10D focus issue Not the same old thread...

[Negative287]

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

 

[Wm. Bates]

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

I think it is a Karma thing. It must be, seems some people are unlucky over and over again when it comes to Canon 10D. I'm lucky no problems so far. thanking the Canon Gods.
--
Bill
http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't'

 

[Bashan]

Pete:

I can't speak to the 10D issue. But I can speak to the recent lens issues.. The backfocussing lenses perform the same on the D30, D60 and Rebel. Older lenses that were tried worked OK. This was confirmed by the dealer and Canon rep. I worked with.

So.. lets say the 10D focus issue is confined to a few bodies, only. Those owners mention the problem. Other owners of 10D's that have good bodies but defective lenses repeat the tests and blame the bodies, because that's the problem they heard about - its hard to tell the difference, isn't it?

Fewer D60 and D30 owners complain, because, on the average, have purchased their main stable of lenses already. And there are much fewer D60s and D30s than 10Ds in circulation. So fewer complaints. Again, the statistics SEEM to point to the 10D, but really don't.

Then why aren't the 1D and 1Ds folks complaining? Two possibilities present themselves. First, these is much less 1D and 1Ds product to buy lenses for, hence less opportunity to get defective product. And... many 1Ds users have a close professional working relationship with Canon and are best off quietly having their problems fixed with a 2-hour turnaround, rather than jeopardize their position.

Of course, we're constructing theories in a near vacuum. Canon really has the statistics and resources to figure out the problem and fix it. And I hope they do, soon.

Bashan

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
Brian...

 

[Negative287]

So are you saying that a percentage could be the camera and others could just be the lens issue?

I can't speak to the 10D issue. But I can speak to the recent lens
issues.. The backfocussing lenses perform the same on the D30, D60
and Rebel. Older lenses that were tried worked OK. This was
confirmed by the dealer and Canon rep. I worked with.

So.. lets say the 10D focus issue is confined to a few bodies,
only. Those owners mention the problem. Other owners of 10D's
that have good bodies but defective lenses repeat the tests and
blame the bodies, because that's the problem they heard about - its
hard to tell the difference, isn't it?

Fewer D60 and D30 owners complain, because, on the average, have
purchased their main stable of lenses already. And there are much
fewer D60s and D30s than 10Ds in circulation. So fewer complaints.
Again, the statistics SEEM to point to the 10D, but really don't.

Then why aren't the 1D and 1Ds folks complaining? Two
possibilities present themselves. First, these is much less 1D and
1Ds product to buy lenses for, hence less opportunity to get
defective product. And... many 1Ds users have a close professional
working relationship with Canon and are best off quietly having
their problems fixed with a 2-hour turnaround, rather than
jeopardize their position.

Of course, we're constructing theories in a near vacuum. Canon
really has the statistics and resources to figure out the problem
and fix it. And I hope they do, soon.

Bashan

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
Brian...

 

[DavidP #28649]

Both the camera AND the lenses have tolerances in them.

If a lens and camera both have a tolerance that goes in the same direction, the resulting combination can be far out of spec.

But if the camera and lens are both at the extreme ends of the tolerance ranges, but in the opposite directions, they may work perfeclty together.

Then, if you get only the camera fixed, a lens that was working perfectly before may now show problems.

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

 

[Diane B]

So are you saying that a percentage could be the camera and others
could just be the lens issue?

but this has been my very VERY unscientific thought all along. Easy for me to say, since I shoot with a D60--and a bit with a D30 (as I suppose everyone knows by now LOL--with a nice group of lenses, all of which display AF within good tolerances). However, in the future, I will most likely end up with something in this family--if not the hoped for 3D family. At one time I thought the 1D family, but I honestly don't need all its capabilities, so I've backed off from that a bit--wanting a bit more resolution but staying with 'at least' the flexibility of the D60 and certainly that of the 10D. So--I watch this carefully--and think about it and how forums work having been on the net and involved in various types of forums for many years (computer life type years--say before WWW was much more than a glint in someone's eye). David's post below seems close to the mark I suspect.

Diane
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me

 

[Negative287]

So does that mean you can rule out a physical build defect? And what else does that say about the setup? Does this mean when the D5 comes out you're going to have to have your lenses recalibrated for that camera as well?

If a lens and camera both have a tolerance that goes in the same
direction, the resulting combination can be far out of spec.

But if the camera and lens are both at the extreme ends of the
tolerance ranges, but in the opposite directions, they may work
perfeclty together.

Then, if you get only the camera fixed, a lens that was working
perfectly before may now show problems.

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

 

[Bashan]

Pete:

An undefined percentage of 10D problems are, without a doubt, lens problems. Most owners do not have the resources to accurately diagnose which IS the problem - maybe why Canon likes to get both lens and body back for servicing.

As for calibration errors adding up between lens and camera to create a bad situation, that should not happen. Not because its impossible -in fact it IS possible - with a bad set of designs or poor specifications.

Every engineer with half a brain (or more) has performed something called "Worst-Case Analysis". WCA is performed to ensure that over intended design life and environment (Temp., humidity, power supply voltage, etc.) components of a design, like camera bodies and lenses, always work together in a perdictable way. Gentlemen, this is Engineering, not art. How to do it is well known. Canon DOES have a fundamental set of system and item specifications, plus standards to ensure delivery of products meeting these. The question is, are they following them? Is there an out-of-spec manufacturing problem, perhaps caused by bad test software coefficients? I don't know. Only Canon can really get to the bottom of this - and maybe even they do not understand the problem. Canon is a large company. many people have to communicate. Some don't want to. Especially tricky if a lot of bad product has been shipped. Consider Firestone tires on Ford cars. Both manufacturers were reluctant to disclose issues.

Bashan

I can't speak to the 10D issue. But I can speak to the recent lens
issues.. The backfocussing lenses perform the same on the D30, D60
and Rebel. Older lenses that were tried worked OK. This was
confirmed by the dealer and Canon rep. I worked with.

So.. lets say the 10D focus issue is confined to a few bodies,
only. Those owners mention the problem. Other owners of 10D's
that have good bodies but defective lenses repeat the tests and
blame the bodies, because that's the problem they heard about - its
hard to tell the difference, isn't it?

Fewer D60 and D30 owners complain, because, on the average, have
purchased their main stable of lenses already. And there are much
fewer D60s and D30s than 10Ds in circulation. So fewer complaints.
Again, the statistics SEEM to point to the 10D, but really don't.

Then why aren't the 1D and 1Ds folks complaining? Two
possibilities present themselves. First, these is much less 1D and
1Ds product to buy lenses for, hence less opportunity to get
defective product. And... many 1Ds users have a close professional
working relationship with Canon and are best off quietly having
their problems fixed with a 2-hour turnaround, rather than
jeopardize their position.

Of course, we're constructing theories in a near vacuum. Canon
really has the statistics and resources to figure out the problem
and fix it. And I hope they do, soon.

Bashan

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
Brian...

--
Brian...

 

[abqnm]

the problem is the human at the controls

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

 

[Frank Nichols]

Bashan,

I agree that with a WCA the cumulative error should not exceed spec. However, Chuck W has indicated (said) that the 10D has an "internal database of lens types" which must be adjusted on some 10D's to achieve reliable interchangability with most/all lenses.

To me, this implies (I am not stating fact or even a reasonable theory) that in thier design trade-off's the engineers decided that it was in Canon's best interest (probably a financial decision - we have all been there!) to not have a worst case design in all possible cases, and to allow the service center to tweak a 'few" out of spec Camera/Lens combinations. More than likely this is a body issue and not a lens issue, since they have repeated stated that after sending in your lens it will continue to work correctly with other bodies. So, the adjustment to the 10D (in this case I am refering to the lens type database tweaking) would seem to be to correct an out of spec condition with that individual body.

Frank

An undefined percentage of 10D problems are, without a doubt, lens
problems. Most owners do not have the resources to accurately
diagnose which IS the problem - maybe why Canon likes to get both
lens and body back for servicing.

As for calibration errors adding up between lens and camera to
create a bad situation, that should not happen. Not because its
impossible -in fact it IS possible - with a bad set of designs or
poor specifications.

Every engineer with half a brain (or more) has performed something
called "Worst-Case Analysis". WCA is performed to ensure that over
intended design life and environment (Temp., humidity, power supply
voltage, etc.) components of a design, like camera bodies and
lenses, always work together in a perdictable way. Gentlemen, this
is Engineering, not art. How to do it is well known. Canon DOES
have a fundamental set of system and item specifications, plus
standards to ensure delivery of products meeting these. The
question is, are they following them? Is there an out-of-spec
manufacturing problem, perhaps caused by bad test software
coefficients? I don't know. Only Canon can really get to the
bottom of this - and maybe even they do not understand the problem.
Canon is a large company. many people have to communicate. Some
don't want to. Especially tricky if a lot of bad product has been
shipped. Consider Firestone tires on Ford cars. Both
manufacturers were reluctant to disclose issues.

Bashan

I can't speak to the 10D issue. But I can speak to the recent lens
issues.. The backfocussing lenses perform the same on the D30, D60
and Rebel. Older lenses that were tried worked OK. This was
confirmed by the dealer and Canon rep. I worked with.

So.. lets say the 10D focus issue is confined to a few bodies,
only. Those owners mention the problem. Other owners of 10D's
that have good bodies but defective lenses repeat the tests and
blame the bodies, because that's the problem they heard about - its
hard to tell the difference, isn't it?

Fewer D60 and D30 owners complain, because, on the average, have
purchased their main stable of lenses already. And there are much
fewer D60s and D30s than 10Ds in circulation. So fewer complaints.
Again, the statistics SEEM to point to the 10D, but really don't.

Then why aren't the 1D and 1Ds folks complaining? Two
possibilities present themselves. First, these is much less 1D and
1Ds product to buy lenses for, hence less opportunity to get
defective product. And... many 1Ds users have a close professional
working relationship with Canon and are best off quietly having
their problems fixed with a 2-hour turnaround, rather than
jeopardize their position.

Of course, we're constructing theories in a near vacuum. Canon
really has the statistics and resources to figure out the problem
and fix it. And I hope they do, soon.

Bashan

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
Brian...

--
Brian...

--
Someday I will take a good photograph - until then I will blame my equipment.

 

[Frank Nichols]

Pete,

Neither case:

It is possible that some 10D's are built out of spec. In any mass production of complex equipment some are going to be out of spec and get past QC. Not a big deal as long as customer service handles it to the customers satisfaction, which Canon seems to be doing.

This should not mean that lens will need to be calibrated again when you change bodies. Chuck W has repeatedly stated (and it makes sense from a business point of view) that once a lens is calibrated to within spec it will work on any body which is also calibrated to within spec.

See my post above concerning worst case design, but to summarize. the 10D has a database internally which the service center can tweak. the database is "confidential", but Chuck W has indicated it is based on lens types and is used to tweak in the calibration when both the camera and lens are within spec, and still mis-focusing occurs. This implies to me that there is some design detail which does not pass worst case spec's in all lens body combinations, and on an individual body (10D) there is some chance it will need to be adjusted. Once adjusted then that body should work correctly and the lenes should be interchangable with your other Canon bodies.

Frank

If a lens and camera both have a tolerance that goes in the same
direction, the resulting combination can be far out of spec.

But if the camera and lens are both at the extreme ends of the
tolerance ranges, but in the opposite directions, they may work
perfeclty together.

Then, if you get only the camera fixed, a lens that was working
perfectly before may now show problems.

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

--
Someday I will take a good photograph - until then I will blame my equipment.

 

[Frank Nichols]

and interupting a reasonable mature conversation.

Frank

I've been thinking about this (as I sit and stair at a decent price
used 10D) and something occured to me...

If it is the camera that's misfocusing why aren't all lenses having
this issue? If the CCD were out of alignment or even the frame
holding the focus motor in place wouldn't every lens be subject to
such failure?

Now some have taken the lens off of a 10D that wasn't focusing
correctly and attached it to a 10D that was known to be focusing
correctly and the two worked what does that really say about the
focusing issue?

Is it an incompatibility somewhere in firmware? Seriously, why is
it that blaming either of the above doesn't fit 100%? And please
before you rule this out remember you can't upgrade the firmware of
the lens at home so you would have to send it back... But then why
would Canon need both the affected lens or lenses and the camera to
fix this issue?

Anyone have any insight on this issue?

--
Someday I will take a good photograph - until then I will blame my equipment.

 

[DavidP #28649]

Do you have a link to where Chuck stated this? I've seen people repeat this, but haven't seen the actual thread.

And is this true of other bodies, as well?

What a kludgy system. This means that for great focus, you need to tweak your body for every lens you buy? What brainiac thought of THAT?

It is possible that some 10D's are built out of spec. In any mass
production of complex equipment some are going to be out of spec
and get past QC. Not a big deal as long as customer service handles
it to the customers satisfaction, which Canon seems to be doing.

This should not mean that lens will need to be calibrated again
when you change bodies. Chuck W has repeatedly stated (and it makes
sense from a business point of view) that once a lens is calibrated
to within spec it will work on any body which is also calibrated to
within spec.

See my post above concerning worst case design, but to summarize.
the 10D has a database internally which the service center can
tweak. the database is "confidential", but Chuck W has indicated it
is based on lens types and is used to tweak in the calibration when
both the camera and lens are within spec, and still mis-focusing
occurs. This implies to me that there is some design detail which
does not pass worst case spec's in all lens body combinations, and
on an individual body (10D) there is some chance it will need to be
adjusted. Once adjusted then that body should work correctly and
the lenes should be interchangable with your other Canon bodies.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers