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Raw vs. Jpeg, I don't see a difference

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digital-freak

digital-freak

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Some people in this forum have said the Raw is so much sharper then jpeg.

After reading Phils review, and Ken Rockwells article,
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/raw.htm

I decided to do a side by side comparison. In my eyes, I don't see any difference in sharpness. In fact, I see a bit more noise in the Raw that I don't see in the Jpeg.

I didn't save any of the images for posting, plus after converting the NEF's to jpeg for web viewing that would defeat the purpose of the test.

I realize the main reason for raw is more for accurate white balance and exposure tweaking after the fact, but I believe if you spend a little more time while shooting to meter the seen correctly and obtain the correct white balance(even the cameras auto is pretty damn close), then you really don't need to use raw as your primary shooting mode.

I some instances where you have a very wide array of Lights to darks in a single scene, or a more then a single type of light source (i.e. Day light combined with incandescent) Raw might make post processing easier.

I have a 1 Gig card, If I shoot Raw It will hold 95, in Jpeg fine mode it will hold 293. I have decided to shoot mainly in Jpeg fine for most situations and switch to Raw only when I feel the picture will need extensive post processing.

--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
 
My decision has been based on the fact that I do get all the post-processing options from RAW. When I'm uploading for the web or whatever, I usually just use the JPEGs that come out. However, if I screw up the WB or exposure, it's SO easy to fix in NC4, that it's worth it to me to have the NEFs on-hand.

I could get more JPEGs on my 2+ gigs of CF cards, but thus far I haven't needed the extra space and it's going wasted. So, I'll keep shooting both for the moment and burning out to DVD. It's been a good solution for me.

Anyone else have thoughts after they've been shooting with the D70 for a while?

-Eric K

*****
Eric K
{D 7 0 + lenses, F - 7 1 7, N 8 0, S 2 1 0, E - 1 0, C P 9 5 0}
 
I started shooting in RAW+Basic today, just to see if I could tell the difference. So far, I haven't shot enough for a definitive answer, but I believe that the jpegs converted from NEF are a little less noisy.

There is always the post-processing advantage that you mention as well. I'm going to continue, at least for a while in this mode, and then decide.

One thing worth considering is that great forum posters like Yves swear by RAW. Their results certainly speak volumes.

--
Frank Wilson
Huntsville, AL
http://flew.smugmug.com
Looking, listening, learning....
 
digital-freak said:
I have a 1 Gig card, If I shoot Raw It will hold 95, in Jpeg fine
mode it will hold 293. I have decided to shoot mainly in Jpeg fine
for most situations and switch to Raw only when I feel the picture
will need extensive post processing.
Click to expand...
If you are concerned about storage space on your 1 gig card then be advised that you will get close to 180 raw images on a 1 gig card, not 95. The counter does not reflect the actual number of compressed NEF images you can get on a CF card but the number of images if none were compressed. All will be compressed so a number around 180 is closer to the true number of images you will be able to get on a 1 gig card. I suspect this was an oversight on the part of the Nikon engineers as they probably used the counter from the D100 which did have uncompressed NEFs. Kind of makes raw more attractive.
CaseyJ
 
I started shooting jpeg fine because that is what I was used to. After reading the forum posts and some of the links, I have been using NEF alone. I haven't been able to see a significant difference yet, perhaps because my eye is untrained, but I do get the idea of using RAW as an uncompressed "negative" that won't lose quality by being opened and then compressed frequently.

What I haven't "gotten" yet, and would like to understand, is what difference exists between post processing NEF's opposed to JPEG's. I've been doing all types of post processing with jpegs, then saving the changes and, I thought, leaving the original as it was. Was something else happening? What can be done to NEF's that can't be done with JPEG's?

Thanks!
rquick
 
You are absolutely correct. If you save your original jpeg, then you haven't lost anything. The only problem with this is that the newly saved (modified) jpeg will usually be large (possibly as large as the original).

From what I understand, when you save changes to a NEF, you only save the changes themselves, in the form of a script. The original doesn't change, so you only have to keep one original, and the scripted changes. This saves disk space.

Hope this helps.
--
Frank Wilson
Huntsville, AL
http://flew.smugmug.com
Looking, listening, learning....
 
Thanks Frank! I remember hearing about the scripted changes saved from NEF now that you mention it. I can't get a visual on it though. Could the script be saved in a separate file or does it have to stay associated with the original NEF? Perhaps I should do a bit more studying on this issue.

And yes, processed jegs usually have a larger/much larger file than the originals! 'Course they are still smaller than the NEF.

Regards,
rquick
 
...I'm working on it. I've spent about three weeks refining my jpeg settings and they're getting much better. Even so, I've been doing side by side tests and there's always a difference; however, it's not always in the RAW image's favor.

I definitely get better "apparent" sharpness from the NEFs, and what appears to be a smoother tonal range. I can't prove it to anyone else, but it's what I see. When I make metering mistakes, the NEF always wins.

In any case, the more I shoot, the more I understand some advice another forumite gave me: I shoot mostly in jpeg, but when I'm really really concerned about the light or the shot, I shoot in RAW for the flexibility it gives in post-processing.

I'm having so much dang fun with this camera, now that I'm making some progress on the learning curve!

Keep shooting! DZ
 
rquick said:
What I haven't "gotten" yet, and would like to understand, is what
difference exists between post processing NEF's opposed to JPEG's.
I've been doing all types of post processing with jpegs, then
saving the changes and, I thought, leaving the original as it was.
Was something else happening? What can be done to NEF's that can't
be done with JPEG's?
Click to expand...
The difference between the jpeg and NEF for post processing is as follows: With the NEF, there is no processing that is hard coded in the file. So all the processing as actually happening afterwards. With the jpeg, all the camera settings are already processed into the picture. There is no problem there if you had all the settings exactly as you wanted them. However, (and this will be an extreme example) if you had the white balance set completely wrong, if you had the sharpening set to HIGH, if you had the contrast set to HIGH, if you mis-adjusted the HUE, etc, and you shot a JPEG. These settings will be very very difficult, if not impossible, to recover from. With the NEF, NONE of these settings are permanently coded. They are just sets of instructions that can be used (batch processing) or ignored. So you could in essence start from scratch in Nikon Capture.

Now, if all you need to do is some cropping, tweak the exposure through curves, convert to B&W, etc., but the settings were perfect to start with, then the Jpeg is fine.

I now have the D70, but with the S2, which I was previously using, I shot almost exclusively in jpeg as the RAW files are too big and the converter is just too darn cumbersome. And I did do quite a bit of editing with them, but couldn't fix gross miscalculations like a wrong white balance.

I hope this helps and happy shooting,

Freddy
 
I've been shooting in NEF almost since I first got my D70 and will probably continue to do so. But suppose I work on a NEF file and save the changes, then reopen the file, tweak it some more and then save it again. Later I decide I don't like the new version and want to revert back to the previous save. Is this possible?

Cassandra
flew said:
You are absolutely correct. If you save your original jpeg, then
you haven't lost anything. The only problem with this is that the
newly saved (modified) jpeg will usually be large (possibly as
large as the original).

From what I understand, when you save changes to a NEF, you only
save the changes themselves, in the form of a script. The original
doesn't change, so you only have to keep one original, and the
scripted changes. This saves disk space.

Hope this helps.
--
Frank Wilson
Huntsville, AL
http://flew.smugmug.com
Looking, listening, learning....
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/cassandra/nikon_d70

 
Freddy Rozentzvaig wrote:
 
That's the theory, but I'm certainly not an expert. Someone like Steven S can surely answer this question though. I'll post a new thread and see it we can get his attention.

--
Frank Wilson
Huntsville, AL
http://flew.smugmug.com
Looking, listening, learning....
 
With NEF files, as long as they're saved as NEF files will retain the ability to alter previous changes.

If for example you've worked the file on 4 occasions. And have altered the curves each time, you can't for example go back to the 2nd or third version of the file. You can however re-modify the file.

mc
flew said:
That's the theory, but I'm certainly not an expert. Someone like
Steven S can surely answer this question though. I'll post a new
thread and see it we can get his attention.

--
Frank Wilson
Huntsville, AL
http://flew.smugmug.com
Looking, listening, learning....
Click to expand...
 
Okay it works just like psd files then. Thanks for the clarification.

Cassandra
pixel-pusher said:
If for example you've worked the file on 4 occasions. And have
altered the curves each time, you can't for example go back to the
2nd or third version of the file. You can however re-modify the
file.

mc
flew said:
That's the theory, but I'm certainly not an expert. Someone like
Steven S can surely answer this question though. I'll post a new
thread and see it we can get his attention.

--
Frank Wilson
Huntsville, AL
http://flew.smugmug.com
Looking, listening, learning....
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/cassandra/nikon_d70

 
CaseyJ said:
digital-freak said:
I have a 1 Gig card, If I shoot Raw It will hold 95, in Jpeg fine
mode it will hold 293. I have decided to shoot mainly in Jpeg fine
for most situations and switch to Raw only when I feel the picture
will need extensive post processing.
Click to expand...
If you are concerned about storage space on your 1 gig card then be
advised that you will get close to 180 raw images on a 1 gig card,
not 95. The counter does not reflect the actual number of
compressed NEF images you can get on a CF card but the number of
images if none were compressed. All will be compressed so a number
around 180 is closer to the true number of images you will be able
to get on a 1 gig card. I suspect this was an oversight on the
part of the Nikon engineers as they probably used the counter from
the D100 which did have uncompressed NEFs. Kind of makes raw more
attractive.
CaseyJ
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info Casey, Once PC cs Raw 2 comes out I may shoot exclusvily raw

--
Mark
http://www.markmicallef.com (under construction)
 
I only shoot NEF because it is a true "negative" and has the most potential for high quality output. JPEG's cannot be worked like an NEF. I'm not talking fixing a bad shot; I'm talking getting a good shot to "pop".

Here's my out of the box shot:



Here's the NEF tweaked in NC 4.1 and sharpened/resized in PS CS:



If I only had a jpeg I'd never get that final image.

--
Joe M.
 
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