Raw vs. Jpeg, I don't see a difference

.NEF files are 16bit images. .jpg files are 8. 8 bit images allow for only 256 shades of grey per plate. 16bit (NEF) images are a multiple higher. With 16bit images you're supposed to be able to enlarge images higher than with 8 bit. Haven't proven this personally but it seems sound.
mc
if it's properly converted, that is ;c) I've seen test after test,
after test, and it's been proven many times over that a converted
NEF file is the better, cleaner, crisper file. But when they are
viewed web sized, it is hard to tell the difference.
--
Steve S
http://www.pbase.com/sshyone
 
Wow!!! How did you do that!?!

Cassandra
I only shoot NEF because it is a true "negative" and has the most
potential for high quality output. JPEG's cannot be worked like an
NEF. I'm not talking fixing a bad shot; I'm talking getting a good
shot to "pop".

Here's my out of the box shot:



Here's the NEF tweaked in NC 4.1 and sharpened/resized in PS CS:



If I only had a jpeg I'd never get that final image.

--
Joe M.
--
http://www.pbase.com/cassandra/nikon_d70

 
Steven S wrote:
Wow, Steve! You pulled a lot of info out of that dark beak and face!
That was good.
rquick
 
Could you possibly explain your workflow for this proccess, and is this one much different then other nef's you have done?
I only shoot NEF because it is a true "negative" and has the most
potential for high quality output. JPEG's cannot be worked like an
NEF. I'm not talking fixing a bad shot; I'm talking getting a good
shot to "pop".

Here's my out of the box shot:



Here's the NEF tweaked in NC 4.1 and sharpened/resized in PS CS:



If I only had a jpeg I'd never get that final image.

--
Joe M.
--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
 
Learning a lot from this forumand thread-thanks.
I only shoot NEF because it is a true "negative" and has the most
potential for high quality output. JPEG's cannot be worked like an
NEF. I'm not talking fixing a bad shot; I'm talking getting a good
shot to "pop".

Here's my out of the box shot:



Here's the NEF tweaked in NC 4.1 and sharpened/resized in PS CS:



If I only had a jpeg I'd never get that final image.

--
Joe M.
--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
 
The RAW file is the actual data that is copied from the CCD sensor. There is no conversion to RGB color or any other modifications made. The camera settings (color space, image enhancement, white balance etc.) are stored with the NEF file but not implemented. When Capture loads the raw data it makes the modification based on what the camera settings were. When you make changes, it works with the raw data, not the modified file. These changes as well as the original changes are store with the file when you save it. You can always revert to the original settings. If you wish to retain different curve modifications, you can also save the curves before you change them and call them back later.

If you simply load a nef file from the camera and save it as a jpg, you get no advantage over using jpg to start with. The advantage is in being able modify the output without changing the original data

Because you are working with the original data, you have more latitude in correcting tone curves, exposure, color balance etc. Your changes are none destructive and you can go back and modify them at any time in the future. There is no need to save under alternate names after each modification.
Some people in this forum have said the Raw is so much sharper then
jpeg.

After reading Phils review, and Ken Rockwells article,
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/raw.htm
I decided to do a side by side comparison. In my eyes, I don't see
any difference in sharpness. In fact, I see a bit more noise in the
Raw that I don't see in the Jpeg.

I didn't save any of the images for posting, plus after converting
the NEF's to jpeg for web viewing that would defeat the purpose of
the test.

I realize the main reason for raw is more for accurate white
balance and exposure tweaking after the fact, but I believe if you
spend a little more time while shooting to meter the seen correctly
and obtain the correct white balance(even the cameras auto is
pretty damn close), then you really don't need to use raw as your
primary shooting mode.

I some instances where you have a very wide array of Lights to
darks in a single scene, or a more then a single type of light
source (i.e. Day light combined with incandescent) Raw might make
post processing easier.

I have a 1 Gig card, If I shoot Raw It will hold 95, in Jpeg fine
mode it will hold 293. I have decided to shoot mainly in Jpeg fine
for most situations and switch to Raw only when I feel the picture
will need extensive post processing.

--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
 
Joe,

I too, am new to being able to use RAW format. Definitely opens up some new doors to photo manipulation. However, one could manipulate Jpegs in Photoshop to basically get the same results as in Nikon Capture with NEF photos. In fact, I tried with the photo of the girl and with just some levels work, came out to almost exactly the same results you did. Now I wouldn't do that with the original, only a duplicate. So, I have to admit I am confused when you say jpeg's can't be worked on. They definitely can be. One thing that does worry me about the NEF format is that it is propriety to Nikon. From a archival standpoint, is saving a NEF format the best way to go? How do we know in 10 years there will be software available to open those files. At least with jpeg, I am somewhat confident they are so universaly used, that they will be able to opened in the future.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
Ken
I only shoot NEF because it is a true "negative" and has the most
potential for high quality output. JPEG's cannot be worked like an
NEF. I'm not talking fixing a bad shot; I'm talking getting a good
shot to "pop".

Here's my out of the box shot:



Here's the NEF tweaked in NC 4.1 and sharpened/resized in PS CS:



If I only had a jpeg I'd never get that final image.

--
Joe M.
 
Could you possibly explain your workflow for this proccess, and is
this one much different then other nef's you have done?
First I should tell you that my workflow with this and my other softball images from the same day is different than my previous workflow (i.e., faster, more consistent, and overall better). I'm finally putting together the concepts in Reznick's eBook with other stuff I've learned here and at fredmiranda.com and getting final output that really looks the way I want it to look (saturated & sharp - with a "pop" that's pleasing to me).

Here's how I processed that image.

-Opened in NC 4.1.

-Used a point on her upper left thigh (grey pants) to set custom WB (tried the "F" on her helmet first but the result was too yellow/orange).

-Found my "black point" and set a reference point (for this image it's the dark spot on the helmet above her left eye and over her left ear). Remember, black point isn't always black it's the dark spot in the image.

-Used that reference point to adjust the black point for each channel individually using curves (drop down on the top line of curves allows individual selection of R-G-B vs. the default where they're combined). The activity involves sliding the left-most triangle of the curve to the right thereby INCREASING the number for black point then moving the middle triangle (gamma) back to the mid point of the graph to correct gamma (the curve graph represents image color levels from 0-255 with 128 being middle).

-Once photo is balanced with curves I adjust the RBG gamma for the entire image (slide the middle triangle on the bottom of the curve to the LEFT until the gamma is corrected - reasonable range is between 1.00 and 1.20 and involves some technique that I'm still learning but usually get decent results between 1.05 and 1.15 even without fully grasping the concept)

I then click the Photoshop icon to open in PS CS:

-In PS I use fred miranda's Nikon Custom Sharpen Pro ($20 plug-in that is the best sharpening for the $$$)
-I save the TIFF here for printing since this is my print output

-I then use fred miranda's WP Pro which down sizes for web (you set dimensions) without losing sharpness

-I then run fred miranda's frames action to create the matted frame you see in this thread
-Finally I type my name and copyright then save as a jpeg to upload on pbase

Keep in mind that it took 5 times as long to type this than to actually do it in NC and PS. :) NC takes 2-3 minutes and PS 2 minute. It will be even quicker once I develop some actions in PS to combine my steps.

Hope this helps.

--
Joe M.
 
I copied this into word and am printing it so I can study it and learn.

I really appreciate your time for explaining this out.

--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
 
The title says it all. I'm going to give this a shot very, very soon.

Joe Marques wrote:
--
*****
Eric K
{D 7 0 + lenses, F - 7 1 7, N 8 0, S 2 1 0, E - 1 0, C P 9 5 0}
 
--
Joe M.
 
There is a fundamental difference between NEFs and JPGs - the NEF still has full 12 bit data whereas JPG has been rerduced to 8 bit - then there is also the JPG compression loss of information that (even in fine) cannot be retrieved.

Of course JPG is VERY good and in fine mode for most photos you won't see the loss of detail but it is still a possibility and my (subjective) opinion is that JPG does lose detail in yellow highlights at least (flowers).

Then the 12 bit data in NEF allows you to expand the range of say the shadow detail in a pic without it becoming blocky as it would on the 8 bit JPG. As many have said it's like being back in the darkroom days and being able to print on different types of paper etc.
I started shooting jpeg fine because that is what I was used to.
After reading the forum posts and some of the links, I have been
using NEF alone. I haven't been able to see a significant
difference yet, perhaps because my eye is untrained, but I do get
the idea of using RAW as an uncompressed "negative" that won't lose
quality by being opened and then compressed frequently.

What I haven't "gotten" yet, and would like to understand, is what
difference exists between post processing NEF's opposed to JPEG's.
I've been doing all types of post processing with jpegs, then
saving the changes and, I thought, leaving the original as it was.
Was something else happening? What can be done to NEF's that can't
be done with JPEG's?

Thanks!
rquick
 
You always have access to your original RAW data in NEF files doing a save in capture or nview will NOT change that. When you do a save, what you are doing is attaching a new header file that sets the onscreen rendering defaults.

So as long as you remember the shooting settings (actyually Capture records most of them and lists them in drop down options) then you can always get back to exactyly where you started
That way you don't permenently change your original file.
--
Steve S
http://www.pbase.com/sshyone
--
-marek

http://www.iso1600.neostrada.pl/
http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=14298
 
Ken,

I agree that there are inherent dangers to the RAW format. Because of these exact things, I currently take my RAW files and one of the first things I do is to batch process them to the highest quality JPEG I can, and store them in a separate directory.

I look at the photos in JPEG, and at that point I decide whether or not they need more work than the out-of-camera settings (which I continue to tweak to my liking). If they do, I go right back to the NEF file and start from there.

Basically it's the best of both worlds, IMHO. I have the original RAW/NEF data, but it's immediately batched and archived in JPEG, the more universal format. I'm currently trying to decide if I should batch them in TIFF instead, but I think that would be unnecessarily anal and add an extra step to my workflow. Most of my decent photos get put on my smugmug website, and for that they need to be JPEG ultimately.

For what it's worth, Phil mentioned in his review the superiority of using a computer to convert NEF to JPEG, rather than letting the camera do it. I was a bit skeptical of this claim until I ran the same tests myself. It does seem that the in-camera fine JPEG setting produces slightly inferior images to my using NC to batch process the images to JPEG. This is pretty subjective and very slight, it may or may not matter to you.

Anyway, back to your original question to ponder. I shoot RAW because it retains the greatest amount of detail and information image possible. I immediately batch to JPEG as a more useable (and accepted in 'the future') format, but retain the option to work on the full-info NEF if I would like.

Thanks for the disucssion, I'm enjoying this immensely.

-Eric K
Joe,

I too, am new to being able to use RAW format. Definitely opens up
some new doors to photo manipulation. However, one could manipulate
Jpegs in Photoshop to basically get the same results as in Nikon
Capture with NEF photos. In fact, I tried with the photo of the
girl and with just some levels work, came out to almost exactly the
same results you did. Now I wouldn't do that with the original,
only a duplicate. So, I have to admit I am confused when you say
jpeg's can't be worked on. They definitely can be. One thing that
does worry me about the NEF format is that it is propriety to
Nikon. From a archival standpoint, is saving a NEF format the best
way to go? How do we know in 10 years there will be software
available to open those files. At least with jpeg, I am somewhat
confident they are so universaly used, that they will be able to
opened in the future.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
Ken
--
*****
Eric K
{D 7 0 + lenses, F - 7 1 7, N 8 0, S 2 1 0, E - 1 0, C P 9 5 0}
 
I do agree about NEF being proprietary - but disagree rather about JPEG. Maybe I worry too much as I am a computer techie (of sorts) but JPEG loses something even at highest setting EVERY time you save. I just don't like that and I think (subjectively) that in particular the "best" JPEgs can still harm detail in highlight colour - specifically yelow stamens in a yellow flower in my case.

But I find to my horror that saving NEFs as TIF (apart from the extra workflow step) eats up memory (even in these cheap memory days) and selecting lossless compression in the TIF either makes the file bigger (!) - for LZW or not much change - ZIP. Probably these compression routines are optimised for 8 bit...

So I think we need a new independent 16 bit lossless compression format ideally.
I agree that there are inherent dangers to the RAW format. Because
of these exact things, I currently take my RAW files and one of the
first things I do is to batch process them to the highest quality
JPEG I can, and store them in a separate directory.

I look at the photos in JPEG, and at that point I decide whether or
not they need more work than the out-of-camera settings (which I
continue to tweak to my liking). If they do, I go right back to
the NEF file and start from there.

Basically it's the best of both worlds, IMHO. I have the original
RAW/NEF data, but it's immediately batched and archived in JPEG,
the more universal format. I'm currently trying to decide if I
should batch them in TIFF instead, but I think that would be
unnecessarily anal and add an extra step to my workflow. Most of
my decent photos get put on my smugmug website, and for that they
need to be JPEG ultimately.

For what it's worth, Phil mentioned in his review the superiority
of using a computer to convert NEF to JPEG, rather than letting the
camera do it. I was a bit skeptical of this claim until I ran the
same tests myself. It does seem that the in-camera fine JPEG
setting produces slightly inferior images to my using NC to batch
process the images to JPEG. This is pretty subjective and very
slight, it may or may not matter to you.

Anyway, back to your original question to ponder. I shoot RAW
because it retains the greatest amount of detail and information
image possible. I immediately batch to JPEG as a more useable (and
accepted in 'the future') format, but retain the option to work on
the full-info NEF if I would like.

Thanks for the disucssion, I'm enjoying this immensely.

-Eric K
Joe,

I too, am new to being able to use RAW format. Definitely opens up
some new doors to photo manipulation. However, one could manipulate
Jpegs in Photoshop to basically get the same results as in Nikon
Capture with NEF photos. In fact, I tried with the photo of the
girl and with just some levels work, came out to almost exactly the
same results you did. Now I wouldn't do that with the original,
only a duplicate. So, I have to admit I am confused when you say
jpeg's can't be worked on. They definitely can be. One thing that
does worry me about the NEF format is that it is propriety to
Nikon. From a archival standpoint, is saving a NEF format the best
way to go? How do we know in 10 years there will be software
available to open those files. At least with jpeg, I am somewhat
confident they are so universaly used, that they will be able to
opened in the future.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
Ken
--
*****
Eric K
{D 7 0 + lenses, F - 7 1 7, N 8 0, S 2 1 0, E - 1 0, C P 9 5 0}
 
If you simply load a nef file from the camera and save it as a jpg,
you get no advantage over using jpg to start with. The advantage
is in being able modify the output without changing the original
data
Because you are working with the original data, you have more
latitude in correcting tone curves, exposure, color balance etc.
Your changes are none destructive and you can go back and modify
them at any time in the future. There is no need to save under
alternate names after each modification.
Some people in this forum have said the Raw is so much sharper then
jpeg.

After reading Phils review, and Ken Rockwells article,
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/raw.htm
I decided to do a side by side comparison. In my eyes, I don't see
any difference in sharpness. In fact, I see a bit more noise in the
Raw that I don't see in the Jpeg.

I didn't save any of the images for posting, plus after converting
the NEF's to jpeg for web viewing that would defeat the purpose of
the test.

I realize the main reason for raw is more for accurate white
balance and exposure tweaking after the fact, but I believe if you
spend a little more time while shooting to meter the seen correctly
and obtain the correct white balance(even the cameras auto is
pretty damn close), then you really don't need to use raw as your
primary shooting mode.

I some instances where you have a very wide array of Lights to
darks in a single scene, or a more then a single type of light
source (i.e. Day light combined with incandescent) Raw might make
post processing easier.

I have a 1 Gig card, If I shoot Raw It will hold 95, in Jpeg fine
mode it will hold 293. I have decided to shoot mainly in Jpeg fine
for most situations and switch to Raw only when I feel the picture
will need extensive post processing.

--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
--Digital .. I never used Raw on the 5700 as ti took too much time but now with the D70 its so fast that I do take mostly in Raw , There is definitely a diffenerce , concerning sharpness at least,

However when taking events pictures , birthday parties , or political gathering s etc ,, I revery to jpegs -fine large , because i know the pictures will be 6x4 and amybe for newspaper publications (for office purposes) , but for more critical work , (not professional ) such as flowers , landscapes , etc when I would like to enlarge up to 16x12 , thats when you se the differnece and its great advantage when you can corrct exposure and sometimes even WB inPS .

BTW I for archiving i keep a copy of Raw , tiff -after processing , jpeg- with USM at 6x4 in case i'd like to print out pictures to stick on my walls and a jpeg 800x600 pixls at 100dpi compressed at 10 = sizr of 200kb jsut for running slides show on the monitor -ready for the web which i could place one day on pub one day .
All the best
avis
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top