Global vs stacked sensors

A stacked sensor provides capabilities for faster offloading of data off the sensor and to the data pipelines & storage. It serves as a enabler for a global shutter.
The above is an important thing to understand. Much of the progress on image sensors is "enabled" by something. For instance, you can't have stacked sensors without BSI. You couldn't have BSI CMOS without first having CMOS.

No one will show you their proprietary charts of interlocking parts without an NDA (and probably a big contract in place), but an image sensor is today a series of technology components that are integrated together, sometimes in new ways. Sony Semiconductor has huge libraries of options, including the basic EXMOR set that's often used as a base. Nikon, too, has libraries of options they've designed and prototyped. So does Fujifilm, Olympus, and Panasonic, and so does Sony Imaging.

You have to think of sensor development these days in terms of chefs (the individual companies and their individual and combined libraries of ingredients), while the fabs are the line cooks that put the meal (sensor) together. One of the critical steps that I look at is who is taping out the sensor? If it's the fab, then likely you're looking at a standardized sensor offered to anyone, with minor tweaks. If it's the camera company, then it's truly their recipe (which may involve stock ingredients).

Sony Semiconductor, in particular, has a huge pantry full of possible ingredients. Many of those came from things that the camera companies themselves created. In essence, Sony Semiconductor wants to be able to "make anyone's meal." Thus they've been aggressive about licensing things that they can stuff into the pantry for possible use.

Nikon, for instance, has an ingredient that we've not yet seen in a commercial sensor, but have seen in a research project: using a stacked sensor (the enabler) to produce localized dynamic range (e.g. each 16x16 block of pixels can be exposed differently). They couldn't have made that ingredient without someone first making stacked sensors possible. Nikon also is in a unique position because their manufacturing equipment (steppers) is often used to create image sensors, so sometimes you can't make a new enabling technology without first making it possible on the equipment.

So, it's entirely possible that Sony Imaging, with the A9 Mark III, decided to let the stacked technique enable global shutter, while Nikon Imaging might decide to have it enable dynamic range extension instead.

Finally, note that the volume of image sensors being produced for dedicated cameras is now small overall compared to the entire market for image sensors. This has flipped where the innovations and changes (enablers) come from. Also, instead of always having to come up with the enabler themselves, now they can look at what auto, security, and smartphone has created and pick and choose the things that make dedicated cameras better. I don't think it's a surprise that Nikon dropped the shutter on their top models or that Sony went for highest-possible bandwidth once stacked became an enabler. With reduced volume, you tend to have to do the "new sensor" thing at the top, where the R&D payback will happen with fewer sales.
 
The real advantage is the gain of output power at high shutter speeds compared to HSS. According to Sony's specifications, it should be around 5 stops: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67351428
While I appreciate the information in the link - I prefer to wait for reality after delivery of the camera in about 3 months time.

The point I was making was an SLR, DSLR or ML does not move fast enough to be fully open for the duration of a flash at a shutter speed faster than around 1/250.

Assuming a maximum flash output time of 1/800 and near perfect flash synchronising a global might just record 100% of the output at 1/750 and could at 1/500.

If a global shutter is 1/4000 and the maximum flash output time is 1/800 then with perfect flash synchronisation 20% of the flash output can be captured.

This scenario of an 80% loss of light output with a global shutter is likely to be better than with pulsing HSF - but I expect not as dramatic a gain as in the link.

Using mixed output studio flash heads could be quite a chalenge trying to shoot global at 1/4000 if individual flash units vary their flash output time - as they probably will.
Yes, real-world testing is definitely needed but those numbers based on Sony's specifications are all what we have right now.

I did an additional calculations and the result is that 0.24 stops of light is lost from 1/250 s to 1/500 s. 1/1000 s results in 0.79 stop reduction, 1/2000 s in 1.54 stop reduction and from there on it's basically a full stop per doubling of shutter speed.

You assume that flash power is constant during pulse but that is not true. There is a peak at the beginning with a long decaying tail. So the reduction of power will be smaller than you calculated since it's mainly that tail with lower intensity that will get cut off.
 
Stacking and global shutter are not exclusive betweem themselves. A sensor can have either of them or both.
Technically, yes. Pragmatically, no.

24mp times 14 bits is over 5MB of data that has to be moved simultaneously. Doing that instantly past the adjacent cells (e.g. traditional EXMOR type column ADC) is beyond the current abilities without severe read noise penalties. As it is, doing it "out the back" in a stacked sensor won't be without issues, but fewer than if you tried to do it non-stacked.
 
Reading through numerous comments on Global vs. Stacked sensors; can't help but wonder if same people would have same comments if Global sensor was made by Nikon and it was Nikon A9iii vs. Sony Z9 / Z8 with stacked sensors.
 
Reading through numerous comments on Global vs. Stacked sensors; can't help but wonder if same people would have same comments if Global sensor was made by Nikon and it was Nikon A9iii vs. Sony Z9 / Z8 with stacked sensors.
Well, it strongly depends on what you shoot. For some people, global shutter will be a godsend and they will either switch to Sony or buy it as a second system. For others, there will be (almost) no benefits. The most complicated situation is for people that would gain something but also lose something else (e.g. DR, SNR) and they would have to thing hard which option is better for them in reality.
 
Reading through numerous comments on Global vs. Stacked sensors; can't help but wonder if same people would have same comments if Global sensor was made by Nikon and it was Nikon A9iii vs. Sony Z9 / Z8 with stacked sensors.
I would. I would love more FPS, but I also like having one camera for everything, and losing DR for more FPS isn't necessarily a tradeoff I want, not to mention any potential losses for astrophotography, etc.
 
Global shutter tech becomes relevant only for very fast video. These can be recorded at speeds far higher above 120 fps. Researchers are pushing the envelope for sensors with incredibly high frame rates.

The full frame MILC companies are targeting video as a major market.....

At the 120 fps frame rate of the Z9, there's very little if any subject that requires a global shutter. This includes action scenes in sports and wildlife.

As Thom Hogan's recent essay points out, what the Z9 is seriously missing is high speed RAW and tweaks to the Custom settings for better PreCapture and improved Instant Burst, besides what is not possible yet with Recall Shooting Function [Hold].

A FM Nikon forum thread on GS shared some useful links on GS in video; ---

https://www.cined.com/global-vs-rolling-shutter/

https://www.technexion.com/resources/global-shutter-vs-rolling-shutter-in-embedded-vision/
 
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The 120 fps is very nice, but it is only for one second, it then drops. Second disadvantage is that when the buffer is full, it takes like 40 second to clear.
Wrong on both.

Its shoots for ~1.6 seconds, generating 192 images of around 30MB each which will be written in about 8 seconds to any decent CFe-A card. Probably closer to 9 in the real world but still totally fine.
 
The 120 fps is very nice, but it is only for one second, it then drops. Second disadvantage is that when the buffer is full, it takes like 40 second to clear.
Wrong on both.

Its shoots for ~1.6 seconds, generating 192 images of around 30MB each which will be written in about 8 seconds to any decent CFe-A card. Probably closer to 9 in the real world but still totally fine.
Actually the files are approximately 5MB, they are lossy compressed raw.
 
The belated stacked sensors in Z flagship seems like an immediate obsolete after the debut of global sensors in A9iii.
Why? Global shutters also have drawbacks. There's no free lunch.
. It appears to me that stacked sensors will soon become standard for mid range cameras like next z5,6&7 when next z8&9 will equipped with global sensors.
Do you work for nikon? Or is this a guess? Because I don't see stacked sensors going to low end bodies for 2 generations.
Where did I say low end?
Well, in the l ine-up the Z5/Z6/Z7 (especially the Z5) in comparison to the Z8/Z9 are considered "low/end" in the FF line-up. It was implied, not explicitly stated. Generally when you consider "mid range" it usually is within the same class, which the Z5/Z6 are not really midrange but lower-end. Z7 is more mid-range....

My guess is most people consider sub-$2k cameras to be lower-end, $3k to be midrange and $4k+ to be "high end".

But I agree with ghostfox in that global shutters have their drawbacks, and currently that may be things like lower DR (and higher base ISO), and resolution limitations, among other things, and they have the strengths obviously as well. I would say we need to really wait about 3-5 years and then assess the playing field to see how global shutters stack up against the current breed of stacked sensors. It may be for the near future (3-5 years) it will be one or the other : global shutter at low res, or high res with a stacked sensor, but not both). This is unless Sony has this figured out and is just teasing with the A9 IIII and that the A1 II will have a 50MP global shutter, but I'm thinking maybe not. Likely the processing is a huge undertaking for a high-res sensor as many were anticipating the A9 III to be higher resolution (30-40MP at least).

--
NOTE: If I don't reply to a direct comment in the forums, it's likely I unsubscribed from the thread/article..
 
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The belated stacked sensors in Z flagship seems like an immediate obsolete after the debut of global sensors in A9iii.
Why? Global shutters also have drawbacks. There's no free lunch.
. It appears to me that stacked sensors will soon become standard for mid range cameras like next z5,6&7 when next z8&9 will equipped with global sensors.
Do you work for nikon? Or is this a guess? Because I don't see stacked sensors going to low end bodies for 2 generations.
Where did I say low end?
Well, in the l ine-up the Z5/Z6/Z7 (especially the Z5) in comparison to the Z8/Z9 are considered "low/end" in the FF line-up. It was implied, not explicitly stated. Generally when you consider "mid range" it usually is within the same class, which the Z5/Z6 are not really midrange but lower-end. Z7 is more mid-range....

My guess is most people consider sub-$2k cameras to be lower-end, $3k to be midrange and $4k+ to be "high end".
 
The belated stacked sensors in Z flagship seems like an immediate obsolete after the debut of global sensors in A9iii.
Why? Global shutters also have drawbacks. There's no free lunch.
. It appears to me that stacked sensors will soon become standard for mid range cameras like next z5,6&7 when next z8&9 will equipped with global sensors.
Do you work for nikon? Or is this a guess? Because I don't see stacked sensors going to low end bodies for 2 generations.
Where did I say low end?
Well, in the l ine-up the Z5/Z6/Z7 (especially the Z5) in comparison to the Z8/Z9 are considered "low/end" in the FF line-up. It was implied, not explicitly stated. Generally when you consider "mid range" it usually is within the same class, which the Z5/Z6 are not really midrange but lower-end. Z7 is more mid-range....

My guess is most people consider sub-$2k cameras to be lower-end, $3k to be midrange and $4k+ to be "high end".
This is basically the answer I'd give, though I'd say both the 6/7 lines fall into midrange, with the z5 being the low end (and arguing it isn't is... Well...). I'm not sure what you'd call the bottom of a market segment (in this case, ff z bodies) besides low end.
Yeah I mean it depends on where the cut-off is for mid-range. You're probably right since DPR even considers $2500 to be high-end in their recent camera buying guide. The Z5 is clearly on the lower-end as NIkon even advertises it as "entry level".
 
This is basically the answer I'd give, though I'd say both the 6/7 lines fall into midrange, with the z5 being the low end (and arguing it isn't is... Well...). I'm not sure what you'd call the bottom of a market segment (in this case, ff z bodies) besides low end.
Yeah I mean it depends on where the cut-off is for mid-range. You're probably right since DPR even considers $2500 to be high-end in their recent camera buying guide. The Z5 is clearly on the lower-end as NIkon even advertises it as "entry level".
 
This is basically the answer I'd give, though I'd say both the 6/7 lines fall into midrange, with the z5 being the low end (and arguing it isn't is... Well...). I'm not sure what you'd call the bottom of a market segment (in this case, ff z bodies) besides low end.
Yeah I mean it depends on where the cut-off is for mid-range. You're probably right since DPR even considers $2500 to be high-end in their recent camera buying guide. The Z5 is clearly on the lower-end as NIkon even advertises it as "entry level".
I think the way dpr probably accounts for low/mid/high end is based on the general consumer, and not how we necessarily look at it. 2500 is smack dab in the middle based on how companies are pricing gear these days (and inflation, relative to prior cameras).
Probably yes. I've generally gone based on my brackets though when discussing different levels of FF cameras (low/mid/high-end). I'm not saying it's the correct way or the only way.
 
The 120 fps is very nice, but it is only for one second, it then drops. Second disadvantage is that when the buffer is full, it takes like 40 second to clear.
Wrong on both.

Its shoots for ~1.6 seconds, generating 192 images of around 30MB each which will be written in about 8 seconds to any decent CFe-A card. Probably closer to 9 in the real world but still totally fine.
Actually the files are approximately 5MB, they are lossy compressed raw.
5MB would be truly amazing. Beeing only a third of JPEGs, that sounds a bit too good to be true.

ARW files from the A9III I could get so far contain 'Compressed RAW' (=lossy compression) as RAWFileType in their EXIF data and are 27-29MB in size.
 
Reading through numerous comments on Global vs. Stacked sensors; can't help but wonder if same people would have same comments if Global sensor was made by Nikon and it was Nikon A9iii vs. Sony Z9 / Z8 with stacked sensors.
I have seen some prideful posts elsewhere from Sony fans that are treating this a big win over the companies chasing them. I think it is probably human nature that some Nikon fans would do the same.

Even if this global sensor was a Nikon product, I wouldn't have much use for it. I don't have 6k laying around or the lenses needed to do it justice.
 
The 120 fps is very nice, but it is only for one second, it then drops. Second disadvantage is that when the buffer is full, it takes like 40 second to clear.
Wrong on both.

Its shoots for ~1.6 seconds, generating 192 images of around 30MB each which will be written in about 8 seconds to any decent CFe-A card. Probably closer to 9 in the real world but still totally fine.
Actually the files are approximately 5MB, they are lossy compressed raw.
5MB would be truly amazing. Beeing only a third of JPEGs, that sounds a bit too good to be true.

ARW files from the A9III I could get so far contain 'Compressed RAW' (=lossy compression) as RAWFileType in their EXIF data and are 27-29MB in size.
I think Sony will use something similar Nikon is using on Z8/9. The 45 MP raw files are as small as 20MB so using the same compression one can get close to 10MB for 24MP. Maybe 5MB is a stretch but that's something I've heard, might be wrong of course.
 
Actually the files are approximately 5MB, they are lossy compressed raw.
If accurate - I consider this a distinct limitation of what "Gen 1 Global" can achieve.

While Global records every line on a sensor at once (an electronic rolling shutter reads a few lines at a time) it seems current electronics (or whatever Sony plan to use) cannot get all the information from the Global shutter to the next stage as quickly as the "advertising" might want photographers to presume - falling some way short of fast enough to shoot 120 fps as full size RAW files.

Nikon Z9 got partially near and partially ahead of the Sony claimed achievement with a smaller than lossy compressed jpg file, also at120 fps - in the last quarter of 2021 - without the Sony under 2 seconds shooting time 120 fps limitation

Soon we may know what next generation high end Canon bodies are likely to achieve.

I expect future electronics advancements will remove whatever the apparent Sony internal bottleneck might be, thus moving beyond 120 fps jpg (high end Nikon) and beyond the apparently 120 fps lossy compressed Sony limitation.

Global is definitely an advance - though as many high end sports events images go remotely near instantly from the camera to a remote editor, a smaller easily readable jpg file may remain a preferred option for the 2024 Olympics.

Thom Hogan might like to comment on this supposition.
 
Actually the files are approximately 5MB, they are lossy compressed raw.
If accurate - I consider this a distinct limitation of what "Gen 1 Global" can achieve.

While Global records every line on a sensor at once (an electronic rolling shutter reads a few lines at a time) it seems current electronics (or whatever Sony plan to use) cannot get all the information from the Global shutter to the next stage as quickly as the "advertising" might want photographers to presume - falling some way short of fast enough to shoot 120 fps as full size RAW files.

Nikon Z9 got partially near and partially ahead of the Sony claimed achievement with a smaller than lossy compressed jpg file, also at120 fps - in the last quarter of 2021 - without the Sony under 2 seconds shooting time 120 fps limitation

Soon we may know what next generation high end Canon bodies are likely to achieve.

I expect future electronics advancements will remove whatever the apparent Sony internal bottleneck might be, thus moving beyond 120 fps jpg (high end Nikon) and beyond the apparently 120 fps lossy compressed Sony limitation.

Global is definitely an advance - though as many high end sports events images go remotely near instantly from the camera to a remote editor, a smaller easily readable jpg file may remain a preferred option for the 2024 Olympics.

Thom Hogan might like to comment on this supposition.
Compression will likely happen on the processor, not on the sensor. Sony demonstrated that they can readout 24 MP sensor in 1/160 s (which is sufficient to reach 120 fps) with A9 II already: https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/how-fast-is-the-sony-a9-electronic-shutter/

Readout part and moving the data from sensor to processor is not that different between sensors with rolling and global shutter. The difference is that with global shutter, you measure voltage/charge stored in analog memory while rolling shutter sensors measure it on photodiode directly.
 
As Thom Hogan's recent essay points out, what the Z9 is seriously missing is high speed RAW and tweaks to the Custom settings for better PreCapture and improved Instant Burst, besides what is not possible yet with Recall Shooting Function [Hold].
What is seriously missing is internal storage media which can keep up with output from processed sensor data without buffering. And of course buffers fill-up waiting on currently still to slow internal storage media.

Leaving need for very fast external storage media with very fast connection between camera and media. Say around 2.4 GB/s for 30-pics/s x 14-bits x 45-mp ??
 

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