Biggest Problem with NEX cameras

[blue_skies]

Reading some of the remarks - no, I don't think that you are trolling, you do raise some good and serious issues.

Sony cameras do have poor AWB selection indoors, probably poorer than some of the other brands, but generally, none seem to be 'perfect' for indoors.

But you need neither a gray card nor a custom white balance settings.

Gray card are an aid when you shoot RAW - it is sometimes hard to figure out what the white balance needs to be in post, and a gray card is just a quick setup to get you there. If you don't shoot RAW, grey cards can be used in JPG as well.

Most PP tools (I am using DxO and LR3) have an auto-white-balance feature that works remarkably well. It is one way to 'correct', but it does often make indoor pics look too cool. Then you have to add back in some warmth.

Custom white balances? I never needed them - Tungsten, Incandescent, Neon lighting are sufficient to cover most indoor conditions. And Auto works fine if the light levels are ABOVE a certain level.

As to pictures on this forum - I think a lot of pictures are OOC and not processed in post. It is actually preferred - we can see what the camera does rather than someone's workflow - but it does highlight the artifacts as well.

I think that anyone with the 'yellow' pictures will eventually figure out how to get them to look more realistic. Generally, I think that Sony is choosing correctly in keeping the images on the warm side, rather than on the cool side, they are more pleasing.

But I also think that images are taken with less light than 'typical' indoor lighting represents - this causes a color shift to yellow all by itself. If too dark, I wonder if AWB can actually compensate.

Another thing I recommend users is to use the bounce flash to 'fill in' the background - it gives quite pleasing effects - but you have to shoot with flash. AWB with flash is fine - but you have to dial back the flash intensity under most indoors (white ceiling) conditions to get the proper balance of color and warmth.

STILL - I think that you raise a valid point and there is no reason why Sony cameras perform so poorly - lowlight indoors is a very common condition for all of us.

I don't complain too much about problems with the NEX cameras because overall I think they're pretty good but Sony needs to do something about the indoor white balance issue.

The NEX cameras are the wost I've seen and pictures posted on this forum prove the point.

It's terrible to have to set a custom white balance (and hope for the best) every time you take a picture with incandescent lighting.

Shooting raw is only a band-aid and not the answer, because most modern day cameras get the white balance very close.

What's really amazing is that many people, posting to this forum, seem to be proud of their yellow pictures.

--
Cheers,
Henry

 

[gfrensen]

First: I looked at your gallery here, and liked your work. You show that you know what you are talking about. This is so much better then some trolls on this forum show.

Then the white balance issue:

I think it would be very nice if Sony fount a way to overcome the WB indoors, out doors I like the colors very well. Indoors it is not as nice as it could be.

Fortunately there are several option to solve this problem (as I don't think Sony will solve it with a FW update to be honnest).
1. You can set the WB to a preset (incadecent, TL etc.)
2. You can use custom WB, it is eaasy to do and works great.
3. you cn work with RAW to get the best of the best.

4. you can use flash, I find the flash to render colors good, but I know the downsites of flash

5. you can PP the JPEGs for these pictures, not as good as doing RAW but it will do in many ways.

Then a quick remark to people who call you a troll, well for sttating your point of view you are not a troll. I would like to see what you can do with a Nex camera (I think you can do great things with it, looking at what you did with your Canon in the gallery).

Unfortunatly there are trols who are only here to tell everyone here that their camera of choice is much better....

I hope you will enoy your Nex camera for its strong points, and accept the weak points, as every camera has some weak points....

 

[Nell27]

Reading some of the remarks - no, I don't think that you are trolling, you do raise some good and serious issues.

Sony cameras do have poor AWB selection indoors, probably poorer than some of the other brands, but generally, none seem to be 'perfect' for indoors.

But you need neither a gray card nor a custom white balance settings.

Gray card are an aid when you shoot RAW - it is sometimes hard to figure out what the white balance needs to be in post, and a gray card is just a quick setup to get you there. If you don't shoot RAW, grey cards can be used in JPG as well.

Most PP tools (I am using DxO and LR3) have an auto-white-balance feature that works remarkably well. It is one way to 'correct', but it does often make indoor pics look too cool. Then you have to add back in some warmth.

Custom white balances? I never needed them - Tungsten, Incandescent, Neon lighting are sufficient to cover most indoor conditions. And Auto works fine if the light levels are ABOVE a certain level.

As to pictures on this forum - I think a lot of pictures are OOC and not processed in post. It is actually preferred - we can see what the camera does rather than someone's workflow - but it does highlight the artifacts as well.

I think that anyone with the 'yellow' pictures will eventually figure out how to get them to look more realistic. Generally, I think that Sony is choosing correctly in keeping the images on the warm side, rather than on the cool side, they are more pleasing.

But I also think that images are taken with less light than 'typical' indoor lighting represents - this causes a color shift to yellow all by itself. If too dark, I wonder if AWB can actually compensate.

Another thing I recommend users is to use the bounce flash to 'fill in' the background - it gives quite pleasing effects - but you have to shoot with flash. AWB with flash is fine - but you have to dial back the flash intensity under most indoors (white ceiling) conditions to get the proper balance of color and warmth.

STILL - I think that you raise a valid point and there is no reason why Sony cameras perform so poorly - lowlight indoors is a very common condition for all of us.

Thank you. I agree with everything you've said.

 

[Nell27]

First: I looked at your gallery here, and liked your work. You show that you know what you are talking about. This is so much better then some trolls on this forum show.

Then the white balance issue:

I think it would be very nice if Sony fount a way to overcome the WB indoors, out doors I like the colors very well. Indoors it is not as nice as it could be.

Fortunately there are several option to solve this problem (as I don't think Sony will solve it with a FW update to be honnest).
1. You can set the WB to a preset (incadecent, TL etc.)
2. You can use custom WB, it is eaasy to do and works great.
3. you cn work with RAW to get the best of the best.

4. you can use flash, I find the flash to render colors good, but I know the downsites of flash

5. you can PP the JPEGs for these pictures, not as good as doing RAW but it will do in many ways.

Then a quick remark to people who call you a troll, well for sttating your point of view you are not a troll. I would like to see what you can do with a Nex camera (I think you can do great things with it, looking at what you did with your Canon in the gallery).

Unfortunatly there are trols who are only here to tell everyone here that their camera of choice is much better....

I hope you will enoy your Nex camera for its strong points, and accept the weak points, as every camera has some weak points....

Thanks for the comments about my gallery.

I didn't mean for this to be some kind of horrible post about NEX cameras and don't think I've ever tried to be a troll. I probably wouldn't be very good at it because I love photography and it's treated me pretty good over the years. I don't usually say many negative things about a camera.

I mainly use the 5n for snapshots and don't really have pictures that are worth posting.

My only real complaint about the camera is the unreliable white balance but it's obvious that many people disagree with me.

 

[gfrensen]

Thanks for the comments about my gallery.

Youw welcome!

I didn't mean for this to be some kind of horrible post about NEX cameras and don't think I've ever tried to be a troll.

I do believe you, but, as there are some real trolls around here some here are a little sensetive to people with complaints.

I probably wouldn't be very good at it because I love photography and it's treated me pretty good over the years. I don't usually say many negative things about a camera.

As I stated in myu post I do think that every camera has it's strong points, Auto WB is not the strong point of Sony, not indoors that is.

I mainly use the 5n for snapshots and don't really have pictures that are worth posting.

Don't forget that what are snapshots to the one are works of art to the other. Looking at your gallery I would love to see what you can do with the 5n...

My only real complaint about the camera is the unreliable white balance but it's obvious that many people disagree with me.

I don't disagree with you, but I think we can work around this weak point, as it is in Sony cameras for a long time, I still think these cameras are great in so many other wys that I forget about this problem...

 

[LaFonte]

I for one agree with you on WB. But it isn't that big issue for most people.

I additionally don't necessary love the NEX colors in general, Sony used to be much more on vivid side previously but they had been criticized for "Sony" colors and they switched to more conservative approach that are in my opinion "bottom heavy".

And as user of many sony cameras this fiddling with WB and image "character" is pretty common for Sony, sometimes to large extremes. One model can be all muddy and conservative and the next model would be cheerful and happy poster colors. Both would be equally criticized, sometimes even by the same people. (I personally like cheerful colors over conservative)

It may not be apparent for users of only one model though. So most people will simply get used to it and then see everything else as wrong colors.

First: I looked at your gallery here, and liked your work. You show that you know what you are talking about. This is so much better then some trolls on this forum show.

Then the white balance issue:

I think it would be very nice if Sony fount a way to overcome the WB indoors, out doors I like the colors very well. Indoors it is not as nice as it could be.

Fortunately there are several option to solve this problem (as I don't think Sony will solve it with a FW update to be honnest).
1. You can set the WB to a preset (incadecent, TL etc.)
2. You can use custom WB, it is eaasy to do and works great.
3. you cn work with RAW to get the best of the best.

4. you can use flash, I find the flash to render colors good, but I know the downsites of flash

5. you can PP the JPEGs for these pictures, not as good as doing RAW but it will do in many ways.

Then a quick remark to people who call you a troll, well for sttating your point of view you are not a troll. I would like to see what you can do with a Nex camera (I think you can do great things with it, looking at what you did with your Canon in the gallery).

Unfortunatly there are trols who are only here to tell everyone here that their camera of choice is much better....

I hope you will enoy your Nex camera for its strong points, and accept the weak points, as every camera has some weak points....

Thanks for the comments about my gallery.

I didn't mean for this to be some kind of horrible post about NEX cameras and don't think I've ever tried to be a troll. I probably wouldn't be very good at it because I love photography and it's treated me pretty good over the years. I don't usually say many negative things about a camera.

I mainly use the 5n for snapshots and don't really have pictures that are worth posting.

My only real complaint about the camera is the unreliable white balance but it's obvious that many people disagree with me.

 

[zapatista]

Can you help Ken Rockwell? Ken Rockwell needs our help to feed his family. Ken Rockwell is a wonderful human being with very large lenses to compensate for his lack of girth. Ken Rockwell needs our help to feed his family. I don't want Ken Rockwell's family to starve.

 

[weavster]

If the camera captures what my eyes see ( an emphasis on the yellow end of the spectrum when using enery saving light bulbs for instance), then the camera is acting as an accurate recording device and not trying to second guess what it thinks I want to see.

Afterall, if I want white to be recorded as pure white, regardless of how it actually appears in the scene, then all that is needed is a manual WB - easy!
What's all the fuss about?

 

[DuncanDovovan]

Isn't WB pure personal? If I look for a scientific representation of colors, then I'm not creating art or transfer feelings with images.

Should a white dress in sunset be white, grey or orange?

Do you want the light of a lamp to be the color of the lamp or white?

If people buy 4000K light bulbs, should your camera promote it to 6500K?

I think everything AWB can do is do it wrong, because we all want to have something else.

 

[hellocrowley]

I'm quite familiar with the dpreview sentiments toward Kenrockwell. I am not a fan of his either. However he had some good points in this article and you can't dismiss them until you read it.

You know, I was supporting your topic at the beginning but now I think you're just trolling.

I apologize if I've offended you.

There's nothing wrong with Ken Rockwell's site provided you take it for what it's intended to be. Entertainment.

What Ken Rockwell says today will eventually be contradicted by Ken Rockwell himself.

If you read his home page you'll understand that Ken doesn't want people to believe everything he says.

I have nothing against him or his site but would still caution people about quoting him.

You don't really have to agree with everything he says. I only look at the sample shots in his Fuji vs Nikon comparison and make my own conclusion: Fuji is great for portraits, Nikon is better at landscape.

What I meant to say is: I do not like the way Sony handles indoors WB, but maybe it was intended that way (to accurately recreates the scene).

In any case, if Nex had Fuji colors I wouldn't have a problem deciding between Nex7 & XPro1.

 

[weavster]

Isn't WB pure personal? If I look for a scientific representation of colors, then I'm not creating art or transfer feelings with images.

Should a white dress in sunset be white, grey or orange?

exactly, "oh the dress isn't pure white.... damn the WB on Sony"

Do you want the light of a lamp to be the color of the lamp or white?

If people buy 4000K light bulbs, should your camera promote it to 6500K?

I think everything AWB can do is do it wrong, because we all want to have something else.

perfectly put!

 

[LTZ470]

Hate it myself, the Nex-7 seems to do better than the 5N to my eyes...
5N poor AWB







Olympus EP3 same room same light:



--
FlickR Photostream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/

 

[pabloman]

Yep, that's what I'm talkin' about...

I just don't get it, why all those SONY fanboys keep defending SONY.

The WB and also the COLORS are crap. No discussion.

And don't talk about PP and every manufacturer takes an other approach to colors blaa blaa...

WTF is good or NATURAL about this yellow and green cast?

 

[pabloman]

Stop this lousy alibi talk for SONY, please.

Bad colors and bad WB are objective. Look at the photos bellow!

 

[JPG]

Are you talking about with factory lenses or adapted lenses?

Adapted lenses won't have as good of white balance straight from the camera usually.

Eric
--
I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)

I think he was talking about the WB and not about adapters and lenses. I can't see where there is any connection. When I had my NEX-5 I was using my Leica R lenses on it with an adapter with inside lighting photographing art work for reporduction. Exact WB was needed and it was done with no fuss or problem. I was using automatic WB.

 

[GaryW]

Stop this lousy alibi talk for SONY, please.

Bad colors and bad WB are objective. Look at the photos bellow!

If you don't like the WB, you can at least compensate with some effort. Colors, on the other hand, are better with Sony, many times. They tend to use a stronger color filter, it is said. Use DxO to compare brands, and see reviews that measure color accuracy. I like the Sony color.

Now, looking at the previous photos, I don't like any of them. While the Nex ones are too orange, having a perfect WB looks cold and uninviting. The lighting really is warm, not blue, so the Oly is not more natural. You are free to have a subjective preference.

--
Gary W.

 

[zackiedawg]

If while sitting in that room at the time the photo was taken, the light had a yellow cast and white objects and things had a yellow look to them, then that's the exact way I want to capture the scene. PERIOD. Technically correct is not at all what I want. I am sitting right now typing on my netbook in my living room with an incandescent bulb shining through a colored glass shade, and my hands look yellow. So does my white t-shirt. If a camera captured a photo of me right here in this room, and my shirt looked white and my skin had a proper beige/pinkish tone, I would consider that photo to be poor/undesirable, because it is not capturing the scene that my eye saw. The yellow cast IS THERE, so I want to capture it.

If in the photos above the older lady appeared to be slightly cast in yellow due to the lighting in the room, then I'd want her captured that way and would consider that Olympus shot to be incorrect. If the older lady appeared a cooler white to the naked eye in that room and light at the time, then I'd consider the Sony shot to be incorrect.

What I can't stand is when white balance is over-corrected, and all the reality of the light is lost. Seeing a beach at sunset where the sand looks sterile white and the sky neutral grey, rather than the glowing warm yellows and oranges dominating the scene? No thanks. When I'm in a flourescently lit room, things look cooler and blueish. When I'm around incandescent, it looks yellowish. When out on the street at night under sodium vapor lighting, things look orange. Under moonlight, they look heavy cold blue. That's what I seek to capture.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

 

[DezM]

I agree. I hope and anticipate Sony addressing the auto white balance issue indoors, as well as the AF issue in low light.

For now, changing the white balance preset to Tungsten or Fluorescent does the trick and shoot Raw+Jpeg in case one isn't satisfied with the resulting Jpeg.
--
Dez

http://dezsantana.com

 

[DuncanDovovan]

Stop this lousy alibi talk for SONY, please.

Bad colors and bad WB are objective. Look at the photos bellow!

If you don't like the WB, you can at least compensate with some effort. Colors, on the other hand, are better with Sony, many times. They tend to use a stronger color filter, it is said. Use DxO to compare brands, and see reviews that measure color accuracy. I like the Sony color.

Now, looking at the previous photos, I don't like any of them. While the Nex ones are too orange, having a perfect WB looks cold and uninviting. The lighting really is warm, not blue, so the Oly is not more natural. You are free to have a subjective preference.

--
Gary W.

Here are the aggressive intolerant tones I again that we all so love. =;-)

Gary is right I think.

The Sony pics look too yellow/orange, but I really would not like to see my NEX do what the Oly did as well. That is too blueish in my view. Like Gary said: I don't like all of them. I'd like to see what the Oly and the Sony do with a sunset. Or mixed with light.

But isn't that the same for auto-focus and exposure? There are a zillion of pics you can take where autofocus or the chosen exposure does not work. If you want the very best results, go manual.

There are nice lens caps that you can use instead of your normal lens cap that allow you to quickly create a manual WB. Google Mennon.

Wanting a great WB is a good reason to shoot in RAW.

To the OP: Did you try to use the preset for tungsten light? Is the result better?

 

[costinius]

I don't complain too much about problems with the NEX cameras because overall I think they're pretty good but Sony needs to do something about the indoor white balance issue.

The NEX cameras are the wost I've seen and pictures posted on this forum prove the point.

It's terrible to have to set a custom white balance (and hope for the best) every time you take a picture with incandescent lighting.

Shooting raw is only a band-aid and not the answer, because most modern day cameras get the white balance very close.

What's really amazing is that many people, posting to this forum, seem to be proud of their yellow pictures.

What I figured is incandescent setting works best for me (although my lamps are tungsten). Here are some examples:

AWB (with a yellow cast):





Incandescent (looks very natural):