration with 32bit float and that 4" screen) with an RF styled EVF, and put the z8 sensor and functions inside that body. I would call it:

Nikon Z8RF

Probably looking at a $4500 camera, BUT I think it would be the hottest thing in the market place. So much so I would get two, so that when I am shooting events, I can go from 1430/4 on one camera up to an 85mm on the other. Same with things like sports, 28400 on one camera and 24120/4 to catch photos as the action gets closer. The A7CR comes the closest, but the sensor is just a bit too slow for video and I can't stand rolling shutter.

I know my use case is VERY specific but a camera like that could be made to work for all sorts of shooters from wildlife, sports, portraits to events, family gatherings, etc...
If we can let's just have some fun with this one, I know this is probably not happening, however, post your ideal set up or adjustments to this one.

I can agree with 32bit float audio, Nikon should have created a universal interface with its hot shoe allowing the use of professional audio interfaces.

Agreed. I have this on the A7cr and it is incredibly useful.

Your lens choice might not be suitable for everyone. A "hot" camera needs to be able to handle 70-200 f/2.8 and longer zooms. Make the body too small and those become difficult to handle.

I have always considered the 70200/2.8 type glass as too "heavy" or "large" for my use. I prefer more zoom and light weight.

As others have said, I'd not buy one.

What would you buy? Is the z8 good enough?

I use D5s, more resolution would be nice but otherwise it's pretty ideal for me. SLR, no possibility of sharing from a location, Video deactivated, no built-in flash, large enough not to have fingers hanging off the bottom and very suitable for use with large lenses. Almost the total opposite of your ideal

No the Z8 wouldn't be enough, I want a vertical grip so it would have to be a Z9 or two. I'd configure it for stills only with Wi-Fi off and viewfinder only. Ideally I'd have the + and - , menu and playback buttons relocated to the left of the screen.

As you can see your ideal camera and mine are almost opposites, which is perfectly normal. It's also a problem for manufacturers because they need to produce cameras that both of us would like to buy. Where we might agree is that I like about 500g shaved off the weight.

 

[jhunna]

Everybody can rant over anything here. I read it and ask myself: Why? Why does he/she want that?

But, okay, here is mine: A Z3 with no EVF, but a large bright screen. A 40 MP full frame sensor, a bit of a grip and Nikon ergonomics otherwise. And the most recent processor and AF, of course. A very good IBIS is also on my list.

Thanks this is the sort of thing I was hoping to generate. I actually like the idea of a Z3!

I forgot to include IBIS, but just assumed it is automatically there, good addition.

 

[jhunna]

[SNIP]

What would you buy? Is the z8 good enough?

I use D5s, more resolution would be nice but otherwise it's pretty ideal for me. SLR, no possibility of sharing from a location, Video deactivated, no built-in flash, large enough not to have fingers hanging off the bottom and very suitable for use with large lenses. Almost the total opposite of your ideal

No the Z8 wouldn't be enough, I want a vertical grip so it would have to be a Z9 or two. I'd configure it for stills only with Wi-Fi off and viewfinder only. Ideally I'd have the + and - , menu and playback buttons relocated to the left of the screen.

I have large hands so this would be great to have. The more I think about how I use my z8 the z9 would have been a better option, but I thought it was too "professional".

As you can see your ideal camera and mine are almost opposites, which is perfectly normal. It's also a problem for manufacturers because they need to produce cameras that both of us would like to buy. Where we might agree is that I like about 500g shaved off the weight.

I post these threads to get alternative ideas, not just to find people who agree (although that is cool). I would rather spend time discussing why you like your setup versus why my setup "would never work" (That isn't directed at you but just to how these threads usually go).