Lenses not certified for 40mp …why exactly?

Pangolin99

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What’s not happening with lenses not on the ‘certified for 40mp’ list? What actual differences should I expect? Would I need to increase my exposure time to compensate, expect increased vignetting, aberrations, or a generally soft image across the frame? Physically, what’s going on? Has anyone tried a Viltrox lens on the X-T5 or X-H2?
 
What’s not happening with lenses not on the ‘certified for 40mp’ list?
There is no point at which Fuji said lenses were not certified for 40mp. We can stop here [but probably won't]
Then we can smile how wrong Fuji opinion is because they don't know performance of Fuji lenses
 
What’s not happening with lenses not on the ‘certified for 40mp’ list?
They are not bringing as much revenue compared to the lenses on the list.
What actual differences should I expect?
The nagging feeling that you should be using more expensive lenses.
Would I need to increase my exposure time to compensate, expect increased vignetting, aberrations, or a generally soft image across the frame?
No difference attributed to changing a 26 Mpx body to a 40 Mpx body.
Physically, what’s going on?
Nothing. Some lenses are better than others, nothing changed. The Mpx count of the sensor is irrelevant.
Has anyone tried a Viltrox lens on the X-T5 or X-H2?
 
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Optically speaking at the resolution of this kind of sensor its possible that the lines per inch resolved by the lens and the actual resolution of the sensor clash.
Possible? Do you have any evidence this IS the case?
That means practically the lens can't resolve in as high a resolution as the sensor can deliver.
It COULD, I guess, mean that. But it doesn’t mean [present tense] that, until or unless you can demonstrate it through suitable carefully conducted tests. By the way I have no expertise in this field. But I am sceptical when people make bold statements without backing them up.
This doesn't mean any old lens won't work. The metaphor would be a great signal into a poorer amp will still sound great just not 'as great' as it could have. In this case you'll get a great image with an old lens just not at the sensors full potential.
You’ve lost me here. Are you saying it’s great but could have been even better if Fuji hadn’t mismatched lenses and sensor? Which you’ve speculated about but not demonstrated in any way.
It'll likely even be better than with an older sensor. Newer lenses resolve highrr lpi and can extract the full detail of the new sensor.

I'll still buy an old lens or two I'll just buy them cheaper ✌️
I am speculating but I'm speculating having studied optical physics at degree level. I add that not as any kind of flex or rudeness just as a qualification of why I speculated. The resolution of materials is usually the reason why higher res sensors are a struggle with older lens designs.

Maybe a better analogy would have been saying its like trying to watch an 8k film on a 4k TV. Sure the picture will look great but it could have looked better. Looking at Fujis own site information as to why they only recommend some lenses and not others is sparse and some of their previously great lenses are omitted. Ones I'd use in a heartbeat.

Going back to my LPI resolving hypothesis it fits with what Fuji do say about centre sharpness versus corner to corner sharpness as issues poorer resolution like this get worse where light is less head on to the sensor. Around the edges this is always the case.

Again as you said this is hypothetical but based firmly in optical theory I'm aware of.

On the last point I'm not saying Fuji mismatched lens and sensor just that sensors have moved on and are now dense and very high resolution in terms of LPI. As a result lens design will move on also and improve with better designs, materials, coatings and corrections to compensate. It's kind of a golden age of photography tech and we all win. Our bank balance not so much though...
 
Optically speaking at the resolution of this kind of sensor its possible that the lines per inch resolved by the lens and the actual resolution of the sensor clash.
Possible? Do you have any evidence this IS the case?
That means practically the lens can't resolve in as high a resolution as the sensor can deliver.
It COULD, I guess, mean that. But it doesn’t mean [present tense] that, until or unless you can demonstrate it through suitable carefully conducted tests. By the way I have no expertise in this field. But I am sceptical when people make bold statements without backing them up.
This doesn't mean any old lens won't work. The metaphor would be a great signal into a poorer amp will still sound great just not 'as great' as it could have. In this case you'll get a great image with an old lens just not at the sensors full potential.
You’ve lost me here. Are you saying it’s great but could have been even better if Fuji hadn’t mismatched lenses and sensor? Which you’ve speculated about but not demonstrated in any way.
It'll likely even be better than with an older sensor. Newer lenses resolve highrr lpi and can extract the full detail of the new sensor.

I'll still buy an old lens or two I'll just buy them cheaper ✌️
I am speculating but I'm speculating having studied optical physics at degree level.
It would be great if you could expand a little on the underlying optical physics theory that explain the “clashing” between the lines per inch resolved by the lens and the resolution of the sensor.
I add that not as any kind of flex or rudeness just as a qualification of why I speculated. The resolution of materials is usually the reason why higher res sensors are a struggle with older lens designs.

Maybe a better analogy would have been saying its like trying to watch an 8k film on a 4k TV. Sure the picture will look great but it could have looked better. Looking at Fujis own site information as to why they only recommend some lenses and not others is sparse and some of their previously great lenses are omitted. Ones I'd use in a heartbeat.

Going back to my LPI resolving hypothesis it fits with what Fuji do say about centre sharpness versus corner to corner sharpness as issues poorer resolution like this get worse where light is less head on to the sensor. Around the edges this is always the case.

Again as you said this is hypothetical but based firmly in optical theory I'm aware of.

On the last point I'm not saying Fuji mismatched lens and sensor just that sensors have moved on and are now dense and very high resolution in terms of LPI. As a result lens design will move on also and improve with better designs, materials, coatings and corrections to compensate. It's kind of a golden age of photography tech and we all win. Our bank balance not so much though...
 
In the interests of accuracy, can we be clear.

Fuji have published a list of lenses which will give optimal results combined with the 40mp sensor.
The use of the term “optimal” is inapt here - it is neither an accurate nor a clear descriptor. “Optimal” would imply that images captured at either more or less than 40 MP would be somehow worse than those captured at 40 MP.
Yes you are right on that point. Wrong word. Does that negate what I am highlighting though?
I believe there isn’t a discrete threshold that a lens crosses and it can resolve a sensor. Were are looking at more like a continuous distribution.

Roger Cicala wrote a good article on the topic, though it may have been referenced elsewhere in the thread, as well.

The irony is that Fuji packaged the 40 MP camera with a lens (16-80) that wasn’t on the list.
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Nowhere have they indicated that older, or non-listed lenses will give poor results, should be avoided, or special treatment is needed.

A number of posters view that advice as a marketing ploy to promote new lenses. I don’t agree. They are of course fully entitled to this opinion, but shouldn’t exaggerate or distort it to something which it isn’t, or become unnecessarily indignant.

Fuji have issued some info or guidance. Use it as you see fit, or take it with a pinch of salt if that’s how you feel. I will continue using my 16-80 and 16mm prime with the larger sensor 😊. Happy New Year everyone.
 
What’s not happening with lenses not on the ‘certified for 40mp’ list? What actual differences should I expect? Would I need to increase my exposure time to compensate, expect increased vignetting, aberrations, or a generally soft image across the frame? Physically, what’s going on? Has anyone tried a Viltrox lens on the X-T5 or X-H2?
One of the first times I recall clearly hearing someone talk about resolving issues Lens and MP on a camera was watching the yTube reviewer Christopher Frost. In reference to a cropped Sensor Camera with 32MP from another brand. That being the last time I clearly recall him talking about such. I didn't fully get any real details then and I don't really see that being done yet in the case of Fuji's lens and cameras.

So Why wouldn't newly designed lens give better performance at higher MP counts then older lens not necessarily design for their latest sensors. Folks saying how the older lens will still do great are missing the point. Some want every last bit, no matter how big or little that is. Nor do I think this is just some marketing ploy on Fuji's part. Same can also be stated on the sensor itself, some are making claims about it which have not been fully vetted. Regardless, it's a work in progress.
 
The irony is that Fuji packaged the 40 MP camera with a lens (16-80) that wasn’t on the list.
Not ironic at all, the 16-80 is their current kit/travel lens and will work absolutely fine, the alternative would have been the much older 18-55 which is well-regarded but also not on the list.

For most of us, a camera/lens is a significant purchase and would be well researched beforehand, so anyone who does so can decide the 16-80 isn't for them and buy a body and lens separately.
 
What’s not happening with lenses not on the ‘certified for 40mp’ list?
They are not bringing as much revenue compared to the lenses on the list.
Very cynical viewpoint. Unjustified by the actual facts.
What actual differences should I expect?
The nagging feeling that you should be using more expensive lenses.
Really? I have the X-T5 and 2 lenses not listen. I’m not in the least worried or thinking of ditching those lenses.
Would I need to increase my exposure time to compensate, expect increased vignetting, aberrations, or a generally soft image across the frame?
No difference attributed to changing a 26 Mpx body to a 40 Mpx body.
Physically, what’s going on?
Nothing. Some lenses are better than others, nothing changed. The Mpx count of the sensor is irrelevant.
Has anyone tried a Viltrox lens on the X-T5 or X-H2?
 
The irony is that Fuji packaged the 40 MP camera with a lens (16-80) that wasn’t on the list.
Not ironic at all, the 16-80 is their current kit/travel lens and will work absolutely fine, the alternative would have been the much older 18-55 which is well-regarded but also not on the list.

For most of us, a camera/lens is a significant purchase and would be well researched beforehand, so anyone who does so can decide the 16-80 isn't for them and buy a body and lens separately.
Completely agree
 
It would be great if you could expand a little on the underlying optical physics theory that explain the “clashing” between the lines per inch resolved by the lens and the resolution of the sensor.
Trying to use an analogie again to explain. If you imagine taking a picture of a grid of black lines on a piece of white paper. Lets say they are 1cm appart and 0.1mm thick. In order to get that image to the sensor the lens must be able to optically transmit that through an array of lens elements with good enough clarity. In order to represent the optical image transmitted through the lens array the sensor must be capable of resolving the signal so a 0.1mm line must be large enough the individual sensor sites in the lens can represent it.

If we keep repeating the test but each time add an extra line in the grid and reduce the line thickness there will come a point where the line is so thin and the gaps between are so thin the information can't be represented by one pixel on the sensor so it begins to lose fidelity of information. We lose fine detail. The grid becomes a blob. As this is digital not analogue information this is more exactly quantifiable as the moment the detail dimensions and the sensor pixel dimensions match you begin to have a problem. As detail is smaller than individual sensor pixels it gets worse.

There also comes a point where due to lens micro distortions, defracrtions, boundary transitions (when light leaves edge of one lens and enters another) etc... The lens has the same kind of problem. It can't represent the fine detail. In a lenses case for 'analogue' reasons of the signal just being 'noisy' and fidelity being gradually reduced. Someone mentioned quite correctly this is not an on/off go/no go kind of thing just a gradual falling off of ability to resolve all Information.

Its also why I'd not worry using older lenses the sensor out resolving will not make the image worse. It'll just not fully exploit the sensors capability. Let's face it if you then print the ink soaks in the paper and slightly blurs and I never here people worrying about that 🙄

The area I worked in originally was how to help machines 'see' like we do in 3D so they can do tasks that need depth perception. It just left me thinking eyes are awesome designs and so are lenses for cameras. But the post process is very important for both eyes and robots 😉
 
This topic is joining equivalence and diffraction as a hardy perennial which provokes debatre, argument and less than helpful explanations sometimes just plain wrong.

Fuji's lenses are all OK, most are good, a few outstanding. Better lenses mean better IQ. More pixels will always mean better IQ and this will be more obvious the better the lens used and the more skilfully deployed.
 
Same goes for vignetting - a lens will exhibit the same level of corner darkening on 12, 24 and 40 mp - and for aberrations, they'll just be more visible at 100% on 40 mp.

Lenses that were great on 16 mp will still be great on 40 mp for most purposes, unless you're pixel peeping at 200% or printing super large and need that corner-to-corner sharpness for whatever reason. This also applies to third-party lenses.
If not pixel peeping at 100%, why need 40MP sensor?

Wish Fujifilm learn from Sony a7RV and Leica M11, provide different resolution RAW (optional smaller RAW).

DPreview explained Sony a7RV :

Small Raws

The a7R V offers a broader range of Raw file sizes, for circumstances in which large numbers of 60MP full-detail Raws would be overwhelming. In addition to the full, Uncompressed option, the camera can shoot Large, Medium or Small Lossless Compressed files. There's also the option of Sony's (slightly) damagingly lossy 'Compressed' Raw.

Medium and Small Raw files are downsampled versions of the full image. There's also the option to capture cropped APS-C Raws

The Medium and Small Raw files are 26MP and 15MP downsampled versions of the full image (so are presumably tonally lossless, not entirely spatially lossless), which therefore have more detail than images shot with 26 or 15MP cameras (see the Image Quality section below).

 
Same goes for vignetting - a lens will exhibit the same level of corner darkening on 12, 24 and 40 mp - and for aberrations, they'll just be more visible at 100% on 40 mp.

Lenses that were great on 16 mp will still be great on 40 mp for most purposes, unless you're pixel peeping at 200% or printing super large and need that corner-to-corner sharpness for whatever reason. This also applies to third-party lenses.
If not pixel peeping at 100%, why need 40MP sensor?

Wish Fujifilm learn from Sony a7RV and Leica M11, provide different resolution RAW (optional smaller RAW).
Somewhat off topic IMO. Might have been better to start a new thread.
 
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Same goes for vignetting - a lens will exhibit the same level of corner darkening on 12, 24 and 40 mp - and for aberrations, they'll just be more visible at 100% on 40 mp.

Lenses that were great on 16 mp will still be great on 40 mp for most purposes, unless you're pixel peeping at 200% or printing super large and need that corner-to-corner sharpness for whatever reason. This also applies to third-party lenses.
If not pixel peeping at 100%, why need 40MP sensor?

Wish Fujifilm learn from Sony a7RV and Leica M11, provide different resolution RAW (optional smaller RAW).
Somewhat off topic IMO
If old lens can't resolve 40MP sensor, Firmware should provide small RAW (26MP RAW) option. When consumer used 26MP RAW for old len, may get similar file size & IQ as 26MP sensor.

It better than old lens get 40MP RAW file size but 26MP IQ (or no good when pixel peeping at 100%).
 
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Same goes for vignetting - a lens will exhibit the same level of corner darkening on 12, 24 and 40 mp - and for aberrations, they'll just be more visible at 100% on 40 mp.

Lenses that were great on 16 mp will still be great on 40 mp for most purposes, unless you're pixel peeping at 200% or printing super large and need that corner-to-corner sharpness for whatever reason. This also applies to third-party lenses.
If not pixel peeping at 100%, why need 40MP sensor?

Wish Fujifilm learn from Sony a7RV and Leica M11, provide different resolution RAW (optional smaller RAW).
Somewhat off topic IMO
If old lens can't resolve 40MP sensor, Firmware should provide small RAW (26MP RAW) option. When consumer used 26MP RAW for old len, may get similar file size & IQ as 26MP sensor.

It better than old lens get 40MP RAW file size but 26MP IQ (or no good when pixel peeping at 100%).
No. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a camera with 40mp sensor.
 
Physically, what’s going on?
Nothing. Some lenses are better than others, nothing changed. The Mpx count of the sensor is irrelevant.
I think this a bit misleading. It's not "nothing". It is true to state that some lenses are better than others. That's always been true. It's true of Fuji's lens range today. And it cuts straight to the OP's question about lenses on Fuji's list and those not on the list. OTOH, if it were "nothing" and the mpx count of the sensor were irrelevant, no-one would make higher res sensors and no-one would buy them.

The following are all true
  • all lenses will work on the higher res sensor
  • no lens will perform worse on the higher res sensor
  • the poorer performers aren't suddenly going to achieve great improvement, and
  • those lenses capable of higher resolution will deliver more from the higher res sensor.
The linear improvement in going from 26mpx to 40mpx is around 24% or perhaps one print paper size for a large print at any given level of detail. Not as much as it may first appear.

I would agree that Fuji's list may have been influenced by marketing - some of the inclusions and omissions raise a few questions. OTOH, I don't think it's entirely about marketing. Most of the lenses that should be on the list are on the list, and most of the lenses that aren't there have probably been appropriately omitted.

Regards, Rod
 
Same goes for vignetting - a lens will exhibit the same level of corner darkening on 12, 24 and 40 mp - and for aberrations, they'll just be more visible at 100% on 40 mp.

Lenses that were great on 16 mp will still be great on 40 mp for most purposes, unless you're pixel peeping at 200% or printing super large and need that corner-to-corner sharpness for whatever reason. This also applies to third-party lenses.
If not pixel peeping at 100%, why need 40MP sensor?

Wish Fujifilm learn from Sony a7RV and Leica M11, provide different resolution RAW (optional smaller RAW).
Somewhat off topic IMO
If old lens can't resolve 40MP sensor, Firmware should provide small RAW (26MP RAW) option. When consumer used 26MP RAW for old len, may get similar file size & IQ as 26MP sensor.

It better than old lens get 40MP RAW file size but 26MP IQ (or no good when pixel peeping at 100%).
No. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a camera with 40mp sensor.
Thanks for good advice. However, less options in future if almost Fujifilm next camera (except X-H2s) use 40MP BSI-CMOS sensor.
 
Nowhere have they indicated that older, or non-listed lenses will give poor results, should be avoided, or special treatment is needed.

A number of posters view that advice as a marketing ploy to promote new lenses. I don’t agree. They are of course fully entitled to this opinion, but shouldn’t exaggerate or distort it to something which it isn’t, or become unnecessarily indignant.
Don't be naive. I big part of this is marketing. I wouldn't use a word like "ploy". This connotes that too much scheming is going on.

But Fujifilm is clearly saying "these are the best lenses" and that if you care about optimum performance these are the lenses you should buy. It's not a scheming ploy for Fujifilm to want you to buy their more expensive lenses.
 
But Fujifilm is clearly saying "these are the best lenses" and that if you care about optimum performance these are the lenses you should buy. It's not a scheming ploy for Fujifilm to want you to buy their more expensive lenses.
Some of them - heavier, larger and missing manual focus ring.
 
Nowhere have they indicated that older, or non-listed lenses will give poor results, should be avoided, or special treatment is needed.

A number of posters view that advice as a marketing ploy to promote new lenses. I don’t agree. They are of course fully entitled to this opinion, but shouldn’t exaggerate or distort it to something which it isn’t, or become unnecessarily indignant.
Don't be naive. I big part of this is marketing. I wouldn't use a word like "ploy". This connotes that too much scheming is going on.

But Fujifilm is clearly saying "these are the best lenses" and that if you care about optimum performance these are the lenses you should buy. It's not a scheming ploy for Fujifilm to want you to buy their more expensive lenses.
It is called marketing. Marketing is the art of half truths to pry the uninformed consumer's wallet open. Nothing wrong with that - it is the basis of capitalism. Like any publicly held company, it is Fuji's responsibility to its shareholders to make money. Now a company doesn't make much money but saying - "forget our best and newest most expensive lenses, you don't really need them to get the most out of our shiny new toys" - now do they?
 

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