Auto ISO and min shutter speed...can anyone confirm?

[Truman Prevatt]

The limitation of Fuji's implementation of Min SS is it's really lens-specific. Yes, I can set the Min SS on my X-T5 anywhere from 30 sec to 1/8000 sec but as soon as I switch lenses, it becomes much less helpful unless I switch the Min SS along with it.

A better idea (I think) is to allow the user to set a Min SS that's some multiple or even fraction of 1/f. My vague recollection is Pentax had something like this many years ago.

On my Z8 and I suspect on the Z7II, Zf and Z6III it is the same. You can set min SS to a set speed or automatic. The Auto setting is 1/f. Then you find fine tune that by adding or subtracting a number of stops in 1/3 stop increment. So Auto and plus 1 stop would result in basically 1/2f, etc. That makes the process lens independent which makes sense except for long lenses and moving wild life you would probably need to change the min shutter speed to be faster than say on a mid range zoom in general shooting.

With Fuji one would have to do it with the three different Auto ISO settings and remember to switch.

 

[Erik Baumgartner]

The limitation of Fuji's implementation of Min SS is it's really lens-specific. Yes, I can set the Min SS on my X-T5 anywhere from 30 sec to 1/8000 sec but as soon as I switch lenses, it becomes much less helpful unless I switch the Min SS along with it.

A better idea (I think) is to allow the user to set a Min SS that's some multiple or even fraction of 1/f. My vague recollection is Pentax had something like this many years ago.

There should be both 1.5x/f and 2x/f options, IMO. Auto min. SS as it is now is completely worthless, I never use it.

Yes

Besides fixing that, the single most desirable option that I've been going on about for years would be the ability to assign the minimum Auto-ISO SS value to a dial so you could easily and quickly ride the minimum allowable speed as the level of action changes. The 3 presets "work", but this would be way faster/easier/better.

I can not agree more. I have said it so many times.

No brands do that, which is crazy. I mean they do not have the basic idea to be able to use the ss dial to set the minimum shutter speed.

It is not at all a detail.. Personnally, I think if one brand implements this idea, I will buy it, even if I have to switch. But others will quickly follow, the problem is that one brand has to start and so far this is not the case.

So I agree with you

I really can’t see any reason why this couldn’t be easily implemented in any number of ways - ideally, something like a menu item that simply toggles the normal “T” mode operation from SS to minimum SS limit if Auto-ISO is active.

 

[Bill Ferris]

I use auto ISO regularly and set min shutter speed increasingly faster for Auto1,2 and 3.

My new XS20, allows choices up to 1/4000 s but my XH2 tops out at 1/500 as all Fujifilm cameras do (or did I thought).

I would like to know whether any of the XT5, XT50, XM5 and XH2s models also offer faster min shutter speeds than 1/500 since they all share the same latest processor.

Reviewing the "Sensitivity" sections of the camera manuals, the X-H2 and X-H2S both have 1/500 as the fastest available minimum shutter speed. The X-T5 (1/8000), X-T50 (1/4000), and X-M5 (1/4000) all have their respective fastest shutter speeds as the fastest available minimum shutter speed. The X100VI has a 1/4000 maximum shutter speed but a 1/2000 maximum as the fastest available minimum shutter speed in auto ISO.

This is a well-known Fujifilm design flaw.

There is a difference between an engineering design decision and a design flaw. While it might be a head scratcher - this has been the standard for Fuji cameras through the XH2/XH2S cameras. The XT5 changed that. I expect further cameras will change the min shutter speeds in auto ISO to higher that 1/500 as was done in the XT5.

On the other hand there are potential settings conflicts that will need to be addressed, e.g., Electronic First Curtain but it can be done since they seem to have been done in the XT5.

In reality for the case that one needs to insure a fast shutter speed, maybe Aperture priority and Auto ISO is not the best choice.

Why not? With minimum SS preset options up to 1/8000", it's would be my preferred way of shooting most things. EC on the front dial (which optimally fine-tunes both SS and/or ISO), and I'm good to go.

I fully agree, there is absolutely no reason to have this limitation.

What can be called workarounds are in fact not as good. If you force a given shutter speed and the camera can not raise it, there are risks of blown out highlights.

There are risks of blown highlights, crushed blacks, or other hits to image quality in every exposure mode. None is free of risk.

Some modes are more risky.

For example: aperture priority with auto ISO when the camera may choose a shutter speed much slower than you want used.

I understand and respect your preference for aperture priority plus auto ISO for at least some of the photography you do.

Strange that you say so when I explicitely say in my post:

"Auto iso with min shutter speed is a kind of manual + autoiso but better, at least for me and all the users who want to take advantage of this mode."

I mean this is very clear, how could you miss that ?

Clearly, I didn't. I acknowledged your preference and added the following: Hopefully, Fujifilm continues the practice of offering expanded minimum shutter speed options with auto ISO in new releases. I suppose it's possible they'll make expanded options available to the X-H2 & X-H2S via firmware updates. It would seem a logical step given these are top-line bodies.

That said, you're statement that using another exposure mode would, in fact, not be as good takes personal preference a bit too far.

This is not a general statement and it was said in the context of trying to find a workaround. People have to be aware of what they loose.

The choice of exposure mode and settings is a balancing act. There are pros and cons to all options. Fortunately, if limited minimum shutter speed options in auto ISO make aperture priority less reliable than a photographer would like, there are other modes offering a wider range of available shutter speeds. They may not be a person's first choice but they're just as capable of delivering a great image.

I do not draw any conclusions about people using other modes. They do whatever they prefer.

 

[justin_time]

There is a difference between an engineering design decision and a design flaw.

Yes, they are different things. But the engineering design decision made by Fuji on auto-iso being limited to 1/500th second results in a design flaw. Software engineers should not be unnecessarily limiting how we use the cameras.
The statement made by someone higher in the thread that "there are workarounds" is illuminating. Good designs don't need workarounds. Needing workarounds means the design is flawed.

 

[Truman Prevatt]

There is a difference between an engineering design decision and a design flaw.

Yes, they are different things. But the engineering design decision made by Fuji on auto-iso being limited to 1/500th second results in a design flaw. Software engineers should not be unnecessarily limiting how we use the cameras.
The statement made by someone higher in the thread that "there are workarounds" is illuminating. Good designs don't need workarounds. Needing workarounds means the design is flawed.

Neither of us has any idea why that decision was made. Only the Fujifilm engineers at the time of the development knows the requirements that drove the decisions. That design goes back to early days of FujiX cameras and there may have been good reasons for it - we don't know nor will we. It may very well been that in the requirements laid out for the XT2, there was none that would have led to a different decision.

It seems clear that Fuji is evolving that design. However, we don't know the details of the camera nor the interdependence within the H/W and S/W on changing this. It may not have been as easy as changing 1/500 to 1/2000 or what ever without redesigning other elements in the S/W.

Clearly there is a new S/W baseline that has addressed that decision in the XT5 and later. Will it come to the XH2/S - I expect if it were going to it would have been in one of the recent FW updates. Will it be in new models as we move forward, I suspect so.

 

[Erik Baumgartner]

I use auto ISO regularly and set min shutter speed increasingly faster for Auto1,2 and 3.

My new XS20, allows choices up to 1/4000 s but my XH2 tops out at 1/500 as all Fujifilm cameras do (or did I thought).

I would like to know whether any of the XT5, XT50, XM5 and XH2s models also offer faster min shutter speeds than 1/500 since they all share the same latest processor.

Reviewing the "Sensitivity" sections of the camera manuals, the X-H2 and X-H2S both have 1/500 as the fastest available minimum shutter speed. The X-T5 (1/8000), X-T50 (1/4000), and X-M5 (1/4000) all have their respective fastest shutter speeds as the fastest available minimum shutter speed. The X100VI has a 1/4000 maximum shutter speed but a 1/2000 maximum as the fastest available minimum shutter speed in auto ISO.

This is a well-known Fujifilm design flaw.

There is a difference between an engineering design decision and a design flaw. While it might be a head scratcher - this has been the standard for Fuji cameras through the XH2/XH2S cameras. The XT5 changed that. I expect further cameras will change the min shutter speeds in auto ISO to higher that 1/500 as was done in the XT5.

On the other hand there are potential settings conflicts that will need to be addressed, e.g., Electronic First Curtain but it can be done since they seem to have been done in the XT5.

In reality for the case that one needs to insure a fast shutter speed, maybe Aperture priority and Auto ISO is not the best choice.

Why not? With minimum SS preset options up to 1/8000", it's would be my preferred way of shooting most things. EC on the front dial (which optimally fine-tunes both SS and/or ISO), and I'm good to go.

I fully agree, there is absolutely no reason to have this limitation.

What can be called workarounds are in fact not as good. If you force a given shutter speed and the camera can not raise it, there are risks of blown out highlights.

There are risks of blown highlights, crushed blacks, or other hits to image quality in every exposure mode. None is free of risk.

Some modes are more risky.

For example: aperture priority with auto ISO when the camera may choose a shutter speed much slower than you want used.

That's what minimum SS setting is for. If your max ISO preset value is at ISO 12800, it is unlikely that the min SS setting will be overridden. I would also argue that, if ISO 12800 isn't high enough for the desired image lightness, you probably want to risk a lower SS for more sensor exposure anyway.

Which is exactly what happened here...


As there wasn't much subject motion going on, I let the camera override my minimum SS setting for an extra stop of sensor exposure rather than dealing with an extra stop of noise.

Here, I did the opposite...


As there was actually quite a lot of motion going on here, I simply dialed down the exposure compensation (effectively lowering the ISO) to keep the SS where it needed to be - very quick and easy to do with EC assigned to the front dial.

I should also point out that these shots were in extremely low light conditions, and that a potential min. SS override almost never happens.

I understand and respect your preference for aperture priority plus auto ISO for at least some of the photography you do.

Strange that you say so when I explicitely say in my post:

"Auto iso with min shutter speed is a kind of manual + autoiso but better, at least for me and all the users who want to take advantage of this mode."

I mean this is very clear, how could you miss that ?

Clearly, I didn't. I acknowledged your preference and added the following: Hopefully, Fujifilm continues the practice of offering expanded minimum shutter speed options with auto ISO in new releases. I suppose it's possible they'll make expanded options available to the X-H2 & X-H2S via firmware updates. It would seem a logical step given these are top-line bodies.

I think if they were going to add this feature to the X-H2 cameras, they would have already done so. If any camera ought to have it, it's the X-H2s. All the newer cameras have extended min SS limits (at the maximum mechanical shutter speed).

That said, you're statement that using another exposure mode would, in fact, not be as good takes personal preference a bit too far.

This is not a general statement and it was said in the context of trying to find a workaround. People have to be aware of what they loose.

The choice of exposure mode and settings is a balancing act. There are pros and cons to all options. Fortunately, if limited minimum shutter speed options in auto ISO make aperture priority less reliable than a photographer would like, there are other modes offering a wider range of available shutter speeds. They may not be a person's first choice but they're just as capable of delivering a great image.

I do not draw any conclusions about people using other modes. They do whatever they prefer.