the problem with one battery, is the day i went to shoot my camcorder and my Canon battery wouldn't work. groan
got on amazon and ordered two Kastar batteries and have lived happily ever after.
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third party batteries
- Thread starter lomoapontaechuta
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got on amazon and ordered two Kastar batteries and have lived happily ever after.
Gato Amarillo
Forum Pro
I always like to have a spare battery, even if I'm just wandering around town. Maybe a battery fails, maybe I forgot to charge it, maybe I stumble into a great opportunity and shoot a lot more than I planned ... things can happen.
Very often I can find a good deal on two batteries plus a charger, which is what I usually do when I get a new or new-to-me camera.
Gato
Very often I can find a good deal on two batteries plus a charger, which is what I usually do when I get a new or new-to-me camera.
Gato
If one cares to do so, it is possible to find considerable information on the failure modes of Lithium ion batteries. Whilst I have neither the inclination nor space to go into detail, it is obvious that some of the failure modes are peculiar to the chemistry of this type of cell. Others are related to the installation, ( external charging circuit, battery management, physical arrangement etc.) or, significantly, battery handling.
The majority of the failure modes are common to the characteristics of the Lithium ion battery so it matters not whether one buys OE or third party batteries the risks remain. Some risks cannot be avoided, some can be mitigated and others completely eliminated. As an example, cleanliness in the production environment is essential and can virtually eliminate some risks. Putting the cells in a hard case and then eliminating anything other than the essential contacts in the battery compartment removes any risk of mechanical damage from the installation (a fire on a 787 was caused by a wire distorting cells of a battery).
Most battery types don’t catch fire. Li-ion batteries use a flammable solvent electrolyte, it is this that is responsible for the severity of battery fires. Such Lithium as there is in the batteries is in the form of Lithium salts dissolved in the electrolyte. The 1,000 reported fires in Australia suggests that such fires are rare, consider how many Li-ion batteries you own and multiply that by the number of households in your town to get an idea of the total number around.
The risk from third party batteries is in the battery itself, either poor practices in the assembly of the cells or the battery or the omission of safety circuits/components. As already pointed out, some risks exist irrespective of the manufacturer. If one uses the original battery charger supplied with the camera it is possible to minimise the risk from using third party batteries. What many people have forgotten is that, with the internet, if a particular brand of batteries is found to be a significantly poor performer, buyers will take to social media and make their experiences known. By all means buy OE batteries but don’t automatically disparage third party ones, there are some good ones out there, the problem remains with finding them.
The majority of the failure modes are common to the characteristics of the Lithium ion battery so it matters not whether one buys OE or third party batteries the risks remain. Some risks cannot be avoided, some can be mitigated and others completely eliminated. As an example, cleanliness in the production environment is essential and can virtually eliminate some risks. Putting the cells in a hard case and then eliminating anything other than the essential contacts in the battery compartment removes any risk of mechanical damage from the installation (a fire on a 787 was caused by a wire distorting cells of a battery).
Most battery types don’t catch fire. Li-ion batteries use a flammable solvent electrolyte, it is this that is responsible for the severity of battery fires. Such Lithium as there is in the batteries is in the form of Lithium salts dissolved in the electrolyte. The 1,000 reported fires in Australia suggests that such fires are rare, consider how many Li-ion batteries you own and multiply that by the number of households in your town to get an idea of the total number around.
The risk from third party batteries is in the battery itself, either poor practices in the assembly of the cells or the battery or the omission of safety circuits/components. As already pointed out, some risks exist irrespective of the manufacturer. If one uses the original battery charger supplied with the camera it is possible to minimise the risk from using third party batteries. What many people have forgotten is that, with the internet, if a particular brand of batteries is found to be a significantly poor performer, buyers will take to social media and make their experiences known. By all means buy OE batteries but don’t automatically disparage third party ones, there are some good ones out there, the problem remains with finding them.
Chris Noble
Veteran Member
You have never heard of Underwriters Laboratory? They are the #1 electronic product testing and certification organization, worldwide. Product models that pass their certification testing have the UL logo on them. Including my OEM Panasonic camera batteries.
I would trust their scientific method, sampling, statistics and reputation over self-selected DPReview chat-room opinions.
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I had a quick read through (but did not study) the white paper but wish it had been more revealing.
For example:-
I have third party batteries; I am no more concerned for my safety now than before I read the white paper. My experience does not warrant me changing. If my camera/charger explodes and burns down my house I will let you know (if I survive).
For example:-
- 33 'brands' but is that 33 different manufacturers?
- or one manufacturer with 33 different labels?
- or maybe somewhere between?
- who are these 'brands' because if I believe in the test-house, I want to avoid them?
- do any of these manufacturers produce for 'big' names?
- and if so, are their batteries manufactured to different standards?
- is the format of the battery significant (they seem to imply they were all phone batteries)
- are the risks discussed less relevant when I use a proper BMS regardless of the battery manufacturer?
- how significant is the short-circuit test in the scenario of cameras?
I have third party batteries; I am no more concerned for my safety now than before I read the white paper. My experience does not warrant me changing. If my camera/charger explodes and burns down my house I will let you know (if I survive).
The report also states:
"None of the battery brands purchased were safety-certified to the applicable regional standards. Twenty-nine of the 33 (88%) battery brands exhibited failures to such standards. All of the failed battery brands exhibited fire and explosion events either at pack or cell level. Such findings highlight a concerning trend — uncertified aftermarket smartphone replacement batteries often fall short of meeting established safety standards, posing potential concerns for consumer safety. In extreme cases, this could lead to thermal runaway1, explosions or fires, causing immediate harm to consumers. To minimize such risk, consumers should purchase aftermarket smartphone replacement batteries from trusted and reliable sources that meet applicable regional safety standards"
The emphasis is mine. The study was partially funded by Apple (footnote#6).
Cheers,
Doug
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It's not about credibility but the purpose. As I mentioned Australian 'authorities' when it comes to chemical testing, I am familiar with their work (and in certain areas 'jurisdictions' when it comes to the compliances with the Law. One of the big items UL white paper enlists is the compliance with the local regulations, or the way they see it 'the stamp of approval' they might be entitled to provide to your local (US) market. Fair enough.
However, the fact products are available on the market and nobody is stopping to be sold, reveals the other side of the story - the lawmakers made it possible for such products to legally exist. The likely reason is that none breaches any patent (any without the patent infringement, the OEM cannot stop it), there is no undeniable proof those product being dangerous (in normal operation) to be legally stopped from the safety perspective.
That being said, OEMs regularly engage independent labs to conduct such testing in their own interests. In this case, I can speculate Apple commissioned UL to conduct such testing so they can write (internal) 'manual' for Warranty claims on their products if affected by the operation of (eventually) installed 3d party battery. Actually, testing like this are conducted to identify possible counterfeit items (otherwise almost impossible to distinguish from the hardware levels, leaving the performance and 'chemical' analysis as the only avenue. BMS may not have any 'software fingerprint' (which would constitute as a patent. For the sake of the arguments, let's say it has - hence 3rd party MFG have their own HW solution to go around it. Acknowledging THAT to be the big ticket item when it comes to the usability (like accurate reporting of the remaining charge on specific device or similar), in itself does not constitute the product more dangerous then the OEM.
When it comes to the cells, things are more complex: there is a bunch of MFGs out there. Majority of cells are 'standard' - size, shape, capacity etc. Like with all products, the quality control is random sample based. Outcome of the sampling determines the 'price' and the level of finished product determines the sampling criteria. If we stick with one 'brand' and assuming all products of the same manufacturer use the same battery (for illustration), the Ultra-premium (the most expensive) model would allow x number of 'below line' battery units in y size sample , out of z totally produced batteries. Once assembled, the whole final product is sampled again and the batch will NOT get released if A number of units in B size sample out of C totally produced units fail.
The same manufacturer has a different criteria for low end product: they would allow (for illustration) 3 times x units to fail in the same sample size y, in z batch. And again, the same as with finished product.
Which begs the question what happens when the batch (of batteries) is rejected after all the sampling? Believe me, they still get sold. And that is how majority of 3rd party batteries are born. That also explains why one person was very happy with 3rd party battery and the other one not so. It doesn't mean that 3rd party manufacturer may just start packing the cells and start selling them. Some 'reputable' brands had been on the market for years. Some of them may even run internal batch or even individual testing ( mass manufacturers don't do) to sift though the lot - as much as costing allows to still make the profit. The bottom line - it's not all black and white (like the white paper may be suggesting). That is also why no battery manufacturers were mentioned in it. Worth noticing is the fact that the unlucky customer who got that x battery installed in his/her product may have it explode or catch fire. In case of Samsung note 7, it was not the battery but the bad design making possible the battery to get ruptured (and we know the rest of the story).
Don't get me wrong - I have no interest in the whole 3rd party VS OEM debate. I have half a drawer full of Canon / Sony/ Panasonic/Nikon/Fuji OEM batteries. The other half were 'reputable' 3rd party batteries. None exploded or caused me any problems. Many camcorder batteries no longer operational, OEM or not. Most Nikon batteries work - BUT waiting what will happen as 2 are on the number 4 (Nikon users will know what I'm talking about, programmed obsolescence?). The 3rd party is locked on 'forever new'...
What I cannot stand is the 'scare tactics' used by many these days, aimed to maximize the profit or control the people. And I also agree thinking 'using' the valet only is not ideal. The proverb ' I'm not rich enough to buy cheap' has its place, yet if only buying expensive anymore means the longevity and the quality....
However, the fact products are available on the market and nobody is stopping to be sold, reveals the other side of the story - the lawmakers made it possible for such products to legally exist. The likely reason is that none breaches any patent (any without the patent infringement, the OEM cannot stop it), there is no undeniable proof those product being dangerous (in normal operation) to be legally stopped from the safety perspective.
That being said, OEMs regularly engage independent labs to conduct such testing in their own interests. In this case, I can speculate Apple commissioned UL to conduct such testing so they can write (internal) 'manual' for Warranty claims on their products if affected by the operation of (eventually) installed 3d party battery. Actually, testing like this are conducted to identify possible counterfeit items (otherwise almost impossible to distinguish from the hardware levels, leaving the performance and 'chemical' analysis as the only avenue. BMS may not have any 'software fingerprint' (which would constitute as a patent. For the sake of the arguments, let's say it has - hence 3rd party MFG have their own HW solution to go around it. Acknowledging THAT to be the big ticket item when it comes to the usability (like accurate reporting of the remaining charge on specific device or similar), in itself does not constitute the product more dangerous then the OEM.
When it comes to the cells, things are more complex: there is a bunch of MFGs out there. Majority of cells are 'standard' - size, shape, capacity etc. Like with all products, the quality control is random sample based. Outcome of the sampling determines the 'price' and the level of finished product determines the sampling criteria. If we stick with one 'brand' and assuming all products of the same manufacturer use the same battery (for illustration), the Ultra-premium (the most expensive) model would allow x number of 'below line' battery units in y size sample , out of z totally produced batteries. Once assembled, the whole final product is sampled again and the batch will NOT get released if A number of units in B size sample out of C totally produced units fail.
The same manufacturer has a different criteria for low end product: they would allow (for illustration) 3 times x units to fail in the same sample size y, in z batch. And again, the same as with finished product.
Which begs the question what happens when the batch (of batteries) is rejected after all the sampling? Believe me, they still get sold. And that is how majority of 3rd party batteries are born. That also explains why one person was very happy with 3rd party battery and the other one not so. It doesn't mean that 3rd party manufacturer may just start packing the cells and start selling them. Some 'reputable' brands had been on the market for years. Some of them may even run internal batch or even individual testing ( mass manufacturers don't do) to sift though the lot - as much as costing allows to still make the profit. The bottom line - it's not all black and white (like the white paper may be suggesting). That is also why no battery manufacturers were mentioned in it. Worth noticing is the fact that the unlucky customer who got that x battery installed in his/her product may have it explode or catch fire. In case of Samsung note 7, it was not the battery but the bad design making possible the battery to get ruptured (and we know the rest of the story).
Don't get me wrong - I have no interest in the whole 3rd party VS OEM debate. I have half a drawer full of Canon / Sony/ Panasonic/Nikon/Fuji OEM batteries. The other half were 'reputable' 3rd party batteries. None exploded or caused me any problems. Many camcorder batteries no longer operational, OEM or not. Most Nikon batteries work - BUT waiting what will happen as 2 are on the number 4 (Nikon users will know what I'm talking about, programmed obsolescence?). The 3rd party is locked on 'forever new'...
What I cannot stand is the 'scare tactics' used by many these days, aimed to maximize the profit or control the people. And I also agree thinking 'using' the valet only is not ideal. The proverb ' I'm not rich enough to buy cheap' has its place, yet if only buying expensive anymore means the longevity and the quality....
Chris Noble
Veteran Member
UL testing is also accredited in Australia:
https://au-nz.ul.com/services/about-the-ul-au-mark-scheme
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I never charge in camera. Most battery failures (whether outgassing, overheat or fire) occur during charging (which is why current phone practice is a terrible idea).
bjn70
Veteran Member
I've had trouble with third party power tool batteries, I've had good luck with random brand 18650 batteries.
I bought a D750 that came with a Nikon battery and a couple of third party batteries, now only the Nikon battery still works. I bought a D3300 that came with 2 third party batteries and they both work great.
I bought a D750 that came with a Nikon battery and a couple of third party batteries, now only the Nikon battery still works. I bought a D3300 that came with 2 third party batteries and they both work great.
great. would that D3300 happen to have some brand name printed on it, that may alert us to a good brand we can obtain maybe at Amazon?
thanks.
There have been a number of tests of 3rd party power tool batteries, some have been good and some problematic (insufficient overload/short protection)
I bought a 'Nikon' compact camera battery a few years ago which I believe was fake. biggest clue (other than the Nikon charger would not accept it) was that it weighed about 30% less than the known real one.
OEM batteries sometimes become hard to get as the manufacturers are more interested in selling the new stuff, so I've adopted a strategy of buying excess 3rd party batteries with the expectation some will not last. I have had some good results with the known alternative brands, though.
bjn70
Veteran Member
Here are some examples:
I bought the D3300 used on ebay, it came with 2 third party batteries and a third party charger. Everything seems to work well and the batteries last about as long as I would expect. The charger and batteries say Powerextra on them.
I dug out the old problematic EN-EL15 batteries that I had. One of them is a B-3410-2 by Watson, the other is a Nikon brand EN-EL15.
DirkPeh
Senior Member
I never buy OEM batteries as I never bought an inkjet printer before tank printers were available. It’s just telling the manufacturers: I'm not stupid. It’s like buying a mediocre flash for 800,- that’s worth 130,- and offered because grandpa thinks only Minolta flashes work as intended on Minolta cameras or Sony tapes work best for Sony tapedecks, because they’re made by the same company. They are simply batteries.
This said, I would never buy really cheap ones. Some of the companies offering third party batteries have a reputation for their products like the German company Baxxter. They aren’t cheap but reasonable priced like 80,- for two fz100 with a charger.
This said, I would never buy really cheap ones. Some of the companies offering third party batteries have a reputation for their products like the German company Baxxter. They aren’t cheap but reasonable priced like 80,- for two fz100 with a charger.
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Gordon W
Senior Member
Since getting my first digital camera in 1999, I have never bought one of those overpriced OEM batteries to replace any of the ones that came with any of the cameras I've bought since then, always buying third party batteries when needed and have never had a problem with any of them. never.
Latest example, it doesn't take long for my Nikon P1000 to discharge a battery, and often does so without warning, so I bought a BM Premium two-pack with charger for half the price of a single OEM battery which gives me three batteries to cycle through, a charged one in the camera and one in a pocket and one waiting at home beside the charger. When the one in the camera is discharged while out shooting, I replace it with the one in my pocket and when I get home I replace that one with the charged one waiting there and put the discharged one in the charger, so I always have at least two charged battery in use.
I've never compared them, but the third party batteries seem to last as long as the OEM battery.
Chris Wolfgram
Veteran Member
Why do you say that ?
Here’s my story. I’ve never directly bought an OEM battery, but had acquired 3 of them, with the purchase 3 new bodies.
Besides those, I have been using 3rd party batteries for many years. For the last several years, I’ve used BM brand with no problems whatsoever. They cost about 1/3rd the price of Canon OEM batteries, and seem to last at last as long as OEM on a charge.
So I left on my month long photography road trip earlier this year, with 8 batteries… 3 OEM’s, and 5 from BM. During my trip, 2 of my 8 batteries completely failed… both just happened to be Canon OEM’s.
Coincidence? Maybe. But those are the facts. Take what you want from it.
DMKAlex
Veteran Member
Ever since digital cameras came along, I have always purchase 3rd party battery. Simple mathematic is a 3rd party battery cost about 20% of the original. Even if 2 fail with 1 success, I am still ahead of the game. Plus, with Amazon and eBay, I have a month to try it out or to return them and get money back.
In the very early days, the 3rd party goods were chancy. But the process have matured and all the 3rd party goods in the past 7-8 years have been excellent.
I suggest that the sample size is too small to draw any significant conclusions.
Chris Wolfgram
Veteran Member
I'd say, it's maybe just not quite as accurate a conclusion, but its still "a conclusion"
lolI won't buy super over priced OEM batteries anyway. I do need to buy a couple replacements though.
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