Awaiting the GX7, Recalling the L1

Joel Halbert

Leading Member
Messages
721
Solutions
4
Reaction score
487
Location
Tucson, AZ, US
With the imminent announcement of the Lumix GX-7, there has been an upsurge in posts and comments, here and on the 43rumors site, about the Lumix DMC-L1. The L1 was one of those little-sold, imperfect but very likeable products that are now fondly remembered by past owners. There have also been occasional bursts of nostalgia about the semi-compact non-interchageable-lens EVF predecessor, Lumix LC-1 / Leica Digilux 2.

The L-1 was a premium-priced, very well-constructed camera that was Panasonic’s entry into interchangeable lens systems, and it borrowed much from Olympus EXXX camera internals. The only real downside (other than price) was that the reflex OVF image was relatively small, and of course the camera was large by current M43 or NEX standards. I really enjoyed the little Z-folding pop-up flash, used first on the LC-1, that could be snapped into tilt-bounce position. Of course, one of the L-1's best features was the superb kit zoom lens, but that and the expensive body construction contributed to the high price.

I think that Panasonic's reaction to the L1 was a little schizophrenic. On one hand, I think they knew perfectly well that the camera was just their toe in the water for interchangeable-lens cameras and that they were creating a premium and niche "statement of capability" product. Published interviews and news stories at the time back this up; they knew that the price and the elegant but non-mainstream body design would limit its unit sales in the 2006/7 market. But on the other hand, it seems that the limited sales numbers then led some managers to prohibit future "experimentation" with the corner-VF, rectangular-style design language of the L-1 and the LC-1. The second Lumix 4/3 camera, the L-10, was DSLR-styled, and this continued with the introduction of the world's first mirrorless camera in the mini-DSLR-styled G1. Panasonic clearly stated that the G1 body style was chosen to minimize the non-mainstream aspects of Micro 4/3 and to make customers more comfortable by using a DSLR-like shape.

So even though Panasonic was an early advocate and provider of the corner-VF body style, they have been notably reluctant to introduce any more cameras like that. This is despite pleas from some users and despite the good, though limited, reception of NEX7 / NEX-6 / Fuji X corner-VF cameras. Finally in 2013, we see the little LF1 compact and the pending GX7. Interesting to note that Olympus has also - so far - stayed away from that body style, even though the namesake of the "soulful" PEN cameras did have a corner viewfinder.

So what will happen now? Well, we can expect that the GX7, like the Fuji X and Sony NEX 6/7, will have somewhat limited sales numbers simply based on the price bracket. This is a marketing fact of life that is only rarely broken. If Panasonic makes a mistake, like equipping the GX7 with a less-than-premium sensor, or having a very poor image in the signature viewfinder feature, then the sales will be further crippled - and the harsh partisan factions on DPR and elsewhere won't be likely to cut them any slack. Perhaps in that case, the twice-burned, apparently anti-VF faction within Panasonic will again succeed in shutting off further development - missing the point that you have to get the whole package right... OR you have to have a real bargain price to boost the sales numbers.

Thus, like many others I am hoping for the GX7 to be a real success and a compelling package. We all know it won't be cheap, and I've said that price is secondary as long as the camera is a pleasure to carry and use. However, it should be priced as aggressively as Panasonic can manage, and I hope they can break the delayed-availability cycle that plagues almost all Lumix camera introductions.
 
The LC1, E330 were mile stones in the 4/3 and dslr development, were would M4/3 be now without them :)
 
Last edited:
Well said. The (sort of) unsung hero in the L1 package is the 14-50mm kit lens. I didn't realize how sharp it was until I used the Panny 14-150mm zoom lens, and I didn't realize how sharp the 14-150mm lens was until I started using the kit lens from another DSLR. And the entire journey all started from that beautiful fixed LC1 lens. :-)
 
Completely agreed. If the GX7 succeeds (and I REALLY hope it does) it will have a lot to do with the lessons learned from the L1.

If it ticks the boxes I've been waiting to be ticked, Panasonic can TAKE MY MONEY! :D
 
Panasonic made some absolutely wonderful 4/3 DSLR's. I was fortunate (but not now) in having had the L1 for a period of two years. Then, because I went through a period of not shooting much, I parted with mine. As is always the cases (well, most of the time, that is), once I sold it, I was very very regretful that I did. The feel of that camera - ohhhh, those images (even though it was only a 7.5 MP camera) were just divine. Of course, you can still find one now and then via ebay or on Amazon (all used). That camera can still give many current day models at run for their money - that's for sure. And coupled with one of the Leica 4/3 lenses (OIS enabled), you had the makings for some fantastic image-making experiences.

I am hoping that somehow the pending GX7 can replicate many of the wonderful aspects about the L1 that many of us (who owned one) had of that remarkable camera.

In tribute to the ole' L1, here are some photos taken with it at the Old Salem Historical site in Winston Salem, NC, some 5 years ago.

Frame_Gunsmith3.jpg


Frame_LivingHistoryfigure10.jpg


Frame_LivingHistoryfigure1.jpg


Frame_LivingHistoryfigure17.jpg


Frame_LivingHistoryfigure3.jpg


Frame_LivingHistoryfigure4.jpg


Frame_OldSalemscene1.jpg


Frame_LivingHistoryfigure8.jpg


Frame_OldSalemscene18.jpg


Frame_OldSalemscene23.jpg


Frame_Organ1.jpg


Frame_SalemTavern2.jpg




--
Have a great one....
Bernd (Ben) W. Herrmann
North Carolina, USA
link
 
very well thought out post and very pleasant and educative to read despite the many speculations

I too really hope the GX-7 succeeds. It might be the harbinger of all Rangefinder styled m43 cameras that it seems so many of us ask for yet never get.

I myself will be going for a PEN with a corner EVF (if it ever exists one day) because thus far I only shoot JPEG and I could never get myself to like shooting RAW.
 
Alumna Gorp wrote:

The LC1, E330 were mile stones in the 4/3 and dslr development, were would M4/3 be now without them :)
m4/3 would be exactly at the same position. While the L1 had a good design and control layout, the E-330 was rather ugly. Both cameras had a unacceptable bad view finder, so they were understandably not that successful, which let Panasonic ultimately quit its 4/3 investment.

Instead, Panasonic moved to a more reasonable system and was the mirrorless pioneer by introducing the G1. The G1 was about as ergonomic as the L1, but had a large view finder, much better than the L1.

So, the E-330 and L1 weren't milestones, just the opposite. For Panasonic it was a failure, for Olympus, the E-330 did nothing to drive them outr of loss. Anti-milestones.
 
".....say's you. :-|

We all have an opinion. I happened to own both, and both were superb photographic instruments of their time and the E330 led the field with their introduction to LV.

Wow...a classic example of how different folks can view the same scenario' and then proclaim the glass as being either of half empty or half full.
 
Why do you call it GX7?.... Did we have any GX cameras after GX1? ...
 
l_objectif wrote:

Why do you call it GX7?.... Did we have any GX cameras after GX1? ...
The accepted intelligence is that the name of the camera will be GX7. I believe that 43rumors has confirmed this a number of times. The speculation is that Panasonic wants to emphasize the next-generation nature of this camera, a step beyond the G6 and GF6. However, Panasonic is not consistent in this generational nomenclature. After all, GH3 is the current leading camera, and G6 has a different (better) sensor than GF6. Some people had expected that a corner-VF camera would be called something different, like perhaps GL1.

--

JoelH
 
Much rumored GX7 is interesting except price & IQ. If Panasonic price it @ $1000+ for the body, they need to have a sensor that beats current Nikon, Sony & Fujifilm APS-C sensor.
 
Donald Chin wrote:

Much rumored GX7 is interesting except price & IQ. If Panasonic price it @ $1000+ for the body, they need to have a sensor that beats current Nikon, Sony & Fujifilm APS-C sensor.
I understand that point of view, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the GX7 sensor to beat the latest and larger sensors for low-light IQ. Most of us are happy if the IQ is very good, which I feel is true of the current top-range Panasonic cameras (both the excellent GH3 and the somewhat lesser-performing, but still very good G5/G6). Demanding better low-light performance than the top-range APS-C cameras is simply a set-up for future rejection of the product.

There are currently some tempting APS-C bodies, but I am still more impressed by the range and compactness of M43 lenses. If I had no investment in either format, I would take a hard look at the Fuji X-E1 and its lenses, seems to be growing into a very nice system but certainly not a clear winner for several reasons.

There is some justification to demand equal or better than Panasonic GH3 and Olympus E-M5 / E-P5, but I personally will not reject the camera on that basis alone if it turns out to be "close but not quite". We'll just have to see what Panasonic brings with this model.

I expect the body to be around $1k or higher, but I hope it's a bit lower. I also expect to see many many posts that deride the price, comparing it to unrelated camera prices, street prices, used prices, clearance prices etc.

--

JoelH
 
A very interesting post!

You are right, the GX7 will be a success only, if the package is just right and matches the price.

The difficulty is, that this GX7 comes rather late - the EM5 has set a high standard, and now, with the EP5 as direct rival but without EVF, plus the NEX 6, NEX 7, it's rumored successor, the X Pro 1 and XE1, it has to top their sensors significantly.

This will be difficult with a 16 MP sensor, so there has to be a higher pixel count, and I doubt a 18MP multi aspect sensor will do it.It would have to be a 24 MP sensor or some new technology, but I don't see that for this year.

With just a GH3 sensor and EVF and only 2 axis IBIS the GX7 will be behind the aging EM5, not a big recommendation.

Peter.
 
Last edited:
Joel Halbert wrote:
Donald Chin wrote:

Much rumored GX7 is interesting except price & IQ. If Panasonic price it @ $1000+ for the body, they need to have a sensor that beats current Nikon, Sony & Fujifilm APS-C sensor.
I understand that point of view, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the GX7 sensor to beat the latest and larger sensors for low-light IQ. Most of us are happy if the IQ is very good, which I feel is true of the current top-range Panasonic cameras (both the excellent GH3 and the somewhat lesser-performing, but still very good G5/G6). Demanding better low-light performance than the top-range APS-C cameras is simply a set-up for future rejection of the product.

There are currently some tempting APS-C bodies, but I am still more impressed by the range and compactness of M43 lenses. If I had no investment in either format, I would take a hard look at the Fuji X-E1 and its lenses, seems to be growing into a very nice system but certainly not a clear winner for several reasons.

There is some justification to demand equal or better than Panasonic GH3 and Olympus E-M5 / E-P5, but I personally will not reject the camera on that basis alone if it turns out to be "close but not quite". We'll just have to see what Panasonic brings with this model.

I expect the body to be around $1k or higher, but I hope it's a bit lower. I also expect to see many many posts that deride the price, comparing it to unrelated camera prices, street prices, used prices, clearance prices etc.

--

JoelH
If it's just a "me too" sensor like the one in GH-3, then they have to cut the price to around $700 in order to compete. For a $1000+ price tag, we're talking about high-end APS-C DSLR like 700D & D7100! :-)
 
eques wrote:

...With just a GH3 sensor and EVF and only 2 axis IBIS the GX7 will be behind the aging EM5, not a big recommendation.
Well, the reported sensor is 18MP, which I think is plenty for resolution. It is therefore assumed to be a new sensor not previously used, but other details are unknown at this point. It would be nice if it at least matches the performance of the GH3's imager, which appears to be identical to EM5, not behind it. Again, I personally would not reject the camera if it is slightly below this image quality but is an excellent machine in other ways.

Regarding the IBIS, I think that any IBIS is already a welcome surprise from Panasonic - Lumix OIS is extremely effective on their zooms, but the addition of IBIS does substantially enhance the use of Olympus and other non-stabilized lenses on Lumix bodies. Having grown up with no stabilization, and now having much more usable high ISO vs. film (i.e. faster shutter speed capability), I am less insistent that one can't live without ultimate stabilization performance. I know about the 5-axis vs. 2-axis mantra, but it's hardly the end of the world (I guess the correct jargon is "not a deal-breaker"). Also, I won't be surprised to see the GX7 IBIS having some kind of ability to cooperate with Lumix lens OIS - but again we'll have to wait and see.

--

JoelH
 
But was the L1 a good camera? From what I understand, the viewfinder was in fact rather bad. I think some people like the L1 mainly because it resembles premium rangefinder cameras, e.g., Leica.

Ergonomically, I personally think the G1 layout makes more sense. The centre viewfinder makes it more easy to hold the camera stably towards the face. But this is an area with different opinions, clearly.
 
Joel Halbert wrote:
Regarding the IBIS, I think that any IBIS is already a welcome surprise from Panasonic - Lumix OIS is extremely effective on their zooms, but the addition of IBIS does substantially enhance the use of Olympus and other non-stabilized lenses on Lumix bodies. Having grown up with no stabilization, and now having much more usable high ISO vs. film (i.e. faster shutter speed capability), I am less insistent that one can't live without ultimate stabilization performance. I know about the 5-axis vs. 2-axis mantra, but it's hardly the end of the world (I guess the correct jargon is "not a deal-breaker"). Also, I won't be surprised to see the GX7 IBIS having some kind of ability to cooperate with Lumix lens OIS - but again we'll have to wait and see.
It seems to me that Lumix users are still in denial of the main argument for a strong IBIS. Is that is closes the gap in luminosity with other bigger formats, by allowing to shoot at lower ISO. Say if the gap is two stops with FF, it is more than plugged by a 4 stop IBIS.

Additionally there is the steadycam effect for video, and the stabilised image in the viewfinder which is extremely useful with long lenses.

The GX7 looks like an interesting camera but it will need a lot of improving to even reach the technological level of an E-M5. You simply can't go on parading that YOU are so good that you don't even need IS in the first place.

Because of the above it has become a strawman of the uninformed. Strong IBIS is NOT a secondary feature.

Am.

 
The GX7 could very well be a game changer for Panasonic. Looks like they are aiming for a nicely looking "rangefinder-esque" camera, which should satisfy both those interested in the technical level, and those who like the somewhat nostalgic rangefinder look.

If it has IBIS as well, it could be a Sony NEX-6 killer. And they are (apparently) upgrading the sensor to 18MP, to satisfy those who compare MP-figures.

The price point might be a bit high, though. But people may very well be willing to pay this price for the features.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/
 
Last edited:
Does anyone know which proces Panny's lab uses? It is clear to me this is a deciding factor. It is the reason why Sony made a jump in sensorperformance a couple of years ago. It is a reason why Canon sensor remained constant for 4 years and it is also a reaon why Panny sensors for the last 3 years have not become any better either I think.

We also see that Sony sensored cams are now standing still. NEX6 does not perform much better than its predecessor. D7100 is not much better than D7000. And because Canon is moving on to a new fabrication process, they are expected to make a singificant leap forward.

If Panny's new 18 MPixel sensor is made with new tech, we can expect a good jump in performance. Say somewhere around 73 in DxO numbers. As Oly will most likely keep sourcing Sony sensors for the coming years, the next few cams will not perform much better in RAW.

Also, if the sensor is really new I wonder if Panny will use a form of PDAF on the sensor and if so how will it perform?

What do you expect from this sensor?
 
eques wrote:

A very interesting post!

You are right, the GX7 will be a success only, if the package is just right and matches the price.

The difficulty is, that this GX7 comes rather late - the EM5 has set a high standard, and now, with the EP5 as direct rival but without EVF, plus the NEX 6, NEX 7, it's rumored successor, the X Pro 1 and XE1, it has to top their sensors significantly.

This will be difficult with a 16 MP sensor, so there has to be a higher pixel count, and I doubt a 18MP multi aspect sensor will do it.It would have to be a 24 MP sensor or some new technology, but I don't see that for this year.

With just a GH3 sensor and EVF and only 2 axis IBIS the GX7 will be behind the aging EM5, not a big recommendation.

Peter.
If it is true that in order to succeed, mFTs need to have IQ as good as the best APS-c and the same resolution the end is close. Because you simply cannot expect that to ever happen.

Panasonic needs to have that 18 MPixel sensor with EPL5 IQ. That is enough. The latest APS-c sensors did not perform much better so the there is a gap but it is not very big. Now, within the mFT range of cambodies, here is what GX7 would make very tempting:

1) EVF built in. I think this is a huge thing. It is what many who buy EPL5 and other cams wanted for a very long time

2) AF tracking rivalling the Nikon1. That would quite huge too and would really put it well ahead of anything Oly offers currently

3) IBIS, even if 2-Axis, with 2,5 to 3 stops gain would put Oly at a further disadvantage because that Oly-exclusive and excellent feature (for primes especially) is now no longer unique. And here is the advantage: you have IBIS and still do not get purple fringing etc.

4) 1/8000s shutter and TRUE ISO 100. So ISO 100 gets you the best DR and best noise.

5) Video like the G6. Would be nice and should be possible

6) Of course FP (also in video , intervalometer, inbody panorama etc are nice to have

7 Better JPEgs, but panny has come a long way already.

Now 1) and 2) will be quite a challenge. But they are not impossible. The other things can be done already in other cams, so why not in the GX7?

If can do all those well enough, GX7 would turn the tables I think. I also think that the price for that is > 1000 euro body only...
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top