why 16mp sensor is enough..for everyday used

hi again.

Some time ago i reviewed my gx80/85 after 1year of used. Today i just hang my big print 40x60cm and 6pieces 30x45cm up in my wall.
While that 60x40 is not a "big", it is more commonly the limitation for most as people who likes art, they have multiple art on their walls and smaller sizes are anyways more used than huge ones.
I agree,

Its all about viewing distance. Any photo that looks OK as an 8x10 inch picture, will also look fine on a billboard.

I have a 140 inch projector screen and from most seats in my theater room it is very difficult to see the difference between HD and 4K. Even up scaled DVDs look good usually.
And then comes the main questions, when will you see the difference? And then when you see it, when does that difference matter?

Like example, lets make a 60x45 cm print as a test subject. Take a 120 PPI and 220 PPI as value (you have almost native 20Mpix resolution for the 220 PPI) and view them from the normal distance. Place the prints on the different walls. And then ask people opinions after they have watched the print, not before.

And then ask that did the quality matter to be too low? Now try the same at 96 PPI and 72 PPI and then even 50-60 PPI. At some point the quality becomes so low that people will say so.
 
Being into art and exhibitions, you can see huge detailed prints being sold for €€€€€€€€ in galleries. And they sure ain't 16mp!

This is a forum for serious photographers, right?
Do you happen to know how many had access to over 20-24 Mpix cameras in the 1990-2010 period?

How about the photographers who shot film?

https://theonlinephotographer.typep...ormat-film-we-have-the-definitive-answer.html

Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor that boasts 36.8 million pixels in total, with a maximum effective output of 36.3MP. Its ISO span is 100-6400 natively, expandable to a range of 50 ('Lo1') to 25,600 ('Hi2') equivalent. Nikon's highest resolution DSLR to date, the D800/E more than doubles the pixel count of the flagship D4. The D800 is potentially very attractive to studio and landscape professionals, but should pique the interest of a great many enthusiast Nikon users too - many of whom may have been 'stuck' at 12MP for years, with a D300, D300s or D700."

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e

What has happened since 2012?

E-M5 got out in 2012, with a 16Mpix sensor. And yet people don't have much to say about separating the difference between those Mpix counts on larger prints.

https://www.thewanderinglensman.com/2014/02/the-practical-difference-between-full.html

And example that was "just" a 16" X 20" enlargement.

So not a 200x300 cm ones. But at those sizes you really don't get much difference until you go to crazy high like 100 Mpix etc. And that is one thing that so many landscape etc photographer does, stitching.
 
Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
 
<<The object is to preserve memories.

The camera gadget we use, won’t matter years from now.>>

Alas, I agree with you! I KNOW the camera is but an image-gathering tool, but emotionally it is much more to me. Mere musings of an old photographer. :-)
 
Fair enough, but ...
I think the fly in the ointment of digital viewing at it relates to MP count is the ability to zoom into 100% { or more :-) } with no effort .
I consider this mostly a trick to make it easy to evaluate technical aspects of a shot. Detecting pixel-level sharpness, for example (e.g., misfocus, motion blur). You can enlarge an image to whatever zoom you want, but if the effects you see are irrelevant to real-world viewing, you're puttering beyond the useful. I'm happy to make my image pixels 2x2 or 3x3 DISPLAY pixels to get down to this without squinting, but then I know that, for my presentations, this is just a convenience for me. It's not like sub-pixel phenomena are at all relevant to viewers. So, in a nutshell, these zooms are a convenience for the photographer/image processor. Just to make SURE the image won't contain any detectable artifacts.
I think you have nailed it to a "T" here. The only time I need to go to greater detail than the base image is in botanical identification of tiny features. But that is not art. Otherwise, I look at like images sometimes to try to evaluate which is truly the best image. But to view an image I look at it from a distance that allows me to see the entire image from the same perspective. On my computer screen that is about 10-12" on a 5K 27" monitor. At that viewing distance, as long as my eyes are not drawn to some part of the image that is either OOF or obviously not sharp, I am happy with the image (composition and exposure notwithstanding) as those are also macro-evaluation factors.
I also find that people invariably move in closer to look at the finer details of even very large prints , I have 72" wide prints on my wall and after the initial look at the whole scene most folk move within touching distance to see the minutiae . I might just have nosey friends :-)
You have a good point, here, and I can imagine that. I would almost certainly do that (and I have) on some occasions. But my own curiosity is mostly technical. Like, I want to know what kind of a camera was used to take room-sized images. In admiring these room-sized images I always step back to take the image in within my range of vision in order to appreciate it. Clearly it's take a superhuman imagination to make something interesting happen in every part of a large image.
The only time I would look super closely at an image is, as I said botanical, or I might look at feather detail on a bird or scale detail on a butterfly....perhaps also rock crystals in a matrix.
It just occurred to me that, in a decade or more, I've never walked up close to the big art pieces on our wall. I just did, and you can see some of the technique and care used in creating them. So, an artist might get something out of this, but, I've never felt the art work itself benefitted from such inspection. My lack of imagination? Or, maybe contemporary artists haven't caught on to multi-scaled art. I'll have to talk to my son the artist about this.

I can't remember a time where I found artistic value in some tiny, tiny part of a much larger work. Maybe, but I cannot actually recall any instance. I admit that this might be a lack of artistic imagination, but, still, I'm waiting until I can conceive of such a work and then worry about how to create it.
I look at the big picture and evaluate especially a landscape image on that basis. Is there anything that is distracting as I view the image - from a distance where I can see the whole scene.
Ah, I DO remember some art where some macro scene is made out of zillions of little, bitty images you can's see from a distance. Kind of a one-trick pony, however, I think. The kind of thing a clever artist might do, and take all necessary pains to accomplish. But, hardly the kind of thing I think about doing on a regular basis.
Macro, yes. Landscape, no.
Thanks for the poke!
 
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Nice contribution. It marks another of what I consider to be a "specialized niche," where you might want higher resolution to zoom in. I.e., if you MIGHT need to look at (much) more detail in a portion of the image. So, you might well expect scientists who need to check micro-features would fit this. Of course, I would never begrudge them a high MPX camera. But, I don't have that niche in my repertoire. And I wouldn't want to pay the premium to get to it.

On the other hand, if those supposed scientists KNOW they need micro-scale view of particular parts, wouldn't they have just taken two pictures? So, it's even more specialized: Only when you don't have time or other practical problems with taking two pictures (one a close-up); or when you really don't know in advance where you will need look.

Bottom line continues to be what most people here are saying. I'm completely happy with 20 MPX, more than I need almost all the time, including for fairly large prints. I wouldn't NOT buy higher MPX when they're cheaply available. But other things, like dynamic range, are far more important to me. More computational photography will solve many of those other problems, without a higher MPX sensor.
Fair enough, but ...
I think the fly in the ointment of digital viewing at it relates to MP count is the ability to zoom into 100% { or more :-) } with no effort .
I consider this mostly a trick to make it easy to evaluate technical aspects of a shot. Detecting pixel-level sharpness, for example (e.g., misfocus, motion blur). You can enlarge an image to whatever zoom you want, but if the effects you see are irrelevant to real-world viewing, you're puttering beyond the useful. I'm happy to make my image pixels 2x2 or 3x3 DISPLAY pixels to get down to this without squinting, but then I know that, for my presentations, this is just a convenience for me. It's not like sub-pixel phenomena are at all relevant to viewers. So, in a nutshell, these zooms are a convenience for the photographer/image processor. Just to make SURE the image won't contain any detectable artifacts.
I think you have nailed it to a "T" here. The only time I need to go to greater detail than the base image is in botanical identification of tiny features. But that is not art. Otherwise, I look at like images sometimes to try to evaluate which is truly the best image. But to view an image I look at it from a distance that allows me to see the entire image from the same perspective. On my computer screen that is about 10-12" on a 5K 27" monitor. At that viewing distance, as long as my eyes are not drawn to some part of the image that is either OOF or obviously not sharp, I am happy with the image (composition and exposure notwithstanding) as those are also macro-evaluation factors.
I also find that people invariably move in closer to look at the finer details of even very large prints , I have 72" wide prints on my wall and after the initial look at the whole scene most folk move within touching distance to see the minutiae . I might just have nosey friends :-)
You have a good point, here, and I can imagine that. I would almost certainly do that (and I have) on some occasions. But my own curiosity is mostly technical. Like, I want to know what kind of a camera was used to take room-sized images. In admiring these room-sized images I always step back to take the image in within my range of vision in order to appreciate it. Clearly it's take a superhuman imagination to make something interesting happen in every part of a large image.
The only time I would look super closely at an image is, as I said botanical, or I might look at feather detail on a bird or scale detail on a butterfly....perhaps also rock crystals in a matrix.
It just occurred to me that, in a decade or more, I've never walked up close to the big art pieces on our wall. I just did, and you can see some of the technique and care used in creating them. So, an artist might get something out of this, but, I've never felt the art work itself benefitted from such inspection. My lack of imagination? Or, maybe contemporary artists haven't caught on to multi-scaled art. I'll have to talk to my son the artist about this.

I can't remember a time where I found artistic value in some tiny, tiny part of a much larger work. Maybe, but I cannot actually recall any instance. I admit that this might be a lack of artistic imagination, but, still, I'm waiting until I can conceive of such a work and then worry about how to create it.
I look at the big picture and evaluate especially a landscape image on that basis. Is there anything that is distracting as I view the image - from a distance where I can see the whole scene.
Ah, I DO remember some art where some macro scene is made out of zillions of little, bitty images you can's see from a distance. Kind of a one-trick pony, however, I think. The kind of thing a clever artist might do, and take all necessary pains to accomplish. But, hardly the kind of thing I think about doing on a regular basis.
Macro, yes. Landscape, no.
Thanks for the poke!
 
Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
It was built by Sony, but NIkon's overall design was able to squeeze a little more DR out of the sensor that what Sony could.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D800-versus-Sony-A7R___792_917
 
I am always amused and sort of flabbergasted that so many people are unable to look at themselves, their wants, and values and figure out which camera is right for them. So many here choose poorly because they didn't know much about themselves. Then complain that the camera they chose isn't some other camera that they could have chosen. And then on top of that they can at any time get that other camera, but instead live in misery with a camera that doesn't suit them.

If you crave lots more megapixels why in the world did you knowingly buy a camera that didn't have as many as you want? And then prolong your misery by not getting the camera that does have the number of megapixel you want?
Many don't buy individual cameras. They buy a system. That's what I did when I switched to mFT. What I didn't fully appreciate is how far behind other systems mFT would lag when it comes to sensor development (primarily with respect to mp but in other regards as well). It's ok to bemoan that lag and it's not always practical to jump from format to format.
I wonder how many people bought a Nikon D5 and a bunch of lenses for it expecting that in the future it would get much smaller and lighter and then are terribly disappointed that they bought into a system that is still big and heavy? Buying a D5 with the expectation that the big, professional Nikon DSLRs would later transform to the size of an E-M5II was unrealistic, IMO. Those big Nikon bodies and lenses still lag behind.

I think the best way is to know what you value and choose based on that. Not based on expectation that the system will transform itself compared to its rivals in the future.

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
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Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
You just did not have anything else to say than draw from the DPR own review text the material to call others as fools?
 
Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
You just did not have anything else to say than draw from the DPR own review text the material to call others as fools?
I didn't call anyone a 'fool'. 'More fool anyone' is a colloquial expression, it's not saying some is a fool, it's saying that they have been fooled. However, for an outlet such as DPR, taking manufacturer's marketing statements as fact is something of a journalistic failure.
 
Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
It was built by Sony, but NIkon's overall design was able to squeeze a little more DR out of the sensor that what Sony could.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D800-versus-Sony-A7R___792_917
It was designed and built by Sony. The same sensor (IMX096) was in the D800 and A7R. Those differences are well within DxOmark's error margin. Essentially, they are the same - it has nothing to do with 'Nikon's overall design', because the 'overall design' of the sensor is the same in the two cameras and its design was done by Sony, not Nikon.
 
Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
It was built by Sony, but NIkon's overall design was able to squeeze a little more DR out of the sensor that what Sony could.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D800-versus-Sony-A7R___792_917
It was designed and built by Sony. The same sensor (IMX096) was in the D800 and A7R. Those differences are well within DxOmark's error margin. Essentially, they are the same - it has nothing to do with 'Nikon's overall design', because the 'overall design' of the sensor is the same in the two cameras and its design was done by Sony, not Nikon.
I guess you were "fooled".

The sensor is one part, but there is more to the design and getting an image processed. Nikon has almost always "slightly" beaten Sony when using the same sensor due to their "better" overall designs.

Another classic example is D600 vs. A7 where there is even more of a difference.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D600-versus-Sony-A7___834_916

There is a bigger difference between D7200 and A6000 (or even the A6300/A6500 which camera a few years later).

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A6000-versus-Nikon-D7200___942_1020

Note: I did NOT call you a fool. But maybe you were fooled.
 
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The main advantage is lower price. The 16mp cameras are second generation, and the latest generation of 20mp cameras cost more.

Once you get a new toy, the old toy tends to stay in the toy box. But until you get the new toy, you can find comfort knowing your present toy, is already bought and paid for.

Currently Google Photos charges money, to store pictures of more than 16mp, or if you want free unlimited storage then Google whacks your 20mp pictures back down to below 16mp. With a 16mp sensor Google doesn’t have to reduce them.

16mp sensors generate smaller files than 20mp sensors. Storage space is not usually a big concern, but smaller files allow more photos on a card, or on a hard drive.

And four million less pixels on a 4/3” sensor mean you have fatter, bigger pixels, on the 16ml sensor, which may mean better pictures because of larger photosites, which may increase dynamic range. But the newer 20mp sensors may be so improved, as to negate that theoretical advantage.

But mainly, the advantage of a 16mp sensor is so long as you make do with what you have you don’t need to buy a new camera.

Using what you got, is free, the way I see it.

Besides, the idea is to wear one out, isn’t it?

--
Humansville is a town in the Missouri Ozarks
 
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Nikon D800, a monster 36Mpix camera was released in 2012, that was a HUGE thing with its 36 Mpix!

"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor
Which turned out to be 100% Sony developed and went into the standard Sony sensor catalogue, later being used in the original A7R and also the K1. More fool anyone who takes a company's marketing spiel at face value.
It was built by Sony, but NIkon's overall design was able to squeeze a little more DR out of the sensor that what Sony could.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D800-versus-Sony-A7R___792_917
It was designed and built by Sony. The same sensor (IMX096) was in the D800 and A7R. Those differences are well within DxOmark's error margin. Essentially, they are the same - it has nothing to do with 'Nikon's overall design', because the 'overall design' of the sensor is the same in the two cameras and its design was done by Sony, not Nikon.
I guess you were "fooled".
Not me. I said at the time that it was Sony, designed by Sony, built by Sony and I was proven right.
The sensor is one part, but there is more to the design and getting an image processed. Nikon has almost always "slightly" beaten Sony when using the same sensor due to their "better" overall designs.
Sure, no-one denies that, but generally we don't call designing the software in a camera 'developing' the sensor. If we do, then every camera manufacturer 'develops' their own sensors.
Another classic example is D600 vs. A7 where there is even more of a difference.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D600-versus-Sony-A7___834_916
Actually, nowhere near the difference between the $8000 D3X and the $3000 A900, which had the same sensor (even though at the time Nikon claimed to have developed it and some Nikon fans believed them). Same sensors, different firmware choices in operating those sensors.
There is a bigger difference between D7200 and A6000 (or even the A6300/A6500 which camera a few years later).
That could be because they have completely different sensors. The D7200 sensor is a Toshiba sensor (incorrectly speculated to be Sony by DPR) whilst the A6000 is a Sony.
I very definitely wasn't. I called it as a Sony sensor back then, I was derided by some who were fooled on the Nikon forums.
 
Maybe we have to think backwards:

we want:

-iso invariant sensors?

- lower base iso?

- better noise to signal ratio?

- wider Dynamic Range?

- low light and clean high iso images?

And if this is all better in the next 16Mp sensor, well some more pixels would be fine too.

how much do we need? 16Mp is 4K do we need 8K in the near future?

Cropping in post due wider angle shooting is a way to create some error room/space when you framing. Every one who isn't studio shooting and don't have the time to choose the right framing and ratio before taking the picture is using the crop in post. It's not a crime but not the goal eighter (bigger Mp to crop easier without quality losses)

Some people are arguing about sensor ratio factor. 4/3 or 3/4 or 3/2 or 1/1 (which would be sensible because of the circulair latent image the most effective ratio.)

It's all about which output you need. i like 3/4 because it gives you room for levelling horizon and choose the horizonhight for 9/16 output on FHD screen without losing to much pixels. But if your a 2/3 printer or 3/2 printer that's more your native sensor shape.

So make a square (1:1) sensor and let the user set his preferred ratio. :-)

Then you don't have the need to "turn camera 90 degrees for a portret" only change the exif ratio value and done ;-)
 
Sure, no-one denies that, but generally we don't call designing the software...
I didn't realize you think the sensor is the only hardware that matters in compiling the image.

That explains a lot. Maybe you should ask someone about application-specific integrated circuits (ASIC) , A/D converters and CPUs. Then come back and we can talk.
 
Sure, no-one denies that, but generally we don't call designing the software...
I didn't realize you think the sensor is the only hardware that matters in compiling the image.
"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor" - true or not?
Maybe you should ask someone about application-specific integrated circuits (ASIC) , A/D converters and CPUs.
Maybe you should ask Bob what those are and where A/D is in that camera (look up IMX094).
Then come back and we can talk.
 
Sure, no-one denies that, but generally we don't call designing the software...
I didn't realize you think the sensor is the only hardware that matters in compiling the image.
"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor" - true or not?
So you know for a fact Nikon was not involved at all and had no communications with Sony during development?

Where is you evidence?

I won't hold my breath. btw, I never said Nikon manufactured it or developed it. I did say Nikon has a history of getting better results than Sony according to DxO.
 
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Sure, no-one denies that, but generally we don't call designing the software...
I didn't realize you think the sensor is the only hardware that matters in compiling the image.
"At the heart of the D800 is a brand new Nikon-developed sensor" - true or not?
So you know for a fact Nikon was not involved at all and had no communications with Sony during development?
Do you see any Nikon markings or copyrights on the sensor? Which Nikon's patents cover that sensor? That's your answer.

Nikon made a statement to the effect that the sensor is their design, but offered no proof, and no factual refutation to the very vocal critics saying that it is nothing more than a marketing statement and the actual design team are Sony; while the critics have actual chip analysis saying it's Sony proving their point. That's your evidence.

I never said Nikon manufactured it or developed it.
..
getting better results than Sony according to DxO
Bob answered you, including the DxO part, here https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63012234

Ciao.
 
Nikon made a statement to the effect that the sensor is their design
Cool.

But again you are very confused.
I never said Nikon manufactured it or developed it.
I said Nikon often gets more out of the sensors than Sony if you go by DxO. I provided proof (links to DxO comparisons) too.

I also said there is to creating the image file than just the sensor which is obviously correct.

I hope that helps your confusion.
..
getting better results than Sony according to DxO
Bob answered you, including the DxO part, here https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63012234

Ciao.
 
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