Avoiding EVF frame blackout

[mike in london]

Ah that makes sense and it’s that experience I want!

 

[mike in london]

I have been a Nikon Pro for 40 years and want to get rid of my multitude of heavy bodies and lenses and get just one decent light weight mirrorless setup

I still shoot available light portraits and sports professionally occasionally and I tried a friends A7RV but was surprised at the EVF blackout during high speed tracking/shooting meaning I’d miss the shot now and then

my research seems to point to the technology in that camera and it being unavoidable. Is that correct? It seems you can avoid it using a camera with a stacked sensor like the A9 or A1 is that also correct? Sorry I’m new to all this technology!

My light weight set up to cover 24-200 was going to be a 24-50 f2.8 and a 70-200 f4 which would be significantly lighter than the Nikon Z8 equivalents

does this sound like a good lightweight set up pairing with an A9 or A1?

Just responding to your OP - I'm not going to get involved in the arguments that followed.

The A7RV has a very slow sensor - it takes almost 1/10s to scan the entire sensor, making electronic shutter suffer from awful rolling shutter if anything in your image is moving. That's also the cause of the issues with the EVF - if the camera is busy scanning the image on the sensor, it's not going to be updating the EVF. Unlike the DSLRs you are used to, there's no separate optical path to the viewfinder while the image is being read from the sensor.

I own an A7RV, and use it for things like studio work, but as far as I'm concerned it's a mechanical shutter camera, and I don't shoot bursts on it - just single frames. For that, it's excellent.

I have both the current A9 and A1, and the EVF is blackout free and continuous on both. The A9 III is a superb camera for shooting high speed action with tracking. The global shutter is a bonus when shooting action, because it really does have zero rolling shutter. In fact, I think the images from the A9 III are a tiny bit sharper, because every pixel in the plane of focus is captured simultaneously.

The 70-200 f/4 G II is a fine lens, and the macro feature is a bonus. I have the 20-70 f/4 G with it, and they work well together. For a (MUCH) less light alternative, the 28-70mm f/2 GM is a delight for portrait work - the 28-70 is a fine lens with both the A9 and A1.

Great thanks!

 

[mike in london]

That’s the info I wanted Thanks!



looks like if I want to get the experience I’m used it it’s got to be the A1 for me

 

[UncleVanya]

That’s the info I wanted Thanks!

looks like if I want to get the experience I’m used it it’s got to be the A1 for me

If you need the fps/blackout free/lag free evf/and high resolution it appears so. I assume the 24mp A9 series is insufficient resolution for what you want?

I am used to using the a7Riii and I shoot in compressed raw which is apparently a tad faster than the a7RV at 1/30th of a second roughly. I also don't shoot a lot of action. From what I read here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SonyAlpha/comments/16pn3jr/a7rv_eshutter_lag

the a7R V at best can do about 1/20th of a second in compressed raw (12bit). Both slow to 1/2 that speed with the 14bit modes.

I will have to play with it and compare to my a6600

 

[moficera]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

 

[A74Me]

That’s the info I wanted Thanks!

looks like if I want to get the experience I’m used it it’s got to be the A1 for me

a dslr has mirror blackout which is way slower than any modern mirrorless camera evf. there is no camera that has a completly no black out evf, the speed of electricity and processors count for that human response times of min150 mil sec will play a bigger part of missing the shot if a bird suddenly changes direction.

 

[Ralf B]

moficera wrote

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

DSLRs with their flapping mirrors interrupting the AF light path and the OVF view in every single shot...a technology with pros and cons like these mentioned - and more (mirror slap noise, etc...) .

And not every OVF was as good as that of the OPs Nikon D810 or my a900, remember PentaMirror? Yikes....

Anyway, that discussion was hot when the SLTs and then first ILCs appeared on the market more than a decade ago.

A matter long decided by the market.

 

[A74Me]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

this has been beaten to death 10 years ago, and no one can prove dslr is better than mirrorless even non stacked sensors.

 

[Ralf B]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

this has been beaten to death 10 years ago, and no one can prove dslr is better than mirrorless even non stacked sensors.

I agree, see above ;-)
Cheers,
Ralf

 

[Interceptor121]

That’s the info I wanted Thanks!

looks like if I want to get the experience I’m used it it’s got to be the A1 for me

a dslr has mirror blackout which is way slower than any modern mirrorless camera evf. there is no camera that has a completly no black out evf, the speed of electricity and processors count for that human response times of min150 mil sec will play a bigger part of missing the shot if a bird suddenly changes direction.

Mirror black out is not way slower. Most DSLR sync at 1/200 or 1/250 which is comparable or faster than stacked sensor of the current generation

Reponse times add to each other they are not in a sequence when one is bottleneck so your reasoning is flawed

In general from a user experience point of view all mirrorless camera that are backilluminated so far are less useable than a DSLR. When mechanical shutter goes down they are worse or equal when electronic shutter is used they have rolling shutter unless they read faster than 60fps

As of today there are no full frame cameras that have high megapixel count and read fast that are not stacked

--
If you like my image I would appreciate if you follow me on social media
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
If you want to get in touch don't send me a PM rather contact me directly at my website/social media

 

[dazzerfong]

moficera wrote

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

DSLRs with their flapping mirrors interrupting the AF light path and the OVF view in every single shot...a technology with pros and cons like these mentioned - and more (mirror slap noise, etc...) .

And not every OVF was as good as that of the OPs Nikon D810 or my a900, remember PentaMirror? Yikes....

Anyway, that discussion was hot when the SLTs and then first ILCs appeared on the market more than a decade ago.

A matter long decided by the market.

The advantage of DSLRs compared to non-blackout free EVFs is that the only black you see in DSLRs is when the mirror flips up. That flip up time is independent from sensor readout speed and is considerably shorter than the readout from non-stacked sensors. It means that whilst the shutter is down and being read out slowly, the mirror has already deployed back down and thus can see through it.

My dad's D810 had considerably less blackout time than my old A7IV despite having a much lower FPS. Now whether or not it matters to you is another wholly different story.

 

[jhunna]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

That's not true. I don't need to break my leg to know that it hurts, others can tell me it hurts and that's good enough for me to want to avoid breaking my leg.

There are multiple discussions in this thread, one about black out the other about missing shots due to blackout. I don't care about the non blackout experience because if anyone can tell me they are missing shots at 8fps, they are already trusting the camera to do the work, not their vision. Somehow a blackout causes them to lose confidence in the camera's ability to capture that shot.

Lastly if one really doesn't want to miss a shot, use video or the latest a9. No blackout is a comfort, not a necessity. Just to show I am not trying to be a jerk, Sony's Autofocus is a comfort to me. Not a necessity. So I understand someone wanting no blackout.

 

[dazzerfong]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

That's not true. I don't need to break my leg to know that it hurts, others can tell me it hurts and that's good enough for me to want to avoid breaking my leg.

There are multiple discussions in this thread, one about black out the other about missing shots due to blackout. I don't care about the non blackout experience because if anyone can tell me they are missing shots at 8fps, they are already trusting the camera to do the work, not their vision. Somehow a blackout causes them to lose confidence in the camera's ability to capture that shot.

Lastly if one really doesn't want to miss a shot, use video or the latest a9. No blackout is a comfort, not a necessity. Just to show I am not trying to be a jerk, Sony's Autofocus is a comfort to me. Not a necessity. So I understand someone wanting no blackout.

It is -much- easier to track players darting around with a blackout free EVF. A lot of the shots I've seen from you are cropped massively with a very deep DoF - precise framing isn't a problem.

However, if you have a supertele prime which completely misses framing the moment you sneeze, blackout free helps.

And to be honest, between a DSLR or something like an A7IV for sports, it's a hard pick - A7IV has an easier time focusing but the DSLR has an easier time following in bursts. Especially on HI+ where it shows the last frame captured in your EVF - you overseeing so much more and framing becomes suboptimal.

 

[jhunna]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

That's not true. I don't need to break my leg to know that it hurts, others can tell me it hurts and that's good enough for me to want to avoid breaking my leg.

There are multiple discussions in this thread, one about black out the other about missing shots due to blackout. I don't care about the non blackout experience because if anyone can tell me they are missing shots at 8fps, they are already trusting the camera to do the work, not their vision. Somehow a blackout causes them to lose confidence in the camera's ability to capture that shot.

Lastly if one really doesn't want to miss a shot, use video or the latest a9. No blackout is a comfort, not a necessity. Just to show I am not trying to be a jerk, Sony's Autofocus is a comfort to me. Not a necessity. So I understand someone wanting no blackout.

It is -much- easier to track players darting around with a blackout free EVF. A lot of the shots I've seen from you are cropped massively with a very deep DoF - precise framing isn't a problem.

True. That is primarily a limitation of my glass and my not needing more than 4k (8MP) shots.

However, if you have a supertele prime which completely misses framing the moment you sneeze, blackout free helps.

Damn good point. I had not considered this limitation. With 60MP I purposely frame for the crop, and that gives me a lot of leeway around the outside of the subject when it comes to getting the shot. I can see this being an issue with 24MP.

And while I know this isn't for everyone. If I needed blackout free photos I would just shoot high res video, in slog3, at a fast shutter speed. We have a lot of options, so I would get the shot if I had the fast glass. There is always a way, it may not be optimal, but I love pushing my equipment.

And to be honest, between a DSLR or something like an A7IV for sports, it's a hard pick - A7IV has an easier time focusing but the DSLR has an easier time following in bursts. Especially on HI+ where it shows the last frame captured in your EVF - you overseeing so much more and framing becomes suboptimal.

Got it thanks for sharing and clarifying.

 

[dazzerfong]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

That's not true. I don't need to break my leg to know that it hurts, others can tell me it hurts and that's good enough for me to want to avoid breaking my leg.

There are multiple discussions in this thread, one about black out the other about missing shots due to blackout. I don't care about the non blackout experience because if anyone can tell me they are missing shots at 8fps, they are already trusting the camera to do the work, not their vision. Somehow a blackout causes them to lose confidence in the camera's ability to capture that shot.

Lastly if one really doesn't want to miss a shot, use video or the latest a9. No blackout is a comfort, not a necessity. Just to show I am not trying to be a jerk, Sony's Autofocus is a comfort to me. Not a necessity. So I understand someone wanting no blackout.

It is -much- easier to track players darting around with a blackout free EVF. A lot of the shots I've seen from you are cropped massively with a very deep DoF - precise framing isn't a problem.

True. That is primarily a limitation of my glass and my not needing more than 4k (8MP) shots.

However, if you have a supertele prime which completely misses framing the moment you sneeze, blackout free helps.

Damn good point. I had not considered this limitation. With 60MP I purposely frame for the crop, and that gives me a lot of leeway around the outside of the subject when it comes to getting the shot. I can see this being an issue with 24MP.

And while I know this isn't for everyone. If I needed blackout free photos I would just shoot high res video, in slog3, at a fast shutter speed. We have a lot of options, so I would get the shot if I had the fast glass. There is always a way, it may not be optimal, but I love pushing my equipment.

And to be honest, between a DSLR or something like an A7IV for sports, it's a hard pick - A7IV has an easier time focusing but the DSLR has an easier time following in bursts. Especially on HI+ where it shows the last frame captured in your EVF - you overseeing so much more and framing becomes suboptimal.

Got it thanks for sharing and clarifying.

Me personally, I hate cropping - I consider it a personal failure if I need to crop in post. That's just a personal standard I set for myself, and it does mean that I burn through images trying to get optimal framing.

That kind of attitude walked me down the road to stacked sensors, where I could finally concentrate fully on framing rather than get distracted momentarily.

 

[jhunna]

dazzerfong wrote:.

[SNIP]

Me personally, I hate cropping - I consider it a personal failure if I need to crop in post. That's just a personal standard I set for myself, and it does mean that I burn through images trying to get optimal framing.

I get that, but I almost never miss a moment with the 60MP and RAW and the focus of Sony I will get something that's recoverable and meaningful. Also, I have found I can change the emotion of a shot after the fact. So many aspects of my f8 sports shots are garbage until I crop them, and then I get wows from the families.

That kind of attitude walked me down the road to stacked sensors, where I could finally concentrate fully on framing rather than get distracted momentarily.

I am used to getting the composition right in camera, but I also like experimenting to get the shots. I just did a post on jpegs so my thought process is get it right in camera. I am playing with the 12MP ZV-E1 and proper composition is important as there is little room to crop. I just need to adjust my mindset before going out to shoot.

As far as stacked sensors and global shutters, I think I am good until they make a 40MP global shutter that can shoot 8k video. I really like my A7CR as it does everything I want accept 8k.

 

[A74Me]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

That's not true. I don't need to break my leg to know that it hurts, others can tell me it hurts and that's good enough for me to want to avoid breaking my leg.

There are multiple discussions in this thread, one about black out the other about missing shots due to blackout. I don't care about the non blackout experience because if anyone can tell me they are missing shots at 8fps, they are already trusting the camera to do the work, not their vision. Somehow a blackout causes them to lose confidence in the camera's ability to capture that shot.

Lastly if one really doesn't want to miss a shot, use video or the latest a9. No blackout is a comfort, not a necessity. Just to show I am not trying to be a jerk, Sony's Autofocus is a comfort to me. Not a necessity. So I understand someone wanting no blackout.

It is -much- easier to track players darting around with a blackout free EVF. A lot of the shots I've seen from you are cropped massively with a very deep DoF - precise framing isn't a problem.

However, if you have a supertele prime which completely misses framing the moment you sneeze, blackout free helps.

And to be honest, between a DSLR or something like an A7IV for sports, it's a hard pick - A7IV has an easier time focusing but the DSLR has an easier time following in bursts. Especially on HI+ where it shows the last frame captured in your EVF - you overseeing so much more and framing becomes suboptimal.

i shot my daughters top junior netball comps from the side line for years with my a7r2 in electronic shutter mode and didnt miss a shot including the ball. video was also no problem. in fact the results were much better than my em1mk2.

 

[dazzerfong]

I have only shot action on non stacked sensor...

Ok, so you don't know what difference it makes. Let alone when you are used to OVF from DSLRs.

That's not true. I don't need to break my leg to know that it hurts, others can tell me it hurts and that's good enough for me to want to avoid breaking my leg.

There are multiple discussions in this thread, one about black out the other about missing shots due to blackout. I don't care about the non blackout experience because if anyone can tell me they are missing shots at 8fps, they are already trusting the camera to do the work, not their vision. Somehow a blackout causes them to lose confidence in the camera's ability to capture that shot.

Lastly if one really doesn't want to miss a shot, use video or the latest a9. No blackout is a comfort, not a necessity. Just to show I am not trying to be a jerk, Sony's Autofocus is a comfort to me. Not a necessity. So I understand someone wanting no blackout.

It is -much- easier to track players darting around with a blackout free EVF. A lot of the shots I've seen from you are cropped massively with a very deep DoF - precise framing isn't a problem.

However, if you have a supertele prime which completely misses framing the moment you sneeze, blackout free helps.

And to be honest, between a DSLR or something like an A7IV for sports, it's a hard pick - A7IV has an easier time focusing but the DSLR has an easier time following in bursts. Especially on HI+ where it shows the last frame captured in your EVF - you overseeing so much more and framing becomes suboptimal.

i shot my daughters top junior netball comps from the side line for years with my a7r2 in electronic shutter mode and didnt miss a shot including the ball. video was also no problem. in fact the results were much better than my em1mk2.

Netball's a fairly slow game compared to something like football so I can't say I'm surprised. Basketball was also surprisingly pretty manageable with an A7IV. It was only when I got to football with the 200-600 that I started to struggle hard with framing and was forced to zoom out and crop after the fact.

 

[dazzerfong]

dazzerfong wrote:.

[SNIP]

Me personally, I hate cropping - I consider it a personal failure if I need to crop in post. That's just a personal standard I set for myself, and it does mean that I burn through images trying to get optimal framing.

I get that, but I almost never miss a moment with the 60MP and RAW and the focus of Sony I will get something that's recoverable and meaningful. Also, I have found I can change the emotion of a shot after the fact. So many aspects of my f8 sports shots are garbage until I crop them, and then I get wows from the families.

That kind of attitude walked me down the road to stacked sensors, where I could finally concentrate fully on framing rather than get distracted momentarily.

I am used to getting the composition right in camera, but I also like experimenting to get the shots. I just did a post on jpegs so my thought process is get it right in camera. I am playing with the 12MP ZV-E1 and proper composition is important as there is little room to crop. I just need to adjust my mindset before going out to shoot.

As far as stacked sensors and global shutters, I think I am good until they make a 40MP global shutter that can shoot 8k video. I really like my A7CR as it does everything I want accept 8k.

It's not so much about missing the moment, it's more about misframing the moment. Again if you're happy to crop aggressively in post that's entirely your prerogative, and as long as the end-user is satisfied with the result then that's all that needs to be said.

Then the subsequent question is - why do I need the full resolution? It's less to do with the full 24/33/50/61MP and more to do with the background separation I get. And again, it's personal satisfaction.

 

[jhunna]

i shot my daughters top junior netball comps from the side line for years with my a7r2 in electronic shutter mode and didnt miss a shot including the ball. video was also no problem. in fact the results were much better than my em1mk2.

I agree with this. I think we have a mixture of pros and amateurs and there are those who need perfect professional level shots and those who need "I got it". I fall firmly into the last category, so will use any aspect of my incredibly capable hybrid camera to get the moment.

I tried to use electronic shutter but outside field games require too much panning to make electronic shutter viable on an unstacked sensor. For wrestling it would have been great.