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wow wow wow wait a second - did Canon just overtake Sony?

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River Photography said:
Filmore Eastman said:
River Photography said:
Filmore Eastman said:
River Photography said:
Filmore Eastman said:
joger said:
For this very reason I don‘t understand why anyone should be loyal to a certain brand like 99 % of the absolutely biased messages indicate.

I am feeling for the arguments in this thread - I did never belong to any fan club for camera - my intention was and is the best in technology and that changes over time.

reading through the postings makes me sad and worried - this is not an open forward thinking way.

I will buy whatever marks the image quality top notch - provided it is reasonable small and lightweight.

To date that was and still is Sony but tomorrow things might be different. Can’t see why I would stick to a 2nd best in class - been there and hated it - today money is no obstacle for me and more and I hardly understand why it ever was knowing that the biggest investment is the learning curve for gear and not the gear itself - you invest lifetime - that’s priceless
Click to expand...
No loyalty here. I simply have what I need: a camera with a good size & price, that makes excellent photos. I have lenses from 5 different brands that all work nicely on the camera. I don't even have Sony's latest cameras, and yet my photos are very satisfying. No need to look elsewhere.

Photographers have been making "top notch" photos for nearly two centuries, without Canon's latest camera.

Ever wonder why many great musicians play the same instruments for years and years? Because they are busy creating music, not busy keeping up with the latest gadget.
Click to expand...
cant agree there , ive just bought my daughter an EV evolve 30 column array pa for her solo live gigs :-) it blows her Fender amp away literally :-) and her new Australian made Pratley acoustic guitar is on another level compared to the old taylors,matons ect :-) i thought my Takamine 1990 electric acoustic was good, it needs to go into the bin :-(

Rp
Click to expand...
Watch Bruce Springsteen's recent interview with Howard Stern, in which he plays Takamine guitars. Bruce has a lot of guitars and can play virtually any guitar he wants. I think there's a lesson there.
Click to expand...
my guitar is a black dreadnought (the same as bon jovi played )where bruce is playing the cutaway. , cant help bruce is tone deaf LOL. seriously though,my daughters guitar is on another level , and the american high end pick ups installed are beautiful. i never imagined there would be so much difference ,but there is.

Rp
Click to expand...
I believe your daughter's guitar is on another level. However, if someone has a better guitar than Bruce Springsteen has, will they play better than Bruce Springsteen? Will they write better music? Will they evoke more feeling? Will more people hear them? Will they make more money? Will they have a bigger cultural impact? Or have a bigger place in musical history?

Or look at it another way, would Bruce Springsteen's success be greater if he used better guitars?

I'm not a musician so I'm not sure. I suspect the music is not about the guitar. At some point, a guitar is good enough, and other factors matter much more.
Click to expand...
Im not a fan of bruce springfield music even growing up in his era. never bought any of his albums. so i cant see a comparison here there are different genre's of music. gear is much better these days ,even old 1mill $ violins are garbage by todays standards, just ask a muso that plays them. He uses a black takamine in interviews because thats his image from the 80s 90s. they had state of the art electronics in them for there time thats why they used them on stage, but if your recording guitar you dont use the in guitar pick up system you use duel pencil type mics for stereo recording.

Rp

Im sure ansel adams could have taken a shot like this of a live mosquito :-)

1b98bfda40e84ad6a9dae53b4a4e719d.jpg
Click to expand...
It's notable that you avoided answering any of my questions. :)

To your point: Bruce Springsteen doesn't use the Takamine guitar "because that's his image". He literally makes music with it -- he plays some of his greatest songs -- as you can hear in the Howard Stern interview.

Now your daughter has a superior guitar to Bruce's, so presumably she writes better songs, and plays better, than Bruce Springsteen. Maybe she does, but I'm gonna guess it's not because of the guitar.
 
sportyaccordy said:
sportyaccordy said:
PNad wrote:
sportyaccordy said:
MILC man wrote:
sportyaccordy said:
sportyaccordy wrote:

Elaborate. How is the jump from 61 to 102 more useful than the jump from 24 to 33?
Click to expand...
you can't take anything that he says seriously.

the fact that a 102mp ff camera would be extremely expensive clearly never occurred to him, much less the simple concept of how mp count affects sensor readout speeds.

this entire thread is just another joger train wreck.
Click to expand...
How is readout speed and price the reason why 24 to 33 is more meaningful than 61 to 102 ?
Click to expand...
Can you answer my question first? :-)

--
Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/
Click to expand...
Your question is disingenuous. Nobody said anything about being "meaningful", so no one has any obligation to answer your question.
 
Filmore Eastman said:
River Photography said:
Filmore Eastman said:
River Photography said:
Filmore Eastman said:
River Photography said:
Filmore Eastman said:
joger said:
For this very reason I don‘t understand why anyone should be loyal to a certain brand like 99 % of the absolutely biased messages indicate.

I am feeling for the arguments in this thread - I did never belong to any fan club for camera - my intention was and is the best in technology and that changes over time.

reading through the postings makes me sad and worried - this is not an open forward thinking way.

I will buy whatever marks the image quality top notch - provided it is reasonable small and lightweight.

To date that was and still is Sony but tomorrow things might be different. Can’t see why I would stick to a 2nd best in class - been there and hated it - today money is no obstacle for me and more and I hardly understand why it ever was knowing that the biggest investment is the learning curve for gear and not the gear itself - you invest lifetime - that’s priceless
Click to expand...
No loyalty here. I simply have what I need: a camera with a good size & price, that makes excellent photos. I have lenses from 5 different brands that all work nicely on the camera. I don't even have Sony's latest cameras, and yet my photos are very satisfying. No need to look elsewhere.

Photographers have been making "top notch" photos for nearly two centuries, without Canon's latest camera.

Ever wonder why many great musicians play the same instruments for years and years? Because they are busy creating music, not busy keeping up with the latest gadget.
Click to expand...
cant agree there , ive just bought my daughter an EV evolve 30 column array pa for her solo live gigs :-) it blows her Fender amp away literally :-) and her new Australian made Pratley acoustic guitar is on another level compared to the old taylors,matons ect :-) i thought my Takamine 1990 electric acoustic was good, it needs to go into the bin :-(

Rp
Click to expand...
Watch Bruce Springsteen's recent interview with Howard Stern, in which he plays Takamine guitars. Bruce has a lot of guitars and can play virtually any guitar he wants. I think there's a lesson there.
Click to expand...
my guitar is a black dreadnought (the same as bon jovi played )where bruce is playing the cutaway. , cant help bruce is tone deaf LOL. seriously though,my daughters guitar is on another level , and the american high end pick ups installed are beautiful. i never imagined there would be so much difference ,but there is.

Rp
Click to expand...
I believe your daughter's guitar is on another level. However, if someone has a better guitar than Bruce Springsteen has, will they play better than Bruce Springsteen? Will they write better music? Will they evoke more feeling? Will more people hear them? Will they make more money? Will they have a bigger cultural impact? Or have a bigger place in musical history?

Or look at it another way, would Bruce Springsteen's success be greater if he used better guitars?

I'm not a musician so I'm not sure. I suspect the music is not about the guitar. At some point, a guitar is good enough, and other factors matter much more.
Click to expand...
Im not a fan of bruce springfield music even growing up in his era. never bought any of his albums. so i cant see a comparison here there are different genre's of music. gear is much better these days ,even old 1mill $ violins are garbage by todays standards, just ask a muso that plays them. He uses a black takamine in interviews because thats his image from the 80s 90s. they had state of the art electronics in them for there time thats why they used them on stage, but if your recording guitar you dont use the in guitar pick up system you use duel pencil type mics for stereo recording.

Rp

Im sure ansel adams could have taken a shot like this of a live mosquito :-)

1b98bfda40e84ad6a9dae53b4a4e719d.jpg
Click to expand...
It's notable that you avoided answering any of my questions. :)

To your point: Bruce Springsteen doesn't use the Takamine guitar "because that's his image". He literally makes music with it -- he plays some of his greatest songs -- as you can hear in the Howard Stern interview.

Now your daughter has a superior guitar to Bruce's, so presumably she writes better songs, and plays better, than Bruce Springsteen. Maybe she does, but I'm gonna guess it's not because of the guitar.
Click to expand...
wrong :-)

Man ,how to raise a child to there best potential. you buy them good quality affordable gear and let them become the best they can continuing or not in there chosen endeavours. top tennis rackets. top netball shoes, the best ballet shoes and the best musical instruments, without the right tools a child will never reach their true potential physically or mentally. and of course the most important tool is the parents commitment and support of a childs dreams and aspirations. when i took my daughter for a surprise shopping spree for guitars, we went to the top guitar shops with the highest quality hand made guitars to pick from, She walked out the shop with her dream guitar and the inspiration to pick it up and write music has increased 10 fold and so have her bookings. BTW Takamine wasnt even on her list, just saying :-)

Rp

edit: and btw his 40 yold guitar is retro fitted with the latest electronic pick-up/ pre-amp as his new guitar :-)
 
Last edited:
tqlla said:
PNad said:
tqlla said:
joger said:
georgehakim said:
Compared to the A7iv, it has faster burst speed (12 vs 10), but that is on 24mp images compared to the Sony 33mp. Other than that, there isn’t much that tempt switching.
Click to expand...
in my discussion about the lackluster A7R V many keep telling me that resolution does not count?

102 MP is useless compare to 60 MP but the tiny step from 24 to 33 matters?
Click to expand...
A jump from 24 to 33 is a more useful jump than 61 to 102MP.
Its like comparing 2 pieces of chicken to 3 pieces. You might want that third piece.
But 6 pieces of chicken vs 10 pieces.... you will probably be full by the time you finish the 6th piece.
Click to expand...
24 to 33 more useful jump than 61 to 102. Seriously DPreview needs some forum post awards of the year, you would take comedy hands down.
Click to expand...
Its already explained. When you are full, you dont need more chicken.
What I am saying is that 61MP is more than enough for almost everyone.

24MP.... there will be times where users wish they could crop in a little more. Just like there will be times where you wish you ordered that 3rd piece of chicken.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I thought your chicken analogy was very clear. There is a difference in increasing the resolution by the same x% when you are at let’s say 12 meg vs 24 meg vs 61meg. There is a point when it becomes totally meaningless because people just don’t need or even want the increased resolution.
 
Malling said:
joger said:
The Em*p*ire Strikes Back

you know me - I am a huge fan of technological superior solutions independent from manufacture. I like the recent Hasselblad H2D for the sensor and the Alpha one for it's PhotoJournalist approach and the A7R IV for it's leadership in resolution and the GM lenses for being 2nd to none in the market.

What Canon just did with the R6 II is nothing but a clear competition note to all other MILC manufactures.

Not only did they bring a new camera but also my most beloved focal length with built in IS

So what did we get?
  1. R6 II - A7 IV competition on steroids>> * 40 fps in electronic shutter mode and 12 fps in mechanical shutter mode
    • advanced AF
    • ISO 204 k
    • 4k60p video
    • battery life + 50 %
    • price level of the A7 IV
  2. RF 135 f/1.8>> * built in IS
    • 935 g
    • price level of the GM 135
  3. Rumors for a 90 MP camera
Out of a sudden Canon seem to have eliminated most of my critique points and delivers lots of interesting products that are not only similarly attractive in specs but nothing short but outstanding in specs.

YES - reviews will proof the real world quality but from what I am seeing Canon did just deliver an amazing firework of nice things at a reasonable pricing level.

Now let's wait for the high res body and I might be tempted to swing back again - will have an interesting discussion with the photo dealer of my least mistrust whether I could trade in my Sony gear next year in case we'll get a high res body from Canon.

Not really my intention but I did not think Canon would tick most or all of the boxes that interest me.

Looks like the Canon engineers have not been sitting on their hands for the past two years.

What do you guys think?

I guess I am not the only one that had switched from the lazy Canon guys to the innovative and fast moving Sony team. Their recent slow down in comparison is visible for me - it's not day and night as before with Canon vs. Sony but within that short period of time Canon proofs that things can change eventually.

Especially the RF 135 is a really attractive offering
Click to expand...
40fps in a none stacked sensor body not particularly useful for loads of stuff, I have incredibly hard seeing what one would use it for when it’s useless for round objects, bats/rackets etc. Even motorcycle and cars to often get incredibly distorted on electronic, flapping birds wings equally so, meaning you end in lots of situations with the mechanical. What ever remains in “fast” action isn’t usually a problem with the 8-12fps. AF is like what we now have with the Sony A7RV it’s minor step forward compared to the generation before, but as with Sony it’s a even more a minor step compared to other newer bodies. Battery life well at least they sorted that out. The biggest thing is the none cropped 4k60 the rest is kinda incremental improvement and look more impressive in specs then real life on the level Sony did going from A7Riv to A7RV.

Unfortunately FSI with noise reduction, but overall fine camera but a different route then Sony followed with A7iv and it has compromises as well as is to be expected but 24mp in 2022 isn’t really convincing me, again nothing against it but I kinda feel about this camera as you feel about the A7RV.

I generally don’t trust Canon Rumour they tend to overhype stuff, R6ii was rumour to have a stacked sensor, the R3 a global shutter and a 100mp been rumoured long… I will see it before I believe in it.

The Canon 135 is probably the most interesting bit with its IS. But optically nor AF I doubt it’s going to be better then the GM, so it’s mostly a gain in panning otherwise not really. But good for Canon shooters they finally get what I view as a fundamental lens unfortunately it’s utterly overpriced €2900 where I live the €1700 of the GM look like a bargain in comparison.
Click to expand...
I don’t want 40fps but I want a faster readout for the e-shutter. To get increased fps I assumed Canon managed to get a faster readout which will help a lot. Honestly I won’t switch but I am happy that r6 is so good as Sony really needs a wake up call
 
Last edited:
John Carson said:
sportyaccordy said:
PNad said:
MILC man said:
sportyaccordy said:
Elaborate. How is the jump from 61 to 102 more useful than the jump from 24 to 33?
Click to expand...
you can't take anything that he says seriously.

the fact that a 102mp ff camera would be extremely expensive clearly never occurred to him, much less the simple concept of how mp count affects sensor readout speeds.

this entire thread is just another joger train wreck.
Click to expand...
How is readout speed and price the reason why 24 to 33 is more meaningful than 61 to 102 ?
Click to expand...
Can you answer my question first? :-)
Click to expand...
Your question is disingenuous. Nobody said anything about being "meaningful", so no one has any obligation to answer your question.
Click to expand...
Your pedantry is disingenuous. The core of my question hasn't changed. I'll ask AGAIN. "Elaborate. How is the jump from 61 to 102 more useful than the jump from 24 to 33?"
 
This must be the first time I ever heard anyone give credit to Springsteen ability on a guitar, it’s probably one of the worst analogy I seen in a long time. There like a whole bunch of better guitarist out there.
 
... it is Canon. :)
 
sportyaccordy said:
  • sportyaccordy wrote:
John Carson said:
sportyaccordy said:
PNad said:
MILC man said:
sportyaccordy said:
Elaborate. How is the jump from 61 to 102 more useful than the jump from 24 to 33?
Click to expand...
you can't take anything that he says seriously.

the fact that a 102mp ff camera would be extremely expensive clearly never occurred to him, much less the simple concept of how mp count affects sensor readout speeds.

this entire thread is just another joger train wreck.
Click to expand...
How is readout speed and price the reason why 24 to 33 is more meaningful than 61 to 102 ?
Click to expand...
Can you answer my question first? :-)
Click to expand...
Your question is disingenuous. Nobody said anything about being "meaningful", so no one has any obligation to answer your question.
Click to expand...
Your pedantry is disingenuous. The core of my question hasn't changed. I'll ask AGAIN. "Elaborate. How is the jump from 61 to 102 more useful than the jump from 24 to 33?"
Click to expand...
 
alantan said:
Malling said:
joger said:
The Em*p*ire Strikes Back

you know me - I am a huge fan of technological superior solutions independent from manufacture. I like the recent Hasselblad H2D for the sensor and the Alpha one for it's PhotoJournalist approach and the A7R IV for it's leadership in resolution and the GM lenses for being 2nd to none in the market.

What Canon just did with the R6 II is nothing but a clear competition note to all other MILC manufactures.

Not only did they bring a new camera but also my most beloved focal length with built in IS

So what did we get?
  1. R6 II - A7 IV competition on steroids>> * 40 fps in electronic shutter mode and 12 fps in mechanical shutter mode
    • advanced AF
    • ISO 204 k
    • 4k60p video
    • battery life + 50 %
    • price level of the A7 IV
  2. RF 135 f/1.8>> * built in IS
    • 935 g
    • price level of the GM 135
  3. Rumors for a 90 MP camera
Out of a sudden Canon seem to have eliminated most of my critique points and delivers lots of interesting products that are not only similarly attractive in specs but nothing short but outstanding in specs.

YES - reviews will proof the real world quality but from what I am seeing Canon did just deliver an amazing firework of nice things at a reasonable pricing level.

Now let's wait for the high res body and I might be tempted to swing back again - will have an interesting discussion with the photo dealer of my least mistrust whether I could trade in my Sony gear next year in case we'll get a high res body from Canon.

Not really my intention but I did not think Canon would tick most or all of the boxes that interest me.

Looks like the Canon engineers have not been sitting on their hands for the past two years.

What do you guys think?

I guess I am not the only one that had switched from the lazy Canon guys to the innovative and fast moving Sony team. Their recent slow down in comparison is visible for me - it's not day and night as before with Canon vs. Sony but within that short period of time Canon proofs that things can change eventually.

Especially the RF 135 is a really attractive offering
Click to expand...
40fps in a none stacked sensor body not particularly useful for loads of stuff, I have incredibly hard seeing what one would use it for when it’s useless for round objects, bats/rackets etc. Even motorcycle and cars to often get incredibly distorted on electronic, flapping birds wings equally so, meaning you end in lots of situations with the mechanical. What ever remains in “fast” action isn’t usually a problem with the 8-12fps. AF is like what we now have with the Sony A7RV it’s minor step forward compared to the generation before, but as with Sony it’s a even more a minor step compared to other newer bodies. Battery life well at least they sorted that out. The biggest thing is the none cropped 4k60 the rest is kinda incremental improvement and look more impressive in specs then real life on the level Sony did going from A7Riv to A7RV.

Unfortunately FSI with noise reduction, but overall fine camera but a different route then Sony followed with A7iv and it has compromises as well as is to be expected but 24mp in 2022 isn’t really convincing me, again nothing against it but I kinda feel about this camera as you feel about the A7RV.

I generally don’t trust Canon Rumour they tend to overhype stuff, R6ii was rumour to have a stacked sensor, the R3 a global shutter and a 100mp been rumoured long… I will see it before I believe in it.

The Canon 135 is probably the most interesting bit with its IS. But optically nor AF I doubt it’s going to be better then the GM, so it’s mostly a gain in panning otherwise not really. But good for Canon shooters they finally get what I view as a fundamental lens unfortunately it’s utterly overpriced €2900 where I live the €1700 of the GM look like a bargain in comparison.
Click to expand...
I don’t want 40fps but I want a faster readout for the e-shutter. To get increased fps I assumed Canon managed to get a faster readout which will help a lot. Honestly I won’t switch but I am happy that r6 is so good as Sony really needs a wake up call
Click to expand...
 
Currently I am using Sony a7IV with some G and GM lens.

One and only thing I love more in Canon case is better ergonomics. a7IV is somehow too small in my hands. Ok I bought SmallRig plate to make mu grip bigger but still my personal preference goes to Canon RF system. And that's all where is Canon better.

Color reproduction:

Generally speaking, I like more a7IV color rendition. Sony gives me better skin tones especially in shadows when Canon tends to wash up warm skin tones. a7IV has better AWB in mixed light situations. I really love how Sony renders blues, reds and greens. Again, I am talking here about a7IV.

Image quality:

Difference is not big as before, but Sony sensors has still advantage. It is fantastic how Sony sensor preserving colors through whole ISO range. That was first thing that completely blows me away when I start using a7IV.

Body customization:

Sony is by far better. With 4 custom buttons and custom wheels you can perfectly fit camera to your shooting needs. It's simply fantastic. New Sony menu system is very well organized but with all those custom buttons and wheels you don't have too many reasons to search deep into menus.

AF

Compared with R5 and R6 models I can't say that there are any noticeable differences. Both systems are fantastic in terms of AF.

Video:

Big advantage for Sony there.

Lens:

Oh well... Here, difference is HUUUUUUGE and Canon isn't nowhere near Sony. There is still dramatic small number of native RF lenses and Canon is permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. That means every Canon user is condemned to forcingly use of Canon's RF glass. For me that is unacceptable. And RF lenses in most cases are too big and too heavy compared with Sony GM optics while is nothing better in terms of image quality. That is second big advantage for me.

So, for me, whatever lens or body Canon going to release cannot replace the shortcomings I mentioned above.

All the best

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Dusko Jovic / DuxX /
https://duskojovic.pixieset.com/showroom/
 
Last edited:
Canon is NOT permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. Why folks keep spreading this Myth is clearly obvious.
 
BackToNature1 said:
Canon is NOT permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. Why folks keep spreading this Myth is clearly obvious.
Click to expand...
No and i can guess once they have filled the lens range with canon lenses they will open up to 3rd party ,but as of now there is not a lot of 3rd party choice in rf mount ,this might get accelerated once canon users start moaning or leaving for other manufacturers same for nikon .
 
BackToNature1 said:
Canon is NOT permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. Why folks keep spreading this Myth is clearly obvious.
Click to expand...
The permanence of the closure is irrelevant. The point is RF is closed off from 3rd parties for the foreseeable future. Buying into RF with the hopes that they will open the system up soon would be a huge mistake. I did that and thankfully got out of Canon RF without losing too much money.

--

Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/
 
BackToNature1 said:
Canon is NOT permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. Why folks keep spreading this Myth is clearly obvious.
Click to expand...
Really? Maybe I missed something... Is there any Canon statement that suggest when their users can expect "opening"?
 
sportyaccordy said:
BackToNature1 said:
Canon is NOT permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. Why folks keep spreading this Myth is clearly obvious.
Click to expand...
The permanence of the closure is irrelevant. The point is RF is closed off from 3rd parties for the foreseeable future. Buying into RF with the hopes that they will open the system up soon would be a huge mistake. I did that and thankfully got out of Canon RF without losing too much money.
Click to expand...
What is or isn't irrelevant differs for everyone. I never buy into any system with a Hope and Prayer of what they might do. I do buy based on what they already have available in the system. I also suspect outside of any new major FF announcement between Canon, Nikon, or Sony. Canon latest FF camera will be the Best Seller over the next 6 month, at a bare min.

As it currently stands, I would say that Both Sony, Fuji and Canon have solid releases this year while Nikon an others better raise their game, an soon. Nikon can't rest on their success with the Z9 while their other offerings are getting ripped to shreds.
 
BackToNature1 said:
sportyaccordy said:
BackToNature1 said:
Canon is NOT permanently closed for 3rd party manufacturers. Why folks keep spreading this Myth is clearly obvious.
Click to expand...
The permanence of the closure is irrelevant. The point is RF is closed off from 3rd parties for the foreseeable future. Buying into RF with the hopes that they will open the system up soon would be a huge mistake. I did that and thankfully got out of Canon RF without losing too much money.
Click to expand...
What is or isn't irrelevant differs for everyone. I never buy into any system with a Hope and Prayer of what they might do. I do buy based on what they already have available in the system. I also suspect outside of any new major FF announcement between Canon, Nikon, or Sony. Canon latest FF camera will be the Best Seller over the next 6 month, at a bare min.

As it currently stands, I would say that Both Sony, Fuji and Canon have solid releases this year while Nikon an others better raise their game, an soon. Nikon can't rest on their success with the Z9 while their other offerings are getting ripped to shreds.
Click to expand...

i think people here give too much importance to video specs, but highly doubt many do video.

That being the case, I don’t think many will choose FF 4k60 vídeo over 11+ megapixels for stills.
 
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