James Bligh
Senior Member
I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5
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GR lll Review
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https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5
James Bligh
Senior Member
Hover-over, I did. The other way of looking at it may be for example positive film effect in GR3 is way down in intensity of colors than GR2 positive film. I think GR3 colors in general are muted compared with GR2 counterparts. Why is it so? Well, it may be a side-effect of noise reduction by preprocessor processing of RAW. Don't say it is RAW, jpeg is derived from RAW, so jpeg inevitably is influenced by RAW processing. And it explains premature desaturation of colors in GR3 RAW files as ISO climbs up.
Well, Leica is well out of my reach so I didn't bother to look at the samples.
You may educate me though, I am obliged.
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Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.
Alex
Just a Learner
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I like your post. The QC thing about this camera is something that few people in Ricoh forum are really in love with. They literally go find 3 seconds video on YouTube and create threads to show issue while they themselves never touched this camera. I have the camera third day after release and issue non existence. Photos look great and it complements my RX 100vi when I don’t need reach, it’s photo definitely look more DSLR look than RX100 vi.
I don't know but I'm sure they put some thought into it. The GR-ii Positive Film effect was often unusable on particular subjects because of oversaturation or saturation clipping of colors, especially reds. Greens in the Positive Film effect were very muted in the GR-ii, they may actually be less muted in the GR-iii.
A particular color rendering isn't really inherent in the raw file. You can pretty much impose any ICC color profile you want on the raw file, with any curve and amount of saturation you want.
As for the dull colors people complain about, I should maybe quote something from RIcoh's own website regarding their design philosophy for the GR-ii's rendering. This probably applies to the GR-ii:
- the most important quality a camera can have is neutrality."
- "The important thing for a camera is to naturally express the various types of light from around the world. However, this also means that a camera should not do so excessively."
- "The GR knows that excellent design is design that you cannot feel."
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Hi James. I just looked carefully at the GRiii studio test scene. Even at ISO 100 something funky is going on in the test scene with the jpeg - there is indeed obvious desaturation in the color patches and they are very uneven and full of cross-hatching, worms, and other artifacts artifacts - for example, the cyan patch looks pretty wretched.
But I think this is jpeg sharpening and noise reduction settings (as well as sharpening and NR in whatever viewer DPR uses for the RAW file too).
I opened the RAW GR3 file in Capture 1 with sharpening turned off. C1 applies the "DNG neutral" ICC profile to the RAW file. The colors look actually quite beautiful there, the color patches are evenly saturated areas of solid color, and there is no visible desaturation in the raw file as interpreted by C1.
Here is the image exported from C1. If you compare the color patches, for example, you will see they look much better. And remember this is with a generic "neutral" color profile in C1.
Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
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James Bligh
Senior Member
I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
--
You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'
Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
As I said, I downloaded the files and there's no cross hatching.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
Alex
James Bligh
Senior Member
I will wait for GR3 review in Imaging Resource. I find their reviews more detailed and thorough.Hi James. I just looked carefully at the GRiii studio test scene. Even at ISO 100 something funky is going on in the test scene with the jpeg - there is indeed obvious desaturation in the color patches and they are very uneven and full of cross-hatching, worms, and other artifacts artifacts - for example, the cyan patch looks pretty wretched.
But I think this is jpeg sharpening and noise reduction settings (as well as sharpening and NR in whatever viewer DPR uses for the RAW file too).
I opened the RAW GR3 file in Capture 1 with sharpening turned off. C1 applies the "DNG neutral" ICC profile to the RAW file. The colors look actually quite beautiful there, the color patches are evenly saturated areas of solid color, and there is no visible desaturation in the raw file as interpreted by C1.
Here is the image exported from C1. If you compare the color patches, for example, you will see they look much better. And remember this is with a generic "neutral" color profile in C1.
N.B.: I personally think Image Quality Comparison in Imaging Resource very methodical and trustworthy.
--
You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'
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Yeah, don't look at it on DPR. Download and open RAW with an editor such as C1 and the dirtiness, mutedness, haloes, etc., are all gone.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
James Bligh
Senior Member
OK, I understand what you mean. Downloaded files do not show crosshatches. Strange, dpreview forces me to do unnecessary labor? As I said in other thread I will wait for Imaging Resource GR3 review.As I said, I downloaded the files and there's no cross hatching.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
Alex
--
You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'
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Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
I used the default Win10 image viewer, on the ACR generated JPEG.Yeah, don't look at it on DPR. Download and open RAW with an editor such as C1 and the dirtiness, mutedness, haloes, etc., are all gone.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
Of course, I also opened the RAW in Silkypix... the point is, the files are already fine.
Alex
James Bligh
Senior Member
I may be mistaken. I see fine crossing lines also in the picture Olifaunt uploaded.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62676964
What I saw may be a monitor thing though I don’t know the right term for what I see. BTW what exactly does crosshatch look?
--
You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'
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Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
Well, it's not real crosshatching - but how should I call it? I'm talking about the artifacts clearly visible on the left side patch above.I may be mistaken. I see fine crossing lines also in the picture Olifaunt uploaded.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62676964
What I saw may be a monitor thing though I don’t know the right term for what I see. BTW what exactly does crosshatch look?
I see no issues with Olifaunt's picture, perhaps you could be more specific? The display chain - application/OS/drivers/video board/connection/monitor cannot be fully trusted either. For example, one can get interesting effects just by increasing the monitor's sharpening.
Alex
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James Bligh
Senior Member
I have dug into what cross hatching is.Well, it's not real crosshatching - but how should I call it? I'm talking about the artifacts clearly visible on the left side patch above.I may be mistaken. I see fine crossing lines also in the picture Olifaunt uploaded.I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.Are you talking about this?
Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?
Alex
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62676964
What I saw may be a monitor thing though I don’t know the right term for what I see. BTW what exactly does crosshatch look?
I see no issues with Olifaunt's picture, perhaps you could be more specific? The display chain - application/OS/drivers/video board/connection/monitor cannot be fully trusted either. For example, one can get interesting effects just by increasing the monitor's sharpening.
Alex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching
https://www.wikihow.com/Cross-Hatch
Now I know what crosshatch is.
What I have seen in your sample and Olifaunt’s picture seems to be vertical and horizontal lines of pixels of monitor* which are easily seen especially in bright color patches such as cyan and yellow.
* They are real crosshatches. Aren’t they?
I think what I have seen so far is the crosshatching in monitor screen, not an artifact which looks like crosshatch in picture but I can’t imagine it is not a real thing when dpreview has said the following.
(quote)
As that ISO value climbs even higher, we begin to clearly see evidence of this noise reduction on the GR III's Raw files (it's that sort of 'cross-hatching' pattern).
(unquote)
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5
--
You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'
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Andrew Mitchell
Senior Member
Strange they didn’t mention the camera being crippled (for some of us) by the lack of common aspect ratios. Which other camera makers seem to have no difficulty having.
For me, the aspect ratios, lack of flash, and very poor focusing in low light are totally unacceptable in a camera in this price bracket. And I was soooo looking forward to it. Bummer!
James Bligh
Senior Member
Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW
Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...73&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898
--
You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'
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Alex Sarbu
Forum Pro
I strongly disagree with your assessment.
First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.
Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:
- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.
- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).
- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.
What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.
Alex
I came to same conclusion, comparing GRIII raw samples at 100, 800 and 3200. I did not notice any shift in colors. Was actually going to compare in darktable with real values from the eyedropper, but will pass for now, seeing your post.
What we are seeing in the Nikon comparison is just wrong interpretations of the raw files from ACR.
I was l playing with these raw files yesterday in darktable. I do get color variance "patterns", as noted by olifaunt and others, in the colors of the color checker when reading the file without any kind of filtering. But processing with a tiny bit of raw denoising, will clean it up without removing important detail. There is a fair amount of colors that needs to be removed in the old BW picture, but that's expected.
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