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Mark II not well received in Formula One

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Marco,

thank you SO much for posting this information. I wan't super happy with the reds on my first shoot with the Mark II. However, having had the 1D I was kind of used to it.

However, after setting my camera to the settings suggested below, everything came out great using AWB. (small example).


Marco Miltenburg said:
Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco
Click to expand...
 
Marco Miltenburg said:
Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco
Click to expand...
 
I don't doubt there is more and less going on. :). but for sure some issues for some people relate to shooting in sRGB. No question about that in my mind. Whether or not there are other things going on I'm not sure, but anyone with red problems shooting in sRGB should check the same shots in RGB. That much I'd suggest.
Ulysses said:
santa said:
clear that shooting in sRGB is NOT the solution.
Click to expand...
Santa, I doubt that sRGB in itself is really the problem here.

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
Click to expand...
--
Canon OneDeeMarque2,TenDee, 70-2hundred 2.8IS, 16-thirty5, 1hundred
-300 5.6EL, 28-70 f3.5- something, 50m f1point4, 1.4X convrtr, tc80EN3
 
Jim Dawson said:
gnuyork said:
Marco Miltenburg said:
Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Canon 1D, Pentax Optio 555, and G-III QL (yes - film)
Click to expand...
 
I went back and pulled down an original and chuckle, of course, it is in fact another sRGB image. Ulysses, if you haven't already, check out that coke can comparison I did. don't you think the red here, particularly on the top of the helmet, shows the kind of sRGB color shift that my example shows with the coke can? It may well be that the "real" color on the bike would not match either the Adobe or the sRGB version of the MKII, but as far as I'm concerned, until I see some real issue with similar Adobe examples, this is all just sRGB color space issues.
Ulysses said:
santa said:
clear that shooting in sRGB is NOT the solution.
Click to expand...
Santa, I doubt that sRGB in itself is really the problem here.

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
Click to expand...
--
Canon OneDeeMarque2,TenDee, 70-2hundred 2.8IS, 16-thirty5, 1hundred
-300 5.6EL, 28-70 f3.5- something, 50m f1point4, 1.4X convrtr, tc80EN3
 
Marco Miltenburg said:
Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco
Click to expand...
 
I don't consider myself an expert by any means, but I do teach the occassional Photoshop class and have done some specialized classes in Photoshop for Digital Photography. but all of Alaska is smaller than most large cities; I am a small fish in terms of Photoshop and don't want to sound like I'm "all that". With that said, I do know that sRGB is a smaller color space than Adobe. Additionally, Canon may create what they call and sRGB or Adobe RGB using proprietary algorithms so we don't really know what they are doing with that color space (at least I don't) but I can say from my limited experience with the MKII that if you take two pictures of a red object with it, one being in sRGB and the other in Adobe, the Adobe is much more apt to look closer to the real thing. If you blow them out, the sRGB is going to tend to blow pink/purple. The Adobe will blow more muted. I think it has a bit of an orange tinge but I have not bothered to look at them closely with they eyedropper tool. That could quantify some of this fwiw.

In just about every instance I've seen with this reported red problem, the images have been over exposed sRGB images. I can't say that was true 100% of the time but it seems so. I'm not at all confident the MKII handles blown reds well in either color space. I don't deny there may be a problem. I'm not sure if it is with the camera, the software, or if it really exists with the Adobe color space. My coke can over exposure with Adobe is something I could have lived with. I do think that the sRGB v Adobe is at the heart of many of these complaints. It may not be all there is to is, but I think it is the defining factor in at least some instances.
Ulysses said:
santa said:
I went back and pulled down an original and chuckle, of course, it
is in fact another sRGB image. Ulysses, if you haven't already,
check out that coke can comparison I did.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I missed the "Coke can" episode. You have a link to it?
Thanks! :-)

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
Click to expand...
--
Canon OneDeeMarque2,TenDee, 70-2hundred 2.8IS, 16-thirty5, 1hundred
-300 5.6EL, 28-70 f3.5- something, 50m f1point4, 1.4X convrtr, tc80EN3
 
absolutely. one of shortcomings of the color channels histogram is the very small size; it often means that a blown red is shown by a single pixel and it is often quite difficult for me to discern that. I've missed it more than once. Blown reds, and sRGB. Seriously bad combination. Solution? Expose correctly and shoot in Adobe. Bada boom, bada bing.
Leon Wittwer said:
For what it is worth, it is easy to blow out reds if you are using
the luminance histogram. Red does not have a lot of luminance and
can blow out while the luminance histogram looks ok. That may be
getting folks in trouble. Use the histograms of the color channels.
--
Leon
http://pws.prserv.net/lees_pics/landscapes.htm
Click to expand...
--
Canon OneDeeMarque2,TenDee, 70-2hundred 2.8IS, 16-thirty5, 1hundred
-300 5.6EL, 28-70 f3.5- something, 50m f1point4, 1.4X convrtr, tc80EN3
 
santa said:
I don't consider myself an expert by any means,
Click to expand...
Hey, santa. You don't have to worry about it, from where I sit. You've got my total respect. Honestly. You and I go way back, and know your work, too. When you talk, I listen. :-)

It's just that I'm not really yet convinced on this one.
santa said:
With that said, I do know that sRGB is a smaller color space than Adobe.
Click to expand...
While true, it's not that much smaller. And it's still a wider gamut than the capabilities of most printers including the Frontiers that produce the bulk of all the pictures most photographers are going to print.
santa said:
In just about every instance I've seen with this reported red
problem, the images have been over exposed sRGB images. I can't say
that was true 100% of the time but it seems so.
Click to expand...
And this sorta gets closer to where I think the real problem is. Most of the complaints are stemming from over-exposed images — BAD shots to begin with. I could see having a problem if we were talking about what ought to be "good" shots. But why use a "bad" shot as a baseline for this issue? Why aren't the guys starting out with well-exposed shots to begin with?
santa said:
I do think that the sRGB v Adobe is at the heart
of many of these complaints. It may not be all there is to is, but
I think it is the defining factor in at least some instances.
Click to expand...
I definitely don't rule out the behavior as being true. After all, the samples are there. I just wish we were talking more about whether the same happens when the exposure is a correct one. Maybe then I'd be more concerned about it.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this.

Your work in trying to decipher all of this is certainly appreciated, santa. :-)

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
santa said:
absolutely. one of shortcomings of the color channels histogram is
the very small size; it often means that a blown red is shown by a
single pixel and it is often quite difficult for me to discern
that. I've missed it more than once. Blown reds, and sRGB.
Seriously bad combination. Solution? Expose correctly and shoot in
Adobe. Bada boom, bada bing.
Click to expand...
I'm betting you could use the same analysis tools, shoot in sRGB, and still obtain fantastic results. I shoot in sRGB because that's what my lab requires at the end of the day. It's not worth it to me (for now, at least not yet) to do all the switching of profiles and cause potentially even worse issues before sending out to print. There's got to be a simpler way. :-)

--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
Well ... luminance is over 1/2 green but red is most
of the rest. (Blue is around 10 percent IIRC.) However,
using the luminance histogram can certainly be a problem,
especially considering that there are some very red and
orange subjects. I don't see many blown out reds on
my (Mk I) 1D but even at 1/3 or 2/3 stop underexposed
the camera has difficulties with fluorescent orange.

You would be very well advised to expose for the
color highlights though. I don't know whether the
histogram gives you RAW or scaled values. In the 1D
I think there is some headroom above the end of the
histogram, especially if you are using RAW. I am not
sure about the 1D Mk II. Maybe the 1D has a different
exposure/histogram implementation. Experience and
experimentation would teach you how to deal with
various situations involving highly saturated colors. I
really doubt it's the camera's fault per se.

It would be interesting if the metering system could
function in color, but that would probably confuse
more users (why is my photo with rich blue in it so dark?)
than it would help.

-joseph
Leon Wittwer said:
For what it is worth, it is easy to blow out reds if you are using
the luminance histogram. Red does not have a lot of luminance and
can blow out while the luminance histogram looks ok. That may be
getting folks in trouble. Use the histograms of the color channels.
Click to expand...
 
Ulysses said:
I'm betting you could use the same analysis tools, shoot in sRGB,
and still obtain fantastic results. I shoot in sRGB because that's
what my lab requires at the end of the day. It's not worth it to me
(for now, at least not yet) to do all the switching of profiles and
cause potentially even worse issues before sending out to print.
There's got to be a simpler way. :-)
Click to expand...
I'm afraid there's an extremely good possibility santa is dead on.

If you search this forum (or the old one), you might find a post by DavidP who (as I remember) made a small comparison adobe vs sRGB on a shot of his with saturated reds. As I recall he was able to save a lot by assigning the Adobe colorspace. And that was with the original 1D, so this issue is not limited to the Mark II.

Further more, if you use 16-bit thoughout your workflow and convert to sRGB (preferably the ICC of your printer...) and finally to 8-bit, you should end up preserving as many colours as possible (oh, you probably want to make sure you don't blow hilights on the printer as they have limits on their own).

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
Marco Miltenburg said:
I also posted some settings:
Marco Miltenburg said:
The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.
Click to expand...
I've used these settings and I'm very happy with it. I got several
mails from collegue photographers who asked for my settings because
they liked the colours and quality of the pictures very much. I
also got an e-mail from a picture editor from a big agency I work
for who complemented me for the quality of the shots. It were the
best Mark II shots he had seen so far. So, for the moment, I will
leave it like this. I use sRGB, sharpness 3 and auto white balance,
plus the above mentioned custom color matrix and parameters.

Grtz,
Marco
Click to expand...
 
But that's just one part of it, Rune. If your output is going to be 8-bit for your printing lab anyway, I'm not so sure that you're going to get any benefit by editing in 16-bit. I know some claim it, and I'm not really trying to debate it. But I haven't seen it. I do humbly acknowledge that just because I haven't seen it does not mean that it is not so. I'm still open.

Starting out with good exposure to begin with, customizing color profile in-camera if needed (some types of photography won't need it), and then reasonable calibration to your lab output should save the day and the pictures.
Rune Moberg said:
Further more, if you use 16-bit thoughout your workflow and convert
to sRGB (preferably the ICC of your printer...) and finally to
8-bit, you should end up preserving as many colours as possible
(oh, you probably want to make sure you don't blow hilights on the
printer as they have limits on their own).

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
The reds from this camera are terrible. They are so over saturated its not funny. I shot a race this weekend and the Hondas were all weird looking. I hope this gets fixed soon.
Marco Miltenburg said:
Report from a collegue in Barcelona, Spain

The Mark II has not been received very well in the world of Formula
One at this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix.

It's especially the colours that have caused a lot of uproar,
eventhough the sharpness is also a problem for most (being used to
the sharpness of the 1D). The camera is hardly able to capture the
red of the Ferrari's and also the yellow's of Jordan and Renault
looks very dull. I can only second that after shooting with it for
the first time last weekend, although the reds look better on my
CRT than on a LCD screen.

There was so much dissatisfaction, that Canon decided to flew in
somebody from Canon Europe. Yesterday, he collected a lot of RAW
files from many photographers which will all be send to Canon Japan
for analysis. Canon has a huge market share in F1 (around 80% I
think) and motorsport in general so they are determined to make
everybody happy again.

It seems that Canon has been very reserved in processing
out-of-the-camera JPEG's. The best settings found so far are to
setup a custom Color Matrix and custom parameters. Here's how to
set them.

The parameters and color matrix settigs are both under the first
menu. Select Set 1, 2 or 3 for parameters and choose Set Up to
change the parameters. Choose the set you selected and set the Tone
Curve to Standard, Sharpness to 2 or 3 (to your liking) and
Contrast to +1.

Go back to the first menu and choose Color Matrix. Select 6CM set1
or 7CM set2 and choose Set Up to change the settings of that Color
Matrix. Set it to color space sRGB or AdobeRGB (to your liking),
Saturation to Mid. High and Color tone to 0. You might want to
experiment with the Color tone to your liking. Some report that
setting it to 1 is better.

This is so far the setting which is though to give the best
results. For sure Canon will come up with a good solution, probably
in the form a firmware update which should at least fix the red's
and yellow's.

Grtz,
Marco
Click to expand...
 
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