7D settings for best RAW dynamic range?

[Asylum Photo]

Heya,

I got a 7D late last year, but haven't used it much as I got an X-Pro1 early this year as well. (The new shiny is always the most used shiny, right?)

So now I'm working on setting up my 7D for general use (Av mode, Auto ISO sort of thing), and in general I'm noticing that the highlight headroom is pretty bad compared to Fuji's X series (I have the X100 as well). I'm not posting this to create drama, just stating facts. I love the 7D's body, focusing system and most of it's features, but the sensor seems a tad lacking relative to my other two cameras.

Soooooo

I ask you, knowledgeable base of DPReview, what are some general settings that you guys use? I'm working with ACR7.1 as my raw editor. Currently I turned on Highlight Tone Priority and Auto Lighting Optimizer, but I'm unsure if either directly effects the raw files.

I'm doing Center metering to meter as much of the scene as possible (to hopefully get a middle ground exposure), but it's a bit inconsistent. It's better than evaluative, for me, though, as Evaluative seems to put too much weight on the focus point's "exposure".

I'm unsure of where exposure compensation "should" be set (it's all relative, so just looking at a general starting point). Is shadow recovery on the 7D decent? Should I drop exposure compensation a stop, and recover shadows in post? Or will that result in loss of image quality that outweighs unrecoverable highlights?

Anyways, any general advice is very much appreciated. I've been a long time Canon user, and am generally happy with the 7D, I've just been spoiled by another company's sensors (though, the other company has many faults of it's own in other arenas).
--
http://asylum-photo.com

 

[Jeff Peterman]

Highlight Tone Priority and Auto Lighting Optimizer, but I'm unsure if either directly effects the raw files.

I'm pretty sure that neither has any affect on RAW files. But they do slow down camera performance and limit the camera in other ways (for example, you can't select ISO100 if HTP is selected).

I'm doing Center metering to meter as much of the scene as possible (to hopefully get a middle ground exposure), but it's a bit inconsistent. It's better than evaluative, for me, though, as Evaluative seems to put too much weight on the focus point's "exposure".

Center metering is probably the least useful option, as it averages the light in a broad region at the center of the image - this could give over or under exposure depending on the view. I find that Evaluative works quite well, especially because the most important aspect of the shot is normally the one that is selected for the focus point. BUT, no metering is perfect so I also use exposure compensation and often check the exposure histogram.

I'm unsure of where exposure compensation "should" be set (it's all relative, so just looking at a general starting point). Is shadow recovery on the 7D decent? Should I drop exposure compensation a stop, and recover shadows in post? Or will that result in loss of image quality that outweighs unrecoverable highlights?

The best place for the EC depends on the scene/subject. If the scene has high contrast and the shadows are not as critical as the highlights, use EC or manual exposure to drop the highlights and minimize the over exposure - but if the shadows are a stop or more under exposed you will see noticeable noise when you recover them in post processing.
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25
http://www.jeffp25.smugmug.com

 

[TTMartin]

From what I've seen it appears that the best dynamic range from a 7D comes from ISO 200 to 800.

For maximum dynamic range I would shoot with HTP on at ISO 400 or 800. HTP shifts the ISO so shooting HTP ISO 200 is like shooting at ISO 100.

Of course shoot RAW and process in DPP.

ALO can be changed in DPP so its setting doesn't matter when you are shooting.

edit: Properly expose your image, do not under expose and plan on pulling detail out of the shadows. Canon already does a good job at preserving highlights. Turn on your 'blinkies', and adjust your exposure compensation using those.

 

[TTMartin]

For best results from Canon cameras, optimize the RAW file as much as possible in Canon DPP, if any further processing is needed, use DPP to convert and save to 16bit TIFF and then do any additional processing in your other editing program.

 

[Karl Gnter Wnsch]

Currently I turned on Highlight Tone Priority and Auto Lighting Optimizer, but I'm unsure if either directly effects the raw files.

HTP does affect RAW but it eats into your RAW headroom (and Adobe products don't treat files with HTP enabled correctly). ALO doesn't have an immediate effect on the RAW file but leads to differences perception by the user which again make the files less suitable for RAW editing.

It's better than evaluative, for me, though, as Evaluative seems to put too much weight on the focus point's "exposure".

on the 7D the metering is a subject metering not a simple evaluative metering. So simply get used to that and you'll find that you can easily rely on that.

I'm unsure of where exposure compensation "should" be set (it's all relative, so just looking at a general starting point).

It should be set so that the subject is exposed correctly! The more you're off (in any direction) the worse the results will be!
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

 

[Karl Gnter Wnsch]

I'm pretty sure that neither has any affect on RAW files.

Wrong, HTP does have an immediate effect on the RAW files as it is implemented on the level of the signal amplification.
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch

 

[ESfishdoc]

A couple of general things I believe to be true.

There is nothing that takes the place of a near perfect exposure.

When I need or want that perfect exposure I use my Sekonic L-358. When working with the right exposure I've never felt limited with the dynamic range of the 7D or 5DMkII.

When working with an image that clearly exceeds the dynamic range of the camera and I want detail in the shadow and highlights I bracket multiple images on a tripod and use layers and masks in photoshop to use the pieces from multiple images.

Near perfect exposures are rarely found with AV. Many times the exposure is quite adequate... but rarely near perfect.

I avoid auto iso like the plague.... actually I've avoided the plague all my life but I've tried auto iso to find out I don't like it and most will never use it.

I won't comment on HTP as I don't use it and have never felt a need for it or to even experiment with it.

Richard

--
http://esfishdoc.com/blog

My Flickr Photostream Slideshow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33755787@N03/show/

My Images at Photo.net
http://photo.net/photos/esfishdoc

 

[Asylum Photo]

Currently I turned on Highlight Tone Priority and Auto Lighting Optimizer, but I'm unsure if either directly effects the raw files.

HTP does affect RAW but it eats into your RAW headroom (and Adobe products don't treat files with HTP enabled correctly). ALO doesn't have an immediate effect on the RAW file but leads to differences perception by the user which again make the files less suitable for RAW editing.

Could you expand on ACR not handling HTP correctly? I assumed it'd just be "under exposed" by a stop in ACR and I'd have to recover the shadows manually (similar to how the DR settings work on the Fuji side).

 

[Asylum Photo]

I just want to clarify that I understand exposure is key. I'm talking about getting the best DR in a correctly exposed image.

My exposure compensation question stems from using a variety of cameras over the years, that exposing a difficult scene "correctly" with 0 exposure compensation could result in blown highlights, vs exposing correctly and setting exposure compensation lower could result in ok highlights and you have more room to recover shadows in post. (This was a problem on my 400D and XP1, not as much on my X100 and 300D, it varies from camera to camera in my experience).

Av and Auto ISO are more of a walk around option to get the best "catch all" in quick situations. I find that modern image quality is pretty decent at a variety of ISOs, and it's nice to be able to focus on the scene.

I tend to set things manually when I have time to sit and do so, and have plenty of experience with bracketing and HDR. This is more of a "quick and dirty" general set up.
--
http://asylum-photo.com

 

[ESfishdoc]

Got it....

I just want to clarify that I understand exposure is key. I'm talking about getting the best DR in a correctly exposed image.

My exposure compensation question stems from using a variety of cameras over the years, that exposing a difficult scene "correctly" with 0 exposure compensation could result in blown highlights, vs exposing correctly and setting exposure compensation lower could result in ok highlights and you have more room to recover shadows in post. (This was a problem on my 400D and XP1, not as much on my X100 and 300D, it varies from camera to camera in my experience).

Av and Auto ISO are more of a walk around option to get the best "catch all" in quick situations. I find that modern image quality is pretty decent at a variety of ISOs, and it's nice to be able to focus on the scene.

I tend to set things manually when I have time to sit and do so, and have plenty of experience with bracketing and HDR. This is more of a "quick and dirty" general set up.
--
http://asylum-photo.com

--
http://esfishdoc.com/blog

My Flickr Photostream Slideshow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33755787@N03/show/

My Images at Photo.net
http://photo.net/photos/esfishdoc

 

[Jeff Peterman]

Wrong, HTP does have an immediate effect on the RAW files as it is implemented on the level of the signal amplification.

That's why I said "pretty sure." I wasn't certain about HTP, because I know it takes the shot as one stop under exposure and then boosts all but the highlights by one stop (which is why ISO 100 isn't available).
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25
http://www.jeffp25.smugmug.com

 

[R2D2]

exposing a difficult scene "correctly" with 0 exposure compensation could result in blown highlights

That can happen when you expose for your main subject. You may indeed lose detail in some highlights, or conversely, detail in some shadows.

vs exposing correctly and setting exposure compensation lower could result in ok highlights

But your main subject would become underexposed, correct? And your shadows even moreso.

and you have more room to recover shadows in post.

This seems kinda backwards to me. If you underexpose, then you'll be losing even more detail in the shadows (meaning less room to recover shadows). Or did you mean something different?

(This was a problem on my 400D and XP1, not as much on my X100 and 300D, it varies from camera to camera in my experience).

It may be because you had things backwards?

Av and Auto ISO are more of a walk around option to get the best "catch all" in quick situations.

To obtain the most detail (and dynamic range) in your images, personally I'd recommend "Exposing the the Right." Push your highlights up as far as they can go (the opposite of what you're doing). To the point just before losing detail in the (important) highlights. Then you can adjust your entire exposure curve any way you wish in Post, and thus be assured of retaining as much detail as possible from all parts of the scene.

I find that modern image quality is pretty decent at a variety of ISOs, and it's nice to be able to focus on the scene.

That's nice to be able to do. However bear in mind that the convenience of Auto this and Auto that lies diametrically opposite of the results you are attempting to achieve (ie perfect exposure).

Best of luck,
R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

 

[R2D2]

+1

A couple of general things I believe to be true.

There is nothing that takes the place of a near perfect exposure.

When I need or want that perfect exposure I use my Sekonic L-358. When working with the right exposure I've never felt limited with the dynamic range of the 7D or 5DMkII.

When working with an image that clearly exceeds the dynamic range of the camera and I want detail in the shadow and highlights I bracket multiple images on a tripod and use layers and masks in photoshop to use the pieces from multiple images.

Near perfect exposures are rarely found with AV. Many times the exposure is quite adequate... but rarely near perfect.

I avoid auto iso like the plague.... actually I've avoided the plague all my life but I've tried auto iso to find out I don't like it and most will never use it.

I won't comment on HTP as I don't use it and have never felt a need for it or to even experiment with it.

Richard

--
http://esfishdoc.com/blog

My Flickr Photostream Slideshow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33755787@N03/show/

My Images at Photo.net
http://photo.net/photos/esfishdoc

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

 

[Sailor Blue]

You will get the best and dynamic range if you expose the image properly. Things like auto lighting optimizer and highlight tone priority are simply gimmicks for those people who don't know how to get proper exposures.

If you want to get the best possible images then shoot at ISO 100 and take the time to learn what Exposing to the Right is is all about. Here is a link to my user article on my variation of ETTR.

http://www.dpreview.com/...ose-to-the-right-using-the-cameras-highlight-alert

Once you have an image with the widest possible dynamic range it is time to make the image look even better. I know of no software better at this than Lightroom 4. The exposure adjustment controls in the Develop module allow you to do some simply amazing things without ever having to bother with curves adjustments.

With the Adjustment brush you can even make adjustments to selected portions of the image. This means that you can do things like make exposure changes in selected areas or apply noise reduction to the shadow areas without applying noise reduction to the other tones in the image where it isn't needed.

If you still don't have enough dynamic range in a single exposure then look into HDR. If done correctly, it is almost impossible to tell that a HDR image is a HDR image.

Another option is that you can export bracketed images into Photoshop, where they can be combined into a single 32-bit image and returned to Lightroom 4. This exposure controls in the Develop module can then be used on this 32-bit image, producing a image with amazing details in the shadows and highlights without the image taking on a fake HDR quality.

 

[TTMartin]

HTP does actually increase the dynamic range, which was the OPs question.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos7d/17

I agree properly expose the image and use blinkies to insure nothing important is blown out.

 

[KariP]

like this - if i want the best possible and usable DR :

ISO 200 or 400 , RAW , HTP enabled (works with RAW too)

Exposure is the trick IMO - i use the blinking overexposure warning to check the exposure. The very brightest/white areas can partially blink as a warning - with software (like Apertures highlight rescue ) it is possible to rescue small "blown out" areas and it is also possible to adjust the deeper shadows so that the image is almost like a HDR image - practical DR is quite wide.
--
Kari
SLR photography started in 1968, 40D since 2007, and now 7D !
60.21 N 24.86 E

 

[mmullen]

I'm working with ACR7.1 as my raw editor. Currently I turned on Highlight Tone Priority and Auto Lighting Optimizer, but I'm unsure if either directly effects the raw files.

Wow! That's probably your problem (ALO turned on). I prefer DPP so I'm not sure how ACR treats ALO but, according to Carl, it's not right. Even in DPP ALO will reduce highlight headroom of some shots (it depends upon the histogram of each shot).

I have excellent results not worrying about a separate light meter, I treat the lens/sensor as the most accurate light meter possible. For this to work the camera needs to be setup properly. Then I use the blinkies to meter. I generally shoot in manual mode (unless the light levels are variable and the action is fast and furious). The auto mode most likely to nail exposure with the least amount of fiddling with exposure compensation is evaluative. But in most cases it's just as easy to adjust exposure manually. That way the exposure will not vary unexpected shot to shot depending upon the framing or zoom).

Using the blinkies:

ALO off
HTP off
Picture Style Neutral
Contrast 0

Saturation (I generally use Saturation of 1 because I know I will (more often than not) want this much during conversion. That's because the neutral picture style starts out as quite bland. But shooting RAW it doesn't matter.
Set aperture and shutter speed to 1/3 stop increments.

Sharpness-2 I think one could argue sharpness should be set to zero for purposes of exposure but the areas affected are so small I'm not sure it matters. I like a setting of 2 because it helps me judge sharpness from the back screen better.

Set the exposure you think you need. You can guess or meter. Take an image of scene. Look at screen that shows blinkies. I generally want no blinkies but will allow very small areas of blinkies if the scene has high dynamic range and I would rather retain shadow detail than the small highlights. Always expose as far to the right as possible without blowing large areas you wish to retain. Do not worry if the image looks washed out on the back screen, that's fine as long as you don't have blinkies where you don't want them. This is what tone curve adjustments, saturation, etc. are for during post processing. The idea is to capture as much RAW data as possible and the best way to do that is to use as much of the high end as possible. Don't make the mistake of reducing exposure to get more saturation. When shooting RAW your saturation will come back when you adjust the tone curve for the scene and you will retain much more shadow detail with less noise to deal with.

With practice you will learn exactly how much you need to dial the exposure back from the blinkies. If there are no strong highlights and dynamic range is low I might dial back 2/3-1 stop from blinkies just be sure. If scene is extra high contrast and I need all the DR I can get, I leave a few small blinkies (for example when a piece of chrome is reflecting the sun).

Should I drop exposure compensation a stop, and recover shadows in post? Or will that result in loss of image quality that outweighs unrecoverable highlights?

The highlights will not be unrecoverable if the camera is setup neutral and there are no blinkies. Also, shoot at the lowest ISO possible.

These general rules work well for me but this is all from memory and I may have left out some details of settings that need to be zeroed or turned off.

--
Mike Mullen