I see people passing up good buys because of shutter count

.....and paying up for low shutter count. I don't worry about shutter count. I shoot almost exclusively with electronic shutter not mechanical with my R5.

I rarely use flash because wide apertures & higher iso generally do the job for what I mostly shoot.
I have also found that electronic shutter is not bad for the sports shots I do. I suppose I lose something in somes cenarios.

I am curious. How many of you use mechanical shutter a lot? Am I losing much?

Are you asking about bit depth?


A shot using EFCS with my R6II but a month ago I switched to ES. I think I missed a few key shots in a sequence of a bird diving into water. I was trying to avoid culling hundreds of extra files.

mangurian said:

.....and paying up for low shutter count. I don't worry about shutter count. I shoot almost exclusively with electronic shutter not mechanical with my R5.

I rarely use flash because wide apertures & higher iso generally do the job for what I mostly shoot.
I have also found that electronic shutter is not bad for the sports shots I do. I suppose I lose something in somes cenarios.

I am curious. How many of you use mechanical shutter a lot? Am I losing much?

Click to expand...

First, my first 1Dx had 180K on the clock and my 1Dxll had 200K! My R5 was a refurb and my R5ll was a highly discounted and brand new. most of my cameras have been used and most of my lenses as well!

I shoot everything including some sports and shoot it all in mechanical. I don't feel I have much need to use super high frame rate that would require ES. BUT I do shoot a lot of events and currently at least 80% is with flash and it would be kinda crazy to switch back and forth! I also ion occasion use either front or rear curtain so not sure that can even work in ES? IF you're not getting any meaningful distortion then I'm sure you're not missing anything!

John

mangurian said:

I am curious. How many of you use mechanical shutter a lot? Am I losing much?

Click to expand...

I do use the two mechanical modes quite a bit.

If I'm shooting flash, it'll be EFCS; there's no avoiding mechanical here with my R6 or R8, and I see no advantage to going full mechanical for how I'm shooting (usually stopped down).

If I'm shooting low ISO on a static shot, wide open and wanting the best dynamic range and the best bokeh, I'll go full mechanical on the R6. The benefits of doing this aren't always noticeable in practice, but photonstophotos tells me the DR advantage should be there and with a fast aperture the bokeh might just be that bit smoother as the shutter speed goes up. Of course the R8 doesn't give me full mechanical and won't give me more than 1/4000 in EFCS so I'll typically go ES just to let me get the higher shutter speed / faster aperture combo.

If I'm shooting indoors with articial light, I'm going to go EFCS just to get the flicker reduction.

For outdoors action though, I get way more keepers with ES; the AF performs better and of course I get more frames to choose from for the peak moment. That trumps everything else for me; there's no point worrying about slightly reduced DR if I didn't actually get the shot, and the DR advantage goes south as the ISO goes up anyway. That said, even with the R8 I have managed to get some bendy verticals, not often though!

Bottom line: with my shooting habits I would be one of those people shying away from a higher shutter count.

I'm almost never in full electronic shutter mode. For me, my camera will be technically outdated sooner than that the shutter will be worn out.

ES is my favourite since I've got the R5mk2 because now macro stacks using ETTL flash and RF 100/2.8 are now possible within a few seconds.

Zeee said:

Are you asking about bit depth?

https://photographylife.com/14-bit-vs-12-bit-raw

Click to expand...

That article is about Nikon D810.

In Canon cameras, going from 14 to 12 bits causes the loss of about 1.5 stops of dynamic range at ISO 100 setting

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R5,Canon EOS R5(ES)

The difference, however, becomes negligible at higher ISO values after 800-1200, depending on the camera.

In practice you get more noise in the shadows in the ES mode.

Zeee said:

A shot using EFCS with my R6II but a month ago I switched to ES. I think I missed a few key shots in a sequence of a bird diving into water. I was trying to avoid culling hundreds of extra files.

Click to expand...

ES has no advantages over EFCS in terms of the image quality - only disadvantages including slower rolling shutter. Btw, there's no shutter shock in EFCS (but there is in full Mechanical).

But ES enables a higher frame rate and it's silent and doesn't wear mechanical curtains.

--
https://www.instagram.com/quarkcharmed/
https://500px.com/quarkcharmed

Recently got an used R for casual use. 133k, don’t care about it really.

Quarkcharmed said:

Zeee said:

Are you asking about bit depth?

https://photographylife.com/14-bit-vs-12-bit-raw

Click to expand...

That article is about Nikon D810.

In Canon cameras, going from 14 to 12 bits causes the loss of about 1.5 stops of dynamic range at ISO 100 setting

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R5,Canon EOS R5(ES)

The difference, however, becomes negligible at higher ISO values after 800-1200, depending on the camera.

In practice you get more noise in the shadows in the ES mode.

Quarkcharmed said:

A shot using EFCS with my R6II but a month ago I switched to ES. I think I missed a few key shots in a sequence of a bird diving into water. I was trying to avoid culling hundreds of extra files.

Click to expand...

ES has no advantages over EFCS in terms of the image quality - only disadvantages including slower rolling shutter. Btw, there's no shutter shock in EFCS (but there is in full Mechanical).

But ES enables a higher frame rate and it's silent and doesn't wear mechanical curtains.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the excellent information. I should have been more clear. Now I'm set it up so I'm using ES with fast FPS for fast action. That is typically in good lighting. I left it at EFCS for the slower SS.

I set my R7 to full ES because I didn't like the thumping shutter.

Phylloxera said:

ES is my favourite since I've got the R5mk2 because now macro stacks using ETTL flash and RF 100/2.8 are now possible within a few seconds.

Click to expand...

Hi Phylloxera, are you getting good results with that technique? Are you able to share some images and technical details? It’s the one thing that would get me to move from the R5 to the R5ii.

We've had these conversations before. One day soon the high speed shutter systems will be extinct. Manufacturers will just need something that closes to protect the sensor for lens changes, etc. Imagine the savings not having to install and warranty mirror assemblies. I doubt they applied those savings to us. If I was running a company that would be a top priority. I had a lot experience in lean manufacturing in my working days.

GammyKnee said:

mangurian said:

I am curious. How many of you use mechanical shutter a lot? Am I losing much?

Click to expand...

I do use the two mechanical modes quite a bit.

If I'm shooting flash, it'll be EFCS; there's no avoiding mechanical here with my R6 or R8, and I see no advantage to going full mechanical for how I'm shooting (usually stopped down).

If I'm shooting low ISO on a static shot, wide open and wanting the best dynamic range and the best bokeh, I'll go full mechanical on the R6. The benefits of doing this aren't always noticeable in practice, but photonstophotos tells me the DR advantage should be there and with a fast aperture the bokeh might just be that bit smoother as the shutter speed goes up. Of course the R8 doesn't give me full mechanical and won't give me more than 1/4000 in EFCS so I'll typically go ES just to let me get the higher shutter speed / faster aperture combo.

If I'm shooting indoors with articial light, I'm going to go EFCS just to get the flicker reduction.

Click to expand...

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...EOS R6 Mark II(EFCS),Canon EOS R6 Mark II(ES) shows that there's no practical dynamic range difference between two-curtain and EFC shutter for the R6 II. There isn't a curve for EFCS for the original R6 but there's no theoretical reason for a difference anyway as the readout only happens after the second curtain closes.

In theory the bokeh will be affected by the difference between the hard edge of the electronic front curtain and the penumbra of the shadow of the physical rear curtain. In practice the slit needs to be very narrow (shutter speeds in excess of 1/1000th of a second) and the penumbra width a significant proportion of the slit width (probably of the order of f/1.4 or wider) for the effect to be intrusive.

Indoors I use silent shutter where possible so as not to draw attention to the camera, though that's not possible with the high speed flicker of some LED lighting. I see gentle striping on walls lit by fluorescent tubes but it only becomes unpleasant when the stripes don't coincide if I try to combine two images. It's best to have some shutter noise though, if people are posing for you.

GammyKnee said:

For outdoors action though, I get way more keepers with ES; the AF performs better and of course I get more frames to choose from for the peak moment. That trumps everything else for me; there's no point worrying about slightly reduced DR if I didn't actually get the shot, and the DR advantage goes south as the ISO goes up anyway. That said, even with the R8 I have managed to get some bendy verticals, not often though!

Bottom line: with my shooting habits I would be one of those people shying away from a higher shutter count.

Click to expand...

mangurian said:

.....and paying up for low shutter count. I don't worry about shutter count. I shoot almost exclusively with electronic shutter not mechanical with my R5.

I rarely use flash because wide apertures & higher iso generally do the job for what I mostly shoot.
I have also found that electronic shutter is not bad for the sports shots I do. I suppose I lose something in somes cenarios.

I am curious. How many of you use mechanical shutter a lot? Am I losing much?

Click to expand...

I use mostly the EFCS on my R6II. Sometimes mechanical, rarely electronic unless I need silent shutter. I don't shoot electronic due to 12 bit depth, and I don't need the speed.

To your question about high shutter count and passing up good deals, for me it matters. Most cameras with very high shutter counts have been through a lot of use. It's not just shutter; button wear and tear, general knocks, LCD scratches, grime accumulation, etc. Just like mileage on a car, everything shows wear as the use goes up.

Not to say I wouldn't buy a camera solely due to high shutter actuations, but it's harder to find a truly high mileage camera that doesn't look like it's been kicked down the sidewalk a few times. My preference is to pay a bit more for a clean copy, as while in my possession it will stay that way; I'm not hard on my gear. I've never purchased a "beater" copy of a camera.

Sittatunga said:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Cha...EOS R6 Mark II(EFCS),Canon EOS R6 Mark II(ES) shows that there's no practical dynamic range difference between two-curtain and EFC shutter for the R6 II. There isn't a curve for EFCS for the original R6 but there's no theoretical reason for a difference anyway as the readout only happens after the second curtain closes.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. My point - and I didn't make it well - was that if you're shooting fast shutter with fast aperture on the R6, you've got two shutter options for the best possible bokeh: ES or full mechanical. Of those two, full mechanical yields the best DR at low ISO. I wasn't suggesting that I'd expect any difference in DR between EFCS and full mech.

Sittatunga said:

In theory the bokeh will be affected by the difference between the hard edge of the electronic front curtain and the penumbra of the shadow of the physical rear curtain. In practice the slit needs to be very narrow (shutter speeds in excess of 1/1000th of a second) and the penumbra width a significant proportion of the slit width (probably of the order of f/1.4 or wider) for the effect to be intrusive.

Click to expand...

Yep the effect is subtle, but I'm anal about such things

In over a year with my R5II I have never used either mechanical mode, only full electronic. I rarely use flash, but it works well in electronic shutter (I’ve checked). Any loss in DR is literally imperceptible. The flexibility of being able to customize frame rates is really welcome. Pre shooting is also a great feature, that needs e shutter. On my R6II I shoot e shutter most of the time (at least 80%). There is a measured drop in DR at low ISO settings, but I’ve never noticed it (process with DXO and noise in the shadows is a complete non-issue). On my R7 I’m also mostly in e shutter. I very rarely shoot subjects where rolling shutter would be noticeable. I won’t mind at all if future cameras lack mechanical shutters altogether.

"Manufacturers will just need something that closes to protect the sensor for lens changes, etc."

'Back to the future" - I consider this to be one of the advantages of the Canon R.

MyReality said:

"Manufacturers will just need something that closes to protect the sensor for lens changes, etc."

'Back to the future" - I consider this to be one of the advantages of the Canon R.

Click to expand...

Despite its awful fps which resulted in bad frame to frame blackout I made it work. There are still times I'm sorry I sold it. Great walk around. I'm looking forward to the R6III if it has 30mp.





--
Funny how millions of people on an internet platform where they can communicate instantaneously with people on the other side of the world using incredibly powerful handheld computers linked to orbiting the satellites hundreds of miles in space don’t believe in science. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Zeee said:

MyReality said:

"Manufacturers will just need something that closes to protect the sensor for lens changes, etc."

'Back to the future" - I consider this to be one of the advantages of the Canon R.

Click to expand...

Despite its awful fps which resulted in bad frame to frame blackout I made it work. There are still times I'm sorry I sold it. Great walk around. I'm looking forward to the R6III if it has 30mp.

Click to expand...

Nice photos. My RP has the same blackout issue, but I make it work with anticipation and timing.











I am actually thinking of buying the R, because my shooting style does not require a lot of fps.

mangurian said:

.....and paying up for low shutter count. I don't worry about shutter count. I shoot almost exclusively with electronic shutter not mechanical with my R5.

I rarely use flash because wide apertures & higher iso generally do the job for what I mostly shoot.
I have also found that electronic shutter is not bad for the sports shots I do. I suppose I lose something in somes cenarios.

I am curious. How many of you use mechanical shutter a lot? Am I losing much

Click to expand...

The RP has an electronic shutter but I cannot use it in TV AV P etc

Rick

MyReality said:

Zeee said:

MyReality said:

"Manufacturers will just need something that closes to protect the sensor for lens changes, etc."

'Back to the future" - I consider this to be one of the advantages of the Canon R.

Click to expand...

Despite its awful fps which resulted in bad frame to frame blackout I made it work. There are still times I'm sorry I sold it. Great walk around. I'm looking forward to the R6III if it has 30mp.

Click to expand...

Nice photos. My RP has the same blackout issue, but I make it work with anticipation and timing.





I am actually thinking of buying the R, because my shooting style does not require a lot of fps.

Click to expand...

Nive shots.

--
Funny how millions of people on an internet platform where they can communicate instantaneously with people on the other side of the world using incredibly powerful handheld computers linked to orbiting the satellites hundreds of miles in space don’t believe in science. Neil deGrasse Tyson