Sony's A7RIV 61mp sensor

I would prefer to haven't seen even the rumor.

In my opinion 42-47 MP sensors used by high resolution FF cameras is the highest usable ones. Increasing resolution is not so much usable as even if you need to crop further you get increased noise and less IQ due to the lens ability to meet this increased resolution.

The difference also on how much you can crop is not huge. But in my opinion the penalties paid on file size and all other characteristics (increased rolling shutter, cropping on video, no improvement on FPS) make it even that less appealing in reality.

I would prefer to keep the MP as it was and make improvements on FPS, rolling shutter produced noise and DR.

Resolution Example 1

Resolution Example 2

Resolution Example 3

Cropping Example 1

Cropping Example 2
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800
No, they used the same Sony sensor as Nikon used in the D800 (in contrast to what was claimed in the post I responded to). The same sensor was also used by Pentax so it appears to be for sale to anybody wishing to buy it from Sony
From DPR review of the D800 in 2012

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor that boasts 36.8 million pixels in total, with a maximum effective output of 36.3MP. Its ISO span is 100-6400 natively, expandable to a range of 50 ('Lo1') to 25,600 ('Hi2') equivalent. Nikon's highest resolution DSLR to date"
Sorry, but Nikon does not develop Sony sensors.
I'm sure Nikon has contributed to the development of Sony sensors, whether it be the cost of development or some actual R&D they shared with Sony, so to say Nikon does not develop Sony sensors is not completely true. They help, no doubt, and in doing so they help to build up their competition. It's been happening for more than ten years, and in another 15 or 20 years it could bring their own demise. It's really too late to stop the inevitable now. Do you see any Nikon video cameras out there? Canon will be able to compete. Canon is actually a bigger company than Sony, and Canon has their own chip fabs, if I'm not mistaken, like Panasonic, but Nikon doesn't, as far as I know, and for all we know Nikon never will. They may find that Toshiba will make a better supplier for them some day though, or Dongbu Hitek, or some Chinese supplier, so it could be that Nikon will survive. After-all, no company can do everything. I just hope Nikon makes a camera with more resolution than the 45 MP Z7 soon, and maybe I'll buy it. I love my D810, but I'm just not thinking the step up to the Z7 would make much sense. I'd really love to see a 72 MP sensor (twice what I have now) in a camera with a real electronic shutter and full-width 4Kp60 video. (Panasonic has been offering 4Kp60 video for years now, so Nikon could do it too, I'm sure.)
 
I would prefer to haven't seen even the rumor.

In my opinion 42-47 MP sensors used by high resolution FF cameras is the highest usable ones. Increasing resolution is not so much usable as even if you need to crop further you get increased noise and less IQ due to the lens ability to meet this increased resolution.

The difference also on how much you can crop is not huge. But in my opinion the penalties paid on file size and all other characteristics (increased rolling shutter, cropping on video, no improvement on FPS) make it even that less appealing in reality.

I would prefer to keep the MP as it was and make improvements on FPS, rolling shutter produced noise and DR.

Resolution Example 1

Resolution Example 2

Resolution Example 3

Cropping Example 1

Cropping Example 2
Not me. I want twice what I have now, and THEN they can stick there, speeding up things and improving noise performance. Look what happened with the D800 vs the D700. The nosie is not a problem. The extra resolution is well worthwhile. If you want a cleaner picture buy a lower resolution camera (Z7 or Z6), but with imroved tech and noise reduction a 72 MP sensor will produce spectacular images about as good as what can be had from the Z6 up to ISO 6400. If you shoot over ISO 6400 a lot the 72 MP Z8 just won't be for you, but maybe the 40 MP Z9 will be.

;)

P.S. The Z9 will have all the speed you want, with its 40 fps crop mode, super-deep 150 raw frame buffer, insane dual XQD card slots and third UHS-II card slot, and its new 6 million dot, HDR, 120 HZ, tilting viewfinder. Oh, and its 3.5" fully-articulating touch screen and GPS will just be icing on the cake.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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You're right except for one thing. When it comes to Nikon Products; Nikon is the dog; Sony is the tail. The Sony chip manufacturing co. has to satisfy its customers, not the other way around. How many times have we heard that Nikon designs its sensors, and contracts the designs out to manufacturers? Sony is one of those manufacturers --
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
Hmmm, I'd say, both are dogs and tails :-)

The basic sensor development is mostly driven by other industries - mainly smartphones, but increasingly industrial/automotive cameras etc. - because there is much more money involved as in digital still cameras (DSLR/MILC etc.).

One example: stacked sensor technology was developed for smartphones already around 2012:

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201208/12-107E/index.html

Nikon is not so much into that smartphone market, but they rely on the basic developments and excellent sensors from Sony Semiconductors. It's cheaper than running their own sensor R&D department
You need to look at this article, they do have their own sensor R&D lab, You will find out that they designed their D850 sensor with low iso of 50 and find it was not for landscape photographers.

Nikon design lab
You mean where it says, "Sanbongi-san told me that they developed the D850’s true ISO 64 capability in response to requests from motor-sports shooters, who wanted to shoot at large apertures and slow shutter speeds, so they could pan to follow the race cars while dramatically motion-blurring the background." Right?
(have a look at Canon, who are not doing so well sensor-wise...)

OTOH Nikon was way ahead of camera development compared to Sony until recently. Sony had to catch up with their development - so the next years will be challenging for all of them...

All that is good news for us customers: we have many companies competing in a challenging market, out comes a lot of new developments and good prices...

If Sony haven't screwed up the market with the Alphas, we would have to wait for a Nikon mirrorless for another century :-D

C:
 
The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
what kind of faults in the Z-system you mean? The Canon RF lenses are not better - eg than a 24-70 f2.8S - and the lens roadmap of the Z will fill the gaps in 12-18 months ...
No,they're not. However the Nikon 2.8s is the only pro level lens the Z line has. Canon has a 50 1.2, two 85 1.2, a 28-70 f2, who's build quality is designed to take beating and keep on ticking, already announced. The case can be made, that Nikon's S line has excellent characteristics, but most of the offerings cannot be considered Nikon pro line. Many are awaiting the 1.4s which would be considered a pro line of primes. Personally I do not consider the 1.8s primes, or the f4 zooms to be professional grade, but they are certainly excellent lenses. The Nikon 58 f.095 Noct, which could be considered professional, it is nothing more than a phantom product that was announced months ago, hasn't materialized. Nikon chose to go after the prosumer market, rather than the pro market with their Z cameras and lenses. Canon is choosing to go after the pro market with its lens offerings. Nikon will get there, but after Canon, and of course Sony. I believe they chose to do this in a total reversal of their product philosophy. In the past, the lead Nikon product has always been their top line camera, mated with a professional grade lens. The F, the F2, ...the D1, ...D3. The D1 series was mated with the 17-35 f2.8 AF-S, The D3, was mated with the 24-70 f2.8. But the Z7 has the 24-70 f4??? They're hedging their bet on mirrorless.
I feel exactly opposite to what you said. It is actually Canon which has a mismatch in its line up. Pro lenses and basic bodies. Nikon is consistent in its prosumer offering and it is good enough to be used by many professionals in their line of work.

The people using Canon R system are only Canon users who added one to their existing Canon kit. However there are several on this forum whom nikon was successful in converting (myself included, but I am an enthusiast).
Neither of them are truly competing in mirrorless yet. They want people to buy what they make now, and if they invest too heavily in mirrorless now, they will kill their DSLR lines of cameras and lenses. At least that's what I think they're thinking. It would make sense, but frankly they need to make some more DLSR bodies and lenses, so they can reassure their DSLR loving customer base that they are not giving up on the future of the DSLR. They need to keep developing mirrorless too, of course, but if they just plan to sit on their laurels, not developing either system, and counting on customers to make their decisions for them, then that's just plain folley. Sony isn't sitting around and waiting. Neither is Panasonic. By the time Nikon and Canon react to the Sony juggernaught, it could be too late, and half the mirrorless market could be filled with Sony and Panasonic lovers. Panasonic has a huge advantage, in that they have the support and participation of Leica and Sigma in the L mount Alliance. Sony has a huge head start over all the others. Those two facts will mean that Nikon and Canon will be playing catch up for a long, long time, if they do what I think they're doing . . . sitting back, and watching how people react to their pathetic entry into the full-frame mirrorless market (so far). Both Nikon and Canon need to make lenses and bodies for their mirrorless customers, and they need to do it fast. Nikon has two whole bodies. That's sad, a year after they launched those. They have seven lenses, and not the 50mm f0.95 that they promised. Hmmm . . .

Nikon and Canon need to get serious about mirrorless, but it seems pretty obvious they're not, and that will drive people to buy Sony and Panasonic mirrorless cameras. That trend will continue, and it will be very difficult for Nikon and Canon to fix the problem.

Then again, maybe Nikon and Canon made a pact to bring competition into the marketplace, because they figured they were stagnating, and without competition the whole Japanese camera industry will be caught off guard, when the Chinese enter it in a big way in a few years. They're already doing quite well in the lens business, and as they start making cameras, they'll begin to compete. We know what the Chinese can do with price wars. They make iPhones, MacBooks, the Nikon D850, and some of the best lenses out there already (i.e. the Nikon 85mm f1.4 G and some of the Mitakon wide aperture beasts). Maybe the Japanese government got involved, and they made a pact for there to be four big players, rather than two, so marketing Japanese brands would become the way of the future, rather than manufacturing superior products, because they know they can't compete in the superior product market, and they plan to do all their manufacturing in China, but make a profit by building their brands, and twice as many brands means twice as much success in that way.
 
I would prefer to haven't seen even the rumor.

In my opinion 42-47 MP sensors used by high resolution FF cameras is the highest usable ones. Increasing resolution is not so much usable as even if you need to crop further you get increased noise and less IQ due to the lens ability to meet this increased resolution.

The difference also on how much you can crop is not huge. But in my opinion the penalties paid on file size and all other characteristics (increased rolling shutter, cropping on video, no improvement on FPS) make it even that less appealing in reality.

I would prefer to keep the MP as it was and make improvements on FPS, rolling shutter produced noise and DR.

Resolution Example 1

Resolution Example 2

Resolution Example 3

Cropping Example 1

Cropping Example 2
Not me. I want twice what I have now, and THEN they can stick there, speeding up things and improving noise performance. Look what happened with the D800 vs the D700. The nosie is not a problem. The extra resolution is well worthwhile. If you want a cleaner picture buy a lower resolution camera (Z7 or Z6), but with imroved tech and noise reduction a 72 MP sensor will produce spectacular images about as good as what can be had from the Z6 up to ISO 6400. If you shoot over ISO 6400 a lot the 72 MP Z8 just won't be for you, but maybe the 40 MP Z9 will be.

;)
The movement from D700 to D800 (3x more MP) cannot be compared with what we see now and beyond (1,42x more MP). There are always some relative gains regarding resolution, cropping, noise and IQ. Do not forget that as you get increased resolution you either get more image details or you can crop more.

But how much can be the perceivable detail given a relation with the presentation? Its like comparing Full HD and 4K smartphones. Yes you can say that you see a difference between a Full HD and a 4K TV. But I doubt you will see so much improvement comparing 4K and 8K. Only really large monitor will be improved. I would say 80" and beyond.

Also do you remember the FF and APS-C debate? The cropping factor kicks in and you end up with even more noise as you crop. I do not talk about cropping the same amount on images taken from sensors with different resolution. "Digital zoom" has its limit given a specific sensor size.

Lens development is also not as progressive as sensor technology. It is easier to have visible aberrations as you crop. Also to get even better results from lenses you mostly end up with larger lenses. An f/1.4 lens cannot become smaller and keep the same image quality. Physics play a huge role in this segment. Even temperature and moisture can affect the ending result.
 
The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
The tail doesn't wag the dog, their next step whatever it is will be governed by Sony.
Thats silly. Sony will make whatever Nikon is willing to pay for as long as they have the tech to do it.
And yet Nikon hasn't deviated from the path set BY Sony in-terms of sensors, have they? Unless Nikon is getting its sensors from elsewhere.
Maybe you should look at history a little more closely. It was Nikon who first came out with a 36 mpixel sensor with great DR. It was Nikon who came out with the 47 mpixel, when Sony came out with a 42 mpixel sensor, both of which was spurred on by Canon’s 50 mpixel 5DSR. Were some of Nikon’s sensors faced by Sony? Yes, from Nikon architecture. Nikon wags it’s own tail.
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800
No, they used the same Sony sensor as Nikon used in the D800 (in contrast to what was claimed in the post I responded to). The same sensor was also used by Pentax so it appears to be for sale to anybody wishing to buy it from Sony
From DPR review of the D800 in 2012

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor that boasts 36.8 million pixels in total, with a maximum effective output of 36.3MP. Its ISO span is 100-6400 natively, expandable to a range of 50 ('Lo1') to 25,600 ('Hi2') equivalent. Nikon's highest resolution DSLR to date"
Sorry, but Nikon does not develop Sony sensors.
That depends on what you mean by "Sony sensors" .

Nikon does indeed design sensors that are manufactured by Sony for use in Nikon cameras. These include the sensors in the D8x0 line.

Check the link in this post in this very thread.
 
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This is incorrect information, for the most part Nikon buys Sony sensors and doesn't develop it own sensors, just 10 Nikon cameras have Nikon sensors, 35+ Nikon cameras contain Sony sensors. Here's a list of every Nikon camera and it's sensor source (except the Z cameras which use Sony sensors as well), 2 Nikon cameras contain Toshiba sensors:

https://nikonrumors.com/2015/12/16/...s-and-their-sensor-manufacturerdesigner.aspx/
You (and the author of that post) are making the mistake of assuming that if Sony manufactures the sensor that they also design it. Nikon has little or no sensor manufacturing capability of their own, but they have an extensive sensor design facility. They design senors that are then manufactured for them by other companies, including Sony Semiconductor.
 
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I feel exactly opposite to what you said. It is actually Canon which has a mismatch in its line up. Pro lenses and basic bodies. Nikon is consistent in its prosumer offering and it is good enough to be used by many professionals in their line of work.

The people using Canon R system are only Canon users who added one to their existing Canon kit. However there are several on this forum whom nikon was successful in converting (myself included, but I am an enthusiast).
Sony and Panasonic lovers. Panasonic has a huge advantage, in that they have the support and participation of Leica and Sigma in the L mount Alliance.
Not true. Panasonic had to join an alliance because they are not a big player, however even the alliance is still smaller than Canon/Nikon individual eco system. How many lenses are available for L system, and at what price?
Sony has a huge head start over all the others. Those two facts will mean that Nikon and Canon will be playing catch up for a long, long time, if they do what I think they're doing . . . sitting back, and watching how people react to their pathetic entry into the full-frame mirrorless market (so far).
Have you actually used Z cameras? If you have, then I am really amazed at your expectations. If you haven't, then you are just echoing internet chatter.

Both Z's are very competent camera, as evidenced by many professionals and enthusiasts using it here. I used A7R III since 12-2017 exclusively, and had dual systems all spring and summer. I have now sold my RIII. It wasn't a bad camera, but Z is better in many respects (including lens selection and lens prices).

Even Canon R system can not be called pathetic. For certain type of shooting it is vert competent.
 
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses.
Please don't let your enthusiasm for Olympus or mirrorless get in the way of reporting the facts. Canon and Nikon have been producing f/1.2 lenses for longer than Olympus has produced any M.Zuiko lenses.
But how many do they actually sell? It's like Nikon made a 6mm fisheye, a 2000mm mirror lens and a 13mm rectilinear. They're more like prestige pieces made to show off.
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800
No, they used the same Sony sensor as Nikon used in the D800 (in contrast to what was claimed in the post I responded to). The same sensor was also used by Pentax so it appears to be for sale to anybody wishing to buy it from Sony
From DPR review of the D800 in 2012

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor that boasts 36.8 million pixels in total, with a maximum effective output of 36.3MP. Its ISO span is 100-6400 natively, expandable to a range of 50 ('Lo1') to 25,600 ('Hi2') equivalent. Nikon's highest resolution DSLR to date"
Sorry, but Nikon does not develop Sony sensors.
They don't need to they develop there own. Sony used Nikon's sensor as a quick entry into the FF market some year and a half after the D800. Nikon design sensors and have a contractor produce them, in this case the contractor was Sony. At other times they buy in off the shelf item's for lower class bodies.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Here is one of Nikon's patents for a sensor https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160380016A1/en
 
I feel exactly opposite to what you said. It is actually Canon which has a mismatch in its line up. Pro lenses and basic bodies. Nikon is consistent in its prosumer offering and it is good enough to be used by many professionals in their line of work.

The people using Canon R system are only Canon users who added one to their existing Canon kit. However there are several on this forum whom nikon was successful in converting (myself included, but I am an enthusiast).
Sony and Panasonic lovers. Panasonic has a huge advantage, in that they have the support and participation of Leica and Sigma in the L mount Alliance.
Not true. Panasonic had to join an alliance because they are not a big player, however even the alliance is still smaller than Canon/Nikon individual eco system. How many lenses are available for L system, and at what price?
Sony has a huge head start over all the others. Those two facts will mean that Nikon and Canon will be playing catch up for a long, long time, if they do what I think they're doing . . . sitting back, and watching how people react to their pathetic entry into the full-frame mirrorless market (so far).
Have you actually used Z cameras? If you have, then I am really amazed at your expectations. If you haven't, then you are just echoing internet chatter.

Both Z's are very competent camera, as evidenced by many professionals and enthusiasts using it here. I used A7R III since 12-2017 exclusively, and had dual systems all spring and summer. I have now sold my RIII. It wasn't a bad camera, but Z is better in many respects (including lens selection and lens prices).

Even Canon R system can not be called pathetic. For certain type of shooting it is vert competent.
Let me explain what I mean by a pethetic entry into the full-frame mirrorless market. Nikon produced two cameras - one with more resolution and features than the other. That's great. I commend them for doing so . . . but we have still to see a third camera from them. We also have seen very little in the way of lenses from them. Sure, they're adding f1.8 primes regularly, but that's about it. We have seven lenses available from Nikon that are native mount lenses now . . . a YEAR after they introduced the cameras and just three lenses. Canon did worse. On launch they just sold ONE camera. How pathetic is THAT? It's as if they think mirrorless might be a fad or something. It's what one would expect from a group of old men who prefer to use DSLR cameras themselves. It's really sad, and it's a testament to the fact that Canon isn't taking mirrorless seriously, but instead they're offering "a few products for those silly young people who want that kind of thing." (The quote is not something someone from Canon said, but something I'm saying in a way that I think the people at Canon must be thinking.)

A REAL launch of a product line would have included three new cameras (maybe five), and at least half-a-dozen new lenses, including a macro, a wide-angle zoom, normal zoom, a long zoom, and two primes (ten new lenses would have been a REALLY serious launch, including three wide-aperture primes, two macros, two choices of normal zoom, such as an f2.8 and a budget zoom with a range of f3.5-5.6, and a super-zoom, such as a 28-300mm f3.5-5.6, as well as the long zoom, such as a 70-300mm f4-5.6, and wide-angle zoom, such as a 14-24mm f4 or f2.8). Granted, I don't think anyone has made a launch into any camera market with ten lenses, and even six lenses would be a lot, but Sigma is nowhere near as big as Canon, and there have been shows where they introduced three new lenses, so why can't Canon introduce twice as many, when they're launching their new full-frame mirrorless line? Why can't Canon introduce two or three new cameras too? The fact is they could have done so, but chose not to, and that shows their level of commitment to the new system. The fact that Panasonic made a bigger launch into full-frame mirrorless than Canon shows us something . . . that Canon is either not that serious about mirrorless, or that they are in a mode of wait and see . . . or that they have some strategy to sell off their DSLR cameras and lenses before they show that they really are serious about full-frame mirrorless. The fact is though that Canon's DSLR line is getting old, as are the lenses in that line. There has been very little new product from Canon in the past couple of years, since they made the 5D Mk IV and 7D Mk II. Yes, they just made the 90 D, but where is the 1DX Mk III? The 1Dx Mk II was released more than three years ago. I guess they plan to make a 1Dx Mk III in 2020, for the Olympics, but I bet that could be Canon's last DSLR . . . if their mirrorless cameras work well, and people buy them. I also think the 90 D is one of their last DSLR cameras. I'm thinking there will never be another 7 D, and I think they've ended their line of Rebel cameras, replacing it with the EOS M line (M3, M5, M6, M50, and M100).

Look at what Panasonic has done so far in the full-frame mirrorless market. Three new cameras in the first year is at least better than what Canon and Nikon have done. Sure, they're all based on the same body, but Canon and Nikon could have each made two cameras based on the same body too - one with more speed and a tilt screen, and one with less speed and no tilt screen. They could have even put different sensors in them, like Panasonic did.

I do like what Canon has done with the RP though, differentiating it to a great degree, and making it very affordable. Ultimately Canon and Nikon seem to think they can rely on their established line of lenses though, rather than making a big launch with a lot of new lenses and cameras. That's obviously their strategy, but I think it's a short-sighted strategy, which shows people that Sony is more serious about what they're doing in the full-frame mirrorless world, because when Sony started, they didn't just rely on their old lenses with an adapter, and sit back, waiting for people to react. I think Sony was serious from the start, with a lot of new lenses and cameras. They too made three cameras in the first year, with two cameras at launch: the A7 and A7r, followed quickly by the A6000 and then the A7s came along about a year later.

I have to admit that Sony was making their APS-C cameras already, so in a way their new system wasn't new at all, because it used the same mount as the NEX series of cameras. With Nikon and Canon it is a different story, and with Canon there is a split, with the R mount and the M mount, so I guess Canon can be forgiven for introducing just one full-frame, R-mount camera on launch. I still think Nikon's launch of just two cameras is a bit short. Maybe the word "pathetic" is a bit strong, but the cameras they launched really are a bit of a minimum, and I was disappointed that they didn't make something bigger and better in the beginning. What I was hoping for, after years of waiting for them to get into the mirrorless market in a serious way, was a big launch, with a camera that blows away the competition (including Sony). I mean why else would Nikon wait so long? Why else would Canon wait so long? Well, Canon didn't really wait so long. They made the M mount years ago, but it was not what I would expect Canon to produce, and that M mount system didn't seem like Canon was serious about mirrorless. It's now obvious that Canon was just sort of testing the waters of the mirrorless world, and now they have launched their more serious R mount . . . with one camera, followed by a second. It's not obvious that they're planning to compete heavily with Sony though, and that's how I see Nikon's entry into full-frame mirrorless too. That's what makes me think neither of them are taking the full-frame mirrorless market seriously, and that is why I used the word "pathetic" to describe their launches into the full-frame mirrorless market.

Again, it's as if Canon and Nikon are run by old men, who don't see the seriousness of their situation. They're losing customers to Sony . . . and now Panasonic . . . and it seems like they just don't care.

EDIT: A moderator has told me that this post has crossed the line into "bashing" . . . and it is not my intent to bash Nikon. I only wanted to explain why I used the word "pathetic" to describe their launch into the full-frame mirrorless market. I like Nikon as a company, and I see they're trying. I just don't know why they didn't make a bigger splash. I speculate - as do most of us. That's all. I don't have some inside information about Nikon and the people who run the company. I guess I was disappointed, and when I started describing my feelings and thoughts about their launch, I might have gone overboard with my speculation, and if so, I apologize. I don't have any intent to bash anyone or anything - just to explain my thinking.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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I would prefer to haven't seen even the rumor.

In my opinion 42-47 MP sensors used by high resolution FF cameras is the highest usable ones. Increasing resolution is not so much usable as even if you need to crop further you get increased noise and less IQ due to the lens ability to meet this increased resolution.

The difference also on how much you can crop is not huge. But in my opinion the penalties paid on file size and all other characteristics (increased rolling shutter, cropping on video, no improvement on FPS) make it even that less appealing in reality.

I would prefer to keep the MP as it was and make improvements on FPS, rolling shutter produced noise and DR.

Resolution Example 1

Resolution Example 2

Resolution Example 3

Cropping Example 1

Cropping Example 2
Not me. I want twice what I have now, and THEN they can stick there, speeding up things and improving noise performance. Look what happened with the D800 vs the D700. The nosie is not a problem. The extra resolution is well worthwhile. If you want a cleaner picture buy a lower resolution camera (Z7 or Z6), but with imroved tech and noise reduction a 72 MP sensor will produce spectacular images about as good as what can be had from the Z6 up to ISO 6400. If you shoot over ISO 6400 a lot the 72 MP Z8 just won't be for you, but maybe the 40 MP Z9 will be.

;)
The movement from D700 to D800 (3x more MP) cannot be compared with what we see now and beyond (1,42x more MP). There are always some relative gains regarding resolution, cropping, noise and IQ. Do not forget that as you get increased resolution you either get more image details or you can crop more.

But how much can be the perceivable detail given a relation with the presentation? Its like comparing Full HD and 4K smartphones. Yes you can say that you see a difference between a Full HD and a 4K TV. But I doubt you will see so much improvement comparing 4K and 8K. Only really large monitor will be improved. I would say 80" and beyond.

Also do you remember the FF and APS-C debate? The cropping factor kicks in and you end up with even more noise as you crop. I do not talk about cropping the same amount on images taken from sensors with different resolution. "Digital zoom" has its limit given a specific sensor size.

Lens development is also not as progressive as sensor technology. It is easier to have visible aberrations as you crop. Also to get even better results from lenses you mostly end up with larger lenses. An f/1.4 lens cannot become smaller and keep the same image quality. Physics play a huge role in this segment. Even temperature and moisture can affect the ending result.
Do you remember when we were told that APS-C lenses didn't have to be so big? How about when we were told that they didn't have to cost so much? Have you ever read that lenses for smaller sensors were easier to make?

Today the manufacturers have all sorts of technology at their fingertips, which was not available years and years ago, yet my tiny little Helios lens, designed and manufactured more than fifty years ago, gives an image about as good as any lens I own. How can THAT be the case? How can an old 50mm f1.8 lens design from Canon be so small and good that it still competes with other lenses today?

Here's an example of what I'm talking about - a comparison of the 35mm f1.4 Art on Sigma's best camera ever, against the lowly, tiny Canon 50mm f1.8 on a Canon 5 Dsr:


I'll do a comparison of my 58mm f2 Helios lens against a Nikon 50mm f1.8 G (a design more than fifty years newer, made with computers and all the decades of knowledge gained by Nikon since its inception), on my Nikon D810, using mirror-up mode, with self-timer, on a tripod. You'll see the smaller, old lens actually produces a similar image . . . so what gives?!?

As far as sensor size and designs go, the latest 1" sensors are spectacular, with BSI and other advancements, and far more dense than the 20 MP m4/3 sensors that are available. Now since the 20 MP m4/3 sensors are about the same density as what an 80 MP full-frame sensor is, there's no good reason we shouldn't have 80 MP, full-frame, BSI sensors available to us today, other than the fact that manufacturers don't want to make those available, for some reason. Obviously, by the popularity of the new Nikon D850, the Panasonic S1R, and the brand new Sony A7r IV, people actually DO want higher resolution. Why else would they want those cameras and buy the crazy expensive lenses they buy? If people didn't want more detail in their photos, they would not buy the Zeiss Otus lenses. In fact, Zeiss would be broke by now, if people didn't want those high-end, high-resolution lenses. Sony would not have a market for their GM lenses, yet those seem to be some of Sony's most popular lenses. Sigma would not be doing so well with their Art line of lenses, if people just didn't care about the higher resolution they can get with those lenses.
 
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses.
Please don't let your enthusiasm for Olympus or mirrorless get in the way of reporting the facts. Canon and Nikon have been producing f/1.2 lenses for longer than Olympus has produced any M.Zuiko lenses.
But how many do they actually sell? It's like Nikon made a 6mm fisheye, a 2000mm mirror lens and a 13mm rectilinear. They're more like prestige pieces made to show off.
. . . and Olympus doesn't make any lenses like that? How many people do you think actually buy those Nikon and Canon lenses that cost over $10,000? Olympus doesn't make a lens that costs over $3,000. I think they know that nobody would buy them. Nikon and Canon at least show their commitment with such prestige pieces, for the few photographers (or rental houses, new agencies, etc.) who are actually willing to buy them.

How long has Olympus been making lenses for m4/3, and they STILL don't have a 400mm lens? Why? I think that's pathetic. Just now we're finally seeing that they are getting some balls, and making a 500mm lens. Do you know what I get when I search B&H for "Olympus 400mm" on B&H? I get a Panasonic lens. How sad is that? Nikon and Canon have been making 800mm lenses for decades, and as you say, Nikon even made a 2,000mm lens once. Canon made a 1200mm lens (six of them, if I'm not mistaken . . . for more than $20,000 each). Maybe they made those giant lenses for gragging rights, and maybe Sigma made their 200-500mm f2.8 lens for bragging rights too . . . but at least they did it, and at least people who want them can actually buy such things. Olympus (and Panasonic and Sony) need to realize that people don't want to buy into a system that doesn't give them as many options as possible. Who would want to buy a camera that only has three different lenses available? Not many people. Who would want to buy a camera in a line of cameras that has been around for years, but only has six lenses and one flash that work with it? Not many people. One reason Canon and Nikon are at the top, and for the same reason Sony is doing so well with their E-mount cameras and now lenses, is that people want a lot of options. Sure, they might just buy one or two extra lenses over time, after they buy their camera with one lens, but they want choice, and they want a variety of choice. They want to be able to choose between three or four different wide-angle zooms or three or four different long telephoto zooms . . . not just have ONE choice, and that's it.

Some people want wide aperture primes, some want small primes, and don't mind being limited to a smaller aperture, like f1.8 or f2.8. Some people want image stabilization, and some people want low prices, while other people prefer quality. Some people want the lightest system, while others want the fastest system. Yet others want the very best image quality and resolution possible, because they're used to shooting with a large format film camera. How does one company serve all these people? They do it by offering a wide variety of cameras and lenses . . . not just a choice between this one and that one.
 
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses.
Please don't let your enthusiasm for Olympus or mirrorless get in the way of reporting the facts. Canon and Nikon have been producing f/1.2 lenses for longer than Olympus has produced any M.Zuiko lenses.
But how many do they actually sell? It's like Nikon made a 6mm fisheye, a 2000mm mirror lens and a 13mm rectilinear. They're more like prestige pieces made to show off.
. . . and Olympus doesn't make any lenses like that? How many people do you think actually buy those Nikon and Canon lenses that cost over $10,000?
Actually seem to be a large number. The folks I shoot with on a regular basis seem to have a lot of them and just look at how many you see at every Pro/college sporting event. Certainly not sold in the numbers we see for a lower end 35mm f1.8....but perhaps in numbers that make them very profitable for Nikon/Canon in the pro market. Sales are obviously on the decline in general...but in the future Pro level $10,000 gear might be what the camera divisions put an emphasis on? Cater to the Niche/pro vs trying to compete with phones? Might work out that way. Hard to say
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
It looks like it's going to happen.
Thanks, that is interesting and right up to date as of today. I wonder how much difference we could see in a 16 bit raw file vs. 14 bit.
 
This is like what one buyer said about Walmart; they need 8 different colour toilet seats, but 85% of those sold will be white.
 
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses.
Please don't let your enthusiasm for Olympus or mirrorless get in the way of reporting the facts. Canon and Nikon have been producing f/1.2 lenses for longer than Olympus has produced any M.Zuiko lenses.
But how many do they actually sell? It's like Nikon made a 6mm fisheye, a 2000mm mirror lens and a 13mm rectilinear. They're more like prestige pieces made to show off.
I don't know the actual sales figures for Canon, Nikon or Olympus. Do you?

However I expect that you'd find that Nikon and Canon have each sold more f/1.2 lenses than Olympus has. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Olympus has sold more f/1.2 lenses in the past 12 months than either Canon or Nikon.

I agree that a f/1.2 F lens is a more esoteric item than a f/1.2 MFT lens, because an f/1.2 MFT lens is equivalent to a FF f/2.4 lens of twice the focal length - something that isn't esoteric at all.
 
The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
what kind of faults in the Z-system you mean? The Canon RF lenses are not better - eg than a 24-70 f2.8S - and the lens roadmap of the Z will fill the gaps in 12-18 months ...
No,they're not. However the Nikon 2.8s is the only pro level lens the Z line has. Canon has a 50 1.2, two 85 1.2, a 28-70 f2, who's build quality is designed to take beating and keep on ticking, already announced. The case can be made, that Nikon's S line has excellent characteristics, but most of the offerings cannot be considered Nikon pro line. Many are awaiting the 1.4s which would be considered a pro line of primes. Personally I do not consider the 1.8s primes, or the f4 zooms to be professional grade, but they are certainly excellent lenses. The Nikon 58 f.095 Noct, which could be considered professional, it is nothing more than a phantom product that was announced months ago, hasn't materialized. Nikon chose to go after the prosumer market, rather than the pro market with their Z cameras and lenses. Canon is choosing to go after the pro market with its lens offerings. Nikon will get there, but after Canon, and of course Sony. I believe they chose to do this in a total reversal of their product philosophy. In the past, the lead Nikon product has always been their top line camera, mated with a professional grade lens. The F, the F2, ...the D1, ...D3. The D1 series was mated with the 17-35 f2.8 AF-S, The D3, was mated with the 24-70 f2.8. But the Z7 has the 24-70 f4??? They're hedging their bet on mirrorless.
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses
it will depend on the type of pro - the pro's I know don't use that, but they are doing photography for company events, architecture, weddings , restaurant promotions. the one who was doing restaurant promotion pictures ( food, staff - to present the athmosphere of the restaurants) was using a 24-105 f4 and a 50 f1.8 .

maybe f1.2 is needed for detailed athmosphere-pictures with very shallow DOF - but is a f1.4 not "shallow Dof" enough?
 

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