Sony's A7RIV 61mp sensor

The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
what kind of faults in the Z-system you mean? The Canon RF lenses are not better - eg than a 24-70 f2.8S - and the lens roadmap of the Z will fill the gaps in 12-18 months ...
No,they're not. However the Nikon 2.8s is the only pro level lens the Z line has. Canon has a 50 1.2, two 85 1.2, a 28-70 f2, who's build quality is designed to take beating and keep on ticking, already announced. The case can be made, that Nikon's S line has excellent characteristics, but most of the offerings cannot be considered Nikon pro line. Many are awaiting the 1.4s which would be considered a pro line of primes. Personally I do not consider the 1.8s primes, or the f4 zooms to be professional grade, but they are certainly excellent lenses. The Nikon 58 f.095 Noct, which could be considered professional, it is nothing more than a phantom product that was announced months ago, hasn't materialized. Nikon chose to go after the prosumer market, rather than the pro market with their Z cameras and lenses. Canon is choosing to go after the pro market with its lens offerings. Nikon will get there, but after Canon, and of course Sony. I believe they chose to do this in a total reversal of their product philosophy. In the past, the lead Nikon product has always been their top line camera, mated with a professional grade lens. The F, the F2, ...the D1, ...D3. The D1 series was mated with the 17-35 f2.8 AF-S, The D3, was mated with the 24-70 f2.8. But the Z7 has the 24-70 f4??? They're hedging their bet on mirrorless.
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses.
 
You're right except for one thing. When it comes to Nikon Products; Nikon is the dog; Sony is the tail. The Sony chip manufacturing co. has to satisfy its customers, not the other way around. How many times have we heard that Nikon designs its sensors, and contracts the designs out to manufacturers? Sony is one of those manufacturers --
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
Hmmm, I'd say, both are dogs and tails :-)

The basic sensor development is mostly driven by other industries - mainly smartphones, but increasingly industrial/automotive cameras etc. - because there is much more money involved as in digital still cameras (DSLR/MILC etc.).

One example: stacked sensor technology was developed for smartphones already around 2012:

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201208/12-107E/index.html

Nikon is not so much into that smartphone market, but they rely on the basic developments and excellent sensors from Sony Semiconductors. It's cheaper than running their own sensor R&D department
You need to look at this article, they do have their own sensor R&D lab, You will find out that they designed their D850 sensor with low iso of 50 and find it was not for landscape photographers.

Nikon design lab
(have a look at Canon, who are not doing so well sensor-wise...)

OTOH Nikon was way ahead of camera development compared to Sony until recently. Sony had to catch up with their development - so the next years will be challenging for all of them...

All that is good news for us customers: we have many companies competing in a challenging market, out comes a lot of new developments and good prices...

If Sony haven't screwed up the market with the Alphas, we would have to wait for a Nikon mirrorless for another century :-D

C:
 
I can understand the fast zoom Canon announced, finally FF has a lens as fast as one Olympus released over 13 years ago. But do many pros use f/1.2 primes? They seem like esoteric, very narrow-use lenses.
Please don't let your enthusiasm for Olympus or mirrorless get in the way of reporting the facts. Canon and Nikon have been producing f/1.2 lenses for longer than Olympus has produced any M.Zuiko lenses.
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
It looks like it's going to happen.
Thanks, that is interesting and right up to date as of today. I wonder how much difference we could see in a 16 bit raw file vs. 14 bit.
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.

--
Mike Dawson
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
 
You need to look at this article, they do have their own sensor R&D lab, You will find out that they designed their D850 sensor with low iso of 50 and find it was not for landscape photographers.

Nikon design lab
Thanks - looks like a great article - I'll have a read at the weekend!

C:
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800

--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
 
Last edited:
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800
No, they used the same Sony sensor as Nikon used in the D800 (in contrast to what was claimed in the post I responded to). The same sensor was also used by Pentax so it appears to be for sale to anybody wishing to buy it from Sony
From DPR review of the D800 in 2012

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor that boasts 36.8 million pixels in total, with a maximum effective output of 36.3MP. Its ISO span is 100-6400 natively, expandable to a range of 50 ('Lo1') to 25,600 ('Hi2') equivalent. Nikon's highest resolution DSLR to date"
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
Given that Nikon's high MP D800 and D810 bodies used 36 MP and Sony never had a 36 MP body... and given that the D850 uses a 45 MP sensor, again something Sony never produced... Sony had 42 MP, which Nikon never did...

I'd say it's anything BUT a good bet that Nikon will have a 61 MP Z camera. They might. But they might very well have something else. Nikon appears to be able to contract out to Sony for any sort of sensor that they design. Canon is rumored to be coming out with an 80 MP sensor. Maybe Nikon will do likewise.
given that Sony had the a7r using the same 36MP IMX094 sensor used in the D800/810 Nikons
They used the Nikon sensor over a year after the D800
No, they used the same Sony sensor as Nikon used in the D800 (in contrast to what was claimed in the post I responded to). The same sensor was also used by Pentax so it appears to be for sale to anybody wishing to buy it from Sony
From DPR review of the D800 in 2012

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor that boasts 36.8 million pixels in total, with a maximum effective output of 36.3MP. Its ISO span is 100-6400 natively, expandable to a range of 50 ('Lo1') to 25,600 ('Hi2') equivalent. Nikon's highest resolution DSLR to date"

--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
Sorry, but Nikon does not develop Sony sensors.
 
I'm sure it will one day.
What I am hearing now is that Nikon might design their own sensor which they did for the Z6 and 7?
The more pertinent question is will it be DSLR (D860) or ML (Z 8)?

If the A7R III was released in 2017 with the D850 and now the A7R IV 2 years later. Z 7 is only a year old so a new 61MP body this year seems unlikely from Nikon.
Yes, and not too much left of this year now. I am still hanging in there with my D810 and waiting for the next generation of Z bodies. Exciting times but the wait is getting more difficult!
This is a new era of release cycles which is very hard to predict, let alone speculating.

Right now all we know is a D6 is next. Nothing about D760. Nothing about DX. We just don't know what Nikon is focusing on behind the curtain.
I'm waiting too. I have a D810, and I think I'm just going to get more lenses for it. I'm not particularly happy with Nikon's full-frame mirrorless launch. I might upgrade to a D850 next year instead of hoping for a better Nikon mirrorless camera. (I do like the tilt screen and 9 MP of extra resolution.) The 60 MP Sony made me take a good, hard, long look at Sony again, but I'm disappointed in the 4Kp30 and the fact that even that is only from a significant crop of the sensor (so sad). Hopefully Nikon's next mirrorless will have more resolution and offer 4Kp60 from the full sensor (or almost the full sensor, like the Panasonic S1R does). If so, and if it offers a fully-articulating rear screen and a good viewfinder . . . and maybe a fast UHS-II or SD Express card slot, I might end up skipping the D850 and finally getting a real mirrorless camera (though I guess my Sony A7 was a real mirrorless camera).

I was hoping for more in the Nikon mirrorless launch. I was hoping for a new camera that would blow away the competition in some way. I didn't see that in the Z6 or Z7. Hopefully we'll see that in a Z8. Nikon really needs to get on the ball with making Z mount lenses though. The Sony beast is dominating, and the L-mount Alliance is slaughtering Nikon and Canon so far.

I think Nikon could kick butt with a one-two punch of a new 800mm f4 VR lens in Z mount and a new Z8 with the highest resolution sensor of any full-frame mirrorless camera (as long as it operates pretty quickly and has some better than Z7 and Sony A7r IV specs). Nikon needs to take the advantage of more lenses away from Sony and Panasonic, who are offering Canon's 800mm f5.6 IS L lens through the use of adapters. If Nikon makes a new, better, ultra-long lens, which is ONLY compatible by using a Nikon Z mount camera, then they take away that advantage the competition currently has. Not that a lot of people are buying the Canon 800mm lens and mounting it on Sony mirrorless and Panasonic mirrorless bodies, but people see that as a viable option for their future (which they actually think might come to pass . . . though for more than 99% of them it never will). In fact, I think Nikon should make a 1000 mm f5.6 VR lens in Z mount too. The 800mm f4 VR could be priced at $17,995.00 and the 1000mm f5.6 VR could be priced at $21,995.00. They'll sell a few dozen of them (maybe even a few hundred), and they'll capture the dreams of millions.

They should make sure that Voigtlander 10mm f5.6 gets made in Nikon Z mount too. Currently Sony takes the cake in the wide-angle world, with that one lens.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
Last edited:
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
I think a 300mm lens is = 400mm lens resolution-wise going from 47 to 61mp so it's inevitable. But, they should go for 80mp then they'd have the same density as a m4/3rds sensor.
+1
 
Ernie, I am with you. Have a D810 which serves my needs well. Waited for the Z's, but can wait longer. AF is my key issue, although new Z features would be helpful. Will wait a bit longer.
 
The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
The tail doesn't wag the dog, their next step whatever it is will be governed by Sony.
Well Sony just placed a shot across Nikon's bow. We'll have to see what Nikon does next, and I hope it's a full broadside attack. Nikon should have launched their full-frame mirrorless attack with five cameras and seven or even ten lenses . . . not this dribbly little, pathetic (though better than Canon's) attempt. This is the company that launched the Nikon 1 system with all those cameras, for God's sake. How they can only make two mirrorless cameras and not even follow up with a third within a year is mindboggling to me. And even a year after the launch of the Z system I see just seven lenses available at B&H. What?!? Well, at least they've actually added some lenses to the system, I guess. I do like that they're keeping their primes small, because if you want big you can just use the adapter to mount the f1.4 lenses from their DSLR line. They really need to release something special like the 50mm f0.95 though. They should make an 85mm f0.95 and a 35mm f0.95 too. They need to give people a reason to buy into their mirrorless system.

I think Nikon's afraid of upsetting their DSLR owners by making their DSLR cameras obsolete or something. They need to stop thinking that way and build a real system that will take the market share ASAP, or too many people will buy into the Sony and L-mount systems. Already Nikon and Canon are bleeding pretty profusely. How long are they going to sit back on their laurels and wait for most of their customers to switch away to Sony and Panasonic?
 
Is it a pretty good bet that 61mp sensor will find it's way into a Z body? If it does hopefully Nikon will extract every bit of DR from it at ISO 64 possible. I see base ISO on that Sony is still just 100. Nikon has worked it's magic on the Sony sensors in the past.

Will the same AF pixels be on the sensor that Sony uses do you think?
It looks like it's going to happen.

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/19/...n-camera-with-60mp-and-16-bit-nef-files.aspx/

Tim C.
Well, hopefully they're wrong about the "two CFexpress cards" in the Z8, but hopefully they're right about it having a 60 MP (or hopefully even higher resolution).
 
You're right except for one thing. When it comes to Nikon Products; Nikon is the dog; Sony is the tail. The Sony chip manufacturing co. has to satisfy its customers, not the other way around. How many times have we heard that Nikon designs its sensors, and contracts the designs out to manufacturers? Sony is one of those manufacturers --
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
I think Nikon should have stuck with Toshiba, when they got the D5200 sensor produced by Toshiba. If they had kept getting Toshiba to make sensors, they would not have played such a big part in building an enemy/competitor to the degree they've helped build Sony into one of their biggest competitors. I really don't know what they were thinking, after they saw Sony competing with them in 2005 with those 24 MP cameras that cost half what they were trying to sell the D3x for. If they had stopped buying sensors from Sony at that time, they would probably be better off now. They kept feeding a dog that had bitten them. They get what they deserve.
 
This is incorrect information, for the most part Nikon buys Sony sensors and doesn't develop it own sensors, just 10 Nikon cameras have Nikon sensors, 35+ Nikon cameras contain Sony sensors. Here's a list of every Nikon camera and it's sensor source (except the Z cameras which use Sony sensors as well), 2 Nikon cameras contain Toshiba sensors:

https://nikonrumors.com/2015/12/16/...s-and-their-sensor-manufacturerdesigner.aspx/
 
Last edited:
This is incorrect information, for the most part Nikon buys Sony sensors and doesn't develop it own sensors, just 10 Nikon cameras have Nikon sensors, 35+ Nikon cameras contain Sony sensors. Here's a list of every Nikon camera and it's sensor source (except the Z cameras which use Sony sensors as well), 2 Nikon cameras contain Toshiba sensors:

https://nikonrumors.com/2015/12/16/...s-and-their-sensor-manufacturerdesigner.aspx/
That's four year old data (late 2015)...and may not reflect what Nikon is doing now and will be doing going forward. For me though it really isn't a player as all there cameras seem top notch and an improvement on the past. That's really the important bottom line in my book. What hypothetical manufacture they might have used for a part just seems irrelevant AFAIC

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
Last edited:
The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
The tail doesn't wag the dog, their next step whatever it is will be governed by Sony.
Thats silly. Sony will make whatever Nikon is willing to pay for as long as they have the tech to do it.
And yet Nikon hasn't deviated from the path set BY Sony in-terms of sensors, have they? Unless Nikon is getting its sensors from elsewhere.
I'd say Sony sees the cost of development as a cost of doing business, while Nikon doesn't want to eat all the cost of development, and therefore lets Sony make that investment. What Nikon needs to do is what Sigma does with their Foveon sensors, and do their own sensor development, with exclusive contracts with the chip fabs, so that their technology is not shared with other camera companies. THEN they would be able to do what Panasonic is doing now (and probably what Canon does, though Canon doesn't seem to be winning any big prizes in image quality).
 
The last time Sony and Nikon sensor pixel counts were the same on their high end MP camera, was when the A7R and the D800 both had 36 mpixels, in 2012-2013. So there is a good chance, Nikon is working on a different pixel count, for their upgraded sensor. Whether its a slightly higher or minimally lower pixel count remains to be seen. If it happens, it'll be in 2020. I say if, because Nikon isn't very sure footed when it comes to mirrorless. The Z series is really good, but there are faults in the system when compared to other mirrorless systems such as Sony and Fujifilm. Even Canon, who screwed the pooch with the EOS R, is making its system viable with mostly professional RF lenses. I don't think Nikon knows what their next step is.
Rich Rosen
https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardrosenphotography
The tail doesn't wag the dog, their next step whatever it is will be governed by Sony.
Thats silly. Sony will make whatever Nikon is willing to pay for as long as they have the tech to do it.
And yet Nikon hasn't deviated from the path set BY Sony in-terms of sensors, have they? Unless Nikon is getting its sensors from elsewhere.
Well the D850 is 45MP while the a7riii is 42MP. So there is some kind of variation going on. Even if they're following Sony's lead, it's not as though it matters. It's like IPhone and Android all over again. You're going to have your usual handful of noise makers saying they'll flip brands because of "innovation" but most people is in one camp and won't bother switching to another.
Really?!? How do you explain all the new Sony customers then? How do you explain the fact that now both Nikon and Canon are making full-frame mirrorless cameras? What's happening is Sony has decided to eat Nikon's lunch for them. Soon they'll be eating Canon's lunch for them too. Panasonic will help make that happen, and in a few years Panasonic will lead the pack, with help from Leica and Sigma, and Panasonic will be followed by Sony, then Canon, then Nikon, and if they're lucky Pentax will still exist. Olympus will keep playing the m4/3 game, but by then there will be some very small full-frame mirrorless bodies and some smaller f2.8 lenses, like the new Sigma 45mm f2.8, and Olympus will have lost some of their customers. Maybe Olympus will choose to follow the pack into the full-frame world, but if they do they'll have a long, hard climb. My guess is Pentax will fail, and Olympus might fail too. Sigma will survive, becuase their camera business is not really a profit center for them anyway, and their lenses are profitable already. Panasonic, Sony, Canon, and Nikon will be the big players, and Fuji will still hang in there, in their niches, not really dependent on others, just like Hasselblad and Leica don't really depend on others either. If Pentax can make the mirrorless transition with medium format, they might survive, but with Fuji competing against them I doubt it. Ricoh will just shut down Pentax, or they'll sell the off to a Chinese manufacturing company, like what's happened with Hasselblad.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
Last edited:

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top