What are the „real world“ disadvantages of an EFCS only as in the A7c II?

Rod McD said:

DirkPeh said:

Rod McD said:

Hi Dirk,

Impacts on bokeh and banding have been discussed above. I'll leave those to other members, but there is a third impact that I know only too well.... It's not 'esoteric' - it's very real.

If you use adapted legacy lenses or data-less modern lenses in E mount, (eg Laowa, TTA, etc) and shoot at high shutter speeds (>1/1000) you will very likely see strong darkening (reduced exposure) on one side of the image in the plane of shutter travel. Ie you will see darkening across the top of a horizontal image or down one side of a vertical image.

This effect occurs with all use of EFCS - it is a product of EFCS not the specific body - but all modern Sony EFCS cameras are programmed to digitally compensate for the reduced exposure using lens information from lenses that transmit data. If you use a lens that doesn't transmit any data, no correction is applied, and you'll see the effect.

I occasionally use adapted glass - for things Sony doesn't offer - a 100mm macro, a 180mm Apo Macro, a 300/4L, and a very small and light short-tele zoom. When I first hit the EFCS impact, I was completely unaware of the cause of the problem. The effect and explanation were well known in the Adapted Lens Forum...... I posted a question about it there - examples and discussion at this link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67249956

The impact is strong and difficult to correct (unless you perhaps know something about single-side graduated exposure correction that I don't know - which is very possible - and in which case, please share). The only solution is to reduce shutter speeds to about 1/1000 or longer. Depending on your use case, that might be to change ISO or aperture, or use an ND filter, but if for some reason you need the high SS you're out of luck.

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

Thanks Rod, just read the thread you referenced to. I plan to adapt my old Pentax SMC 50mm f/1.7 K-Mount to the Sony. Heavy stuff, would never have thought of it. Happy that only very few of my pictures are over SS 1/1000.

Click to expand...

Hi Dirk,

Enjoy your Pentax lens. I find that adapted lenses sometimes solve problems brilliantly. I'm like you and rarely shoot over 1/1000. I discovered the EFCS problem when I shot the images in the linked thread because I overlooked returning the ISO to a lower level.

Just an afterthought.... I re-read the responses from aidaho and Prof Hank in that thread. The very last comment by aidaho seems to say that you can use the high shutter speeds (that will cause problems with EFCS) if you switch to full electronic shutter. I might try this next time I have an adapted lens on the camera - shoot one at say 1/4000 with EFCS and one with full ES and see if the difference is evident. (OTOH he mentions that full ES also comes with a different set of potential problems. I've never used full ES, so don't know what they are - it may also be that I won't come across them in my photography - I'm mainly interested in landscape and nature.)

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

nzmacro said:

Rod McD said:

DirkPeh said:

Rod McD said:

Hi Dirk,

Impacts on bokeh and banding have been discussed above. I'll leave those to other members, but there is a third impact that I know only too well.... It's not 'esoteric' - it's very real.

If you use adapted legacy lenses or data-less modern lenses in E mount, (eg Laowa, TTA, etc) and shoot at high shutter speeds (>1/1000) you will very likely see strong darkening (reduced exposure) on one side of the image in the plane of shutter travel. Ie you will see darkening across the top of a horizontal image or down one side of a vertical image.

This effect occurs with all use of EFCS - it is a product of EFCS not the specific body - but all modern Sony EFCS cameras are programmed to digitally compensate for the reduced exposure using lens information from lenses that transmit data. If you use a lens that doesn't transmit any data, no correction is applied, and you'll see the effect.

I occasionally use adapted glass - for things Sony doesn't offer - a 100mm macro, a 180mm Apo Macro, a 300/4L, and a very small and light short-tele zoom. When I first hit the EFCS impact, I was completely unaware of the cause of the problem. The effect and explanation were well known in the Adapted Lens Forum...... I posted a question about it there - examples and discussion at this link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67249956

The impact is strong and difficult to correct (unless you perhaps know something about single-side graduated exposure correction that I don't know - which is very possible - and in which case, please share). The only solution is to reduce shutter speeds to about 1/1000 or longer. Depending on your use case, that might be to change ISO or aperture, or use an ND filter, but if for some reason you need the high SS you're out of luck.

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

Thanks Rod, just read the thread you referenced to. I plan to adapt my old Pentax SMC 50mm f/1.7 K-Mount to the Sony. Heavy stuff, would never have thought of it. Happy that only very few of my pictures are over SS 1/1000.

Click to expand...

Hi Dirk,

Enjoy your Pentax lens. I find that adapted lenses sometimes solve problems brilliantly. I'm like you and rarely shoot over 1/1000. I discovered the EFCS problem when I shot the images in the linked thread because I overlooked returning the ISO to a lower level.

Just an afterthought.... I re-read the responses from aidaho and Prof Hank in that thread. The very last comment by aidaho seems to say that you can use the high shutter speeds (that will cause problems with EFCS) if you switch to full electronic shutter. I might try this next time I have an adapted lens on the camera - shoot one at say 1/4000 with EFCS and one with full ES and see if the difference is evident. (OTOH he mentions that full ES also comes with a different set of potential problems. I've never used full ES, so don't know what they are - it may also be that I won't come across them in my photography - I'm mainly interested in landscape and nature.)

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

If I shoot the Canon teles over 1/4000 on the A7RIV on BIFs I get that on blue skies with EFCS. Under 1/4000 and it's fine Rob. I also get the same on Sony APS-C.

All the best your way Rob.

Danny.

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

nzmacro said:

Rod McD said:

DirkPeh said:

Rod McD said:

Hi Dirk,

Impacts on bokeh and banding have been discussed above. I'll leave those to other members, but there is a third impact that I know only too well.... It's not 'esoteric' - it's very real.

If you use adapted legacy lenses or data-less modern lenses in E mount, (eg Laowa, TTA, etc) and shoot at high shutter speeds (>1/1000) you will very likely see strong darkening (reduced exposure) on one side of the image in the plane of shutter travel. Ie you will see darkening across the top of a horizontal image or down one side of a vertical image.

This effect occurs with all use of EFCS - it is a product of EFCS not the specific body - but all modern Sony EFCS cameras are programmed to digitally compensate for the reduced exposure using lens information from lenses that transmit data. If you use a lens that doesn't transmit any data, no correction is applied, and you'll see the effect.

I occasionally use adapted glass - for things Sony doesn't offer - a 100mm macro, a 180mm Apo Macro, a 300/4L, and a very small and light short-tele zoom. When I first hit the EFCS impact, I was completely unaware of the cause of the problem. The effect and explanation were well known in the Adapted Lens Forum...... I posted a question about it there - examples and discussion at this link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67249956

The impact is strong and difficult to correct (unless you perhaps know something about single-side graduated exposure correction that I don't know - which is very possible - and in which case, please share). The only solution is to reduce shutter speeds to about 1/1000 or longer. Depending on your use case, that might be to change ISO or aperture, or use an ND filter, but if for some reason you need the high SS you're out of luck.

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

Thanks Rod, just read the thread you referenced to. I plan to adapt my old Pentax SMC 50mm f/1.7 K-Mount to the Sony. Heavy stuff, would never have thought of it. Happy that only very few of my pictures are over SS 1/1000.

Click to expand...

Hi Dirk,

Enjoy your Pentax lens. I find that adapted lenses sometimes solve problems brilliantly. I'm like you and rarely shoot over 1/1000. I discovered the EFCS problem when I shot the images in the linked thread because I overlooked returning the ISO to a lower level.

Just an afterthought.... I re-read the responses from aidaho and Prof Hank in that thread. The very last comment by aidaho seems to say that you can use the high shutter speeds (that will cause problems with EFCS) if you switch to full electronic shutter. I might try this next time I have an adapted lens on the camera - shoot one at say 1/4000 with EFCS and one with full ES and see if the difference is evident. (OTOH he mentions that full ES also comes with a different set of potential problems. I've never used full ES, so don't know what they are - it may also be that I won't come across them in my photography - I'm mainly interested in landscape and nature.)

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

If I shoot the Canon teles over 1/4000 on the A7RIV on BIFs I get that on blue skies with EFCS. Under 1/4000 and it's fine Rob. I also get the same on Sony APS-C.

All the best your way Rob.

Danny.

Click to expand...

Hi Danny,

Thanks. Two thoughts....

1) the EFCS effect with adapted lenses is lens dependent because it depends partly on the angle of incidence of the light projected from the rear of the lens. I start getting it on my A7R3 from about 1/1500 with my Canon FD 300/4L. By 1/4000, it's bad - unacceptable.

2) Is your experience here with your Canon FDs, or are you referring here to Canon EF lenses with a smart adapter? A smart adapter might communicate the required data to your A7R5, but I don't know.....

Cheers, Rod

Click to expand...

nzmacro said:

Rod McD said:

nzmacro said:

Rod McD said:

DirkPeh said:

Rod McD said:

Hi Dirk,

Impacts on bokeh and banding have been discussed above. I'll leave those to other members, but there is a third impact that I know only too well.... It's not 'esoteric' - it's very real.

If you use adapted legacy lenses or data-less modern lenses in E mount, (eg Laowa, TTA, etc) and shoot at high shutter speeds (>1/1000) you will very likely see strong darkening (reduced exposure) on one side of the image in the plane of shutter travel. Ie you will see darkening across the top of a horizontal image or down one side of a vertical image.

This effect occurs with all use of EFCS - it is a product of EFCS not the specific body - but all modern Sony EFCS cameras are programmed to digitally compensate for the reduced exposure using lens information from lenses that transmit data. If you use a lens that doesn't transmit any data, no correction is applied, and you'll see the effect.

I occasionally use adapted glass - for things Sony doesn't offer - a 100mm macro, a 180mm Apo Macro, a 300/4L, and a very small and light short-tele zoom. When I first hit the EFCS impact, I was completely unaware of the cause of the problem. The effect and explanation were well known in the Adapted Lens Forum...... I posted a question about it there - examples and discussion at this link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67249956

The impact is strong and difficult to correct (unless you perhaps know something about single-side graduated exposure correction that I don't know - which is very possible - and in which case, please share). The only solution is to reduce shutter speeds to about 1/1000 or longer. Depending on your use case, that might be to change ISO or aperture, or use an ND filter, but if for some reason you need the high SS you're out of luck.

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

Thanks Rod, just read the thread you referenced to. I plan to adapt my old Pentax SMC 50mm f/1.7 K-Mount to the Sony. Heavy stuff, would never have thought of it. Happy that only very few of my pictures are over SS 1/1000.

Click to expand...

Hi Dirk,

Enjoy your Pentax lens. I find that adapted lenses sometimes solve problems brilliantly. I'm like you and rarely shoot over 1/1000. I discovered the EFCS problem when I shot the images in the linked thread because I overlooked returning the ISO to a lower level.

Just an afterthought.... I re-read the responses from aidaho and Prof Hank in that thread. The very last comment by aidaho seems to say that you can use the high shutter speeds (that will cause problems with EFCS) if you switch to full electronic shutter. I might try this next time I have an adapted lens on the camera - shoot one at say 1/4000 with EFCS and one with full ES and see if the difference is evident. (OTOH he mentions that full ES also comes with a different set of potential problems. I've never used full ES, so don't know what they are - it may also be that I won't come across them in my photography - I'm mainly interested in landscape and nature.)

Regards, Rod

Click to expand...

If I shoot the Canon teles over 1/4000 on the A7RIV on BIFs I get that on blue skies with EFCS. Under 1/4000 and it's fine Rob. I also get the same on Sony APS-C.

All the best your way Rob.

Danny.

Click to expand...

Hi Danny,

Thanks. Two thoughts....

1) the EFCS effect with adapted lenses is lens dependent because it depends partly on the angle of incidence of the light projected from the rear of the lens. I start getting it on my A7R3 from about 1/1500 with my Canon FD 300/4L. By 1/4000, it's bad - unacceptable.

2) Is your experience here with your Canon FDs, or are you referring here to Canon EF lenses with a smart adapter? A smart adapter might communicate the required data to your A7R5, but I don't know.....

Cheers, Rod

Click to expand...

The FD 500 F/4.5L and the 300 F/2.8L Rod. With the A7RIV at 1/4000 I don't get it, over that and it shows up. I don't have any EF lenses Rod.

Danny.

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

nzmacro said:

Rod McD said:

The FD 500 F/4.5L and the 300 F/2.8L Rod. With the A7RIV at 1/4000 I don't get it, over that and it shows up. I don't have any EF lenses Rod.

Click to expand...

Danny.

Click to expand...

Hi Danny,

Thanks for clarifying. I wondered if you might have added some EF lenses and smart adapters to your collection. Well I guess the fact that I'm noticing it at slightly lower speeds must just be the different lens / camera combo's that make it show up at different speeds.

How are the birds treating you across the ditch?

Cheers, Rod

Click to expand...

DirkPeh said:

How can the camera take the next picture, if it hasn’t finished reading the sensor of the picture I took before?

Click to expand...

Sundre said:

DirkPeh said:

I‘ve read a lot about the A7c II lacking a full mechanical shutter and the consequences, but I am still confused:

What are real world scenarios, where having a full mechanical shutter instead of an Electronic First Curtain Shutter only, be an advantage?

What are scenarios, where an EFCS only camera would fail?

I have, for example, read comments about EFCS only ruining the out of focus area quality, but then it comes down to rather special situations that might occur as good as never in real life.

Click to expand...

Personally, I have mainly seen EFCS produce banding where mechanical shutter doesn't. It only happens with particular kinds of lights, usually in concert venues, night clubs, theatres etc. Not an issue outdoors.

Click to expand...

UncleVanya said:

DirkPeh said:

I‘ve read a lot about the A7c II lacking a full mechanical shutter and the consequences, but I am still confused:

What are real world scenarios, where having a full mechanical shutter instead of an Electronic First Curtain Shutter only, be an advantage?

What are scenarios, where an EFCS only camera would fail?

I have, for example, read comments about EFCS only ruining the out of focus area quality, but then it comes down to rather special situations that might occur as good as never in real life.

Click to expand...

High shutter speed, large open aperture: clips the bokeh shapes causing problems with the shape of the oof highlights.

Click to expand...

Joachim Wulfers said:

Sundre said:

DirkPeh said:

I‘ve read a lot about the A7c II lacking a full mechanical shutter and the consequences, but I am still confused:

What are real world scenarios, where having a full mechanical shutter instead of an Electronic First Curtain Shutter only, be an advantage?

What are scenarios, where an EFCS only camera would fail?

I have, for example, read comments about EFCS only ruining the out of focus area quality, but then it comes down to rather special situations that might occur as good as never in real life.

Click to expand...

Personally, I have mainly seen EFCS produce banding where mechanical shutter doesn't. It only happens with particular kinds of lights, usually in concert venues, night clubs, theatres etc. Not an issue outdoors.

Click to expand...

I am also curious concerning DirkPeh's question. ((.9% of my photos with the A6600 are shot in EFCS. I only switch to silent shutter when I photograph during equestrian (jumping) competitions. I have never experienced banding in my photos. Mind you, my interior shots are only at home and I don't have "peculiar" lights.

Click to expand...

Sundre said:

Joachim Wulfers said:

Sundre said:

DirkPeh said:

I‘ve read a lot about the A7c II lacking a full mechanical shutter and the consequences, but I am still confused:

What are real world scenarios, where having a full mechanical shutter instead of an Electronic First Curtain Shutter only, be an advantage?

What are scenarios, where an EFCS only camera would fail?

I have, for example, read comments about EFCS only ruining the out of focus area quality, but then it comes down to rather special situations that might occur as good as never in real life.

Click to expand...

Personally, I have mainly seen EFCS produce banding where mechanical shutter doesn't. It only happens with particular kinds of lights, usually in concert venues, night clubs, theatres etc. Not an issue outdoors.

Click to expand...

I am also curious concerning DirkPeh's question. ((.9% of my photos with the A6600 are shot in EFCS. I only switch to silent shutter when I photograph during equestrian (jumping) competitions. I have never experienced banding in my photos. Mind you, my interior shots are only at home and I don't have "peculiar" lights.

Click to expand...

Banding looks like this:



There are no lines on the LED screen behind her to the naked eye. In this particular case, there was banding even with a fully mechanical shutter, which happens occasionally. Using e-shutter (except the very fastest i.e. A9iii, A1) increases the risk of it happening, as does EFCS.

It's mostly an issue for event photographers.

Click to expand...

Joachim Wulfers

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