ZS100 shutter (or something) shock

Richard Southworth · Jan 20, 2019

I generally shoot static subjects, leave the shutter set to electronic, and have been happy with images at all focal lengths. Decided to experiment to determine if any difference between mechanical and electronic, noticed the mechanical shots at longer focal lengths tended to be softer.

Anybody have similar experience? The first image is a 100% crop on a sunny day, at full zoom, of my neighbor's house number plate, using electronic shutter. Second similarly except mechanical. Both processed thru ACR with sharpening turned off.

Richard Southworth

Electronic shutter

Mechanical shutter

Jerry045 · Jan 20, 2019

Were you on a tripod? Was stabilization on or off?

Richard Southworth · Jan 20, 2019

Handheld and IS on. At 1/1600 I wouldn't expect either to make much difference, but a more dedicated person would shoot from a tripod. I'm mostly looking for user experiences.

Richard Southworth

Richard Southworth · Jan 20, 2019

Again, I have no complaints about the images from my ZS100, using electronic shutter and processing thru ACR with appropriate sharpening. Here's the electronic shutter image with normal sharpening applied, plenty "crisp" enough for me given the camera technology.

Richard Southworth

Electronic shutter sharpened in ACR

Jerry045 · Jan 20, 2019

Richard Southworth said:
Handheld and IS on. At 1/1600 I wouldn't expect either to make much difference, but a more dedicated person would shoot from a tripod. I'm mostly looking for user experiences.

Richard Southworth

Richard:

Unfortunately, I can't offer a user experience for the ZS100. If you don't feel like going to the tripod route, perhaps try using the self timer. It would eliminate any potential movement you might have possibly imparted to the camera when mashing the shutter button. Still, 1/1600 is pretty quick, but at that zoom range it does not take much to create some potential movement.

I know I seem to move my ZS19 down slightly as I press my shutter. Those small cameras are very light and it is really easy to move them. Larger cameras have more mass and take more force to move them. We are talking VERY SMALL movements. But it only takes a few pixels worth to look soft.

Edmund Dorf · Jan 20, 2019

This shot was taken with the zoom extended to the maximum and the lens stopped down to the maximum. At those extremes softer images should be expected.

jim mij · Jan 20, 2019

That’s interesting, did you take a few shots to rule out any variance ?

I take lots lots of pics at full range (jpg not raw) and do get some misses (which is obviously the cameras fault), but I’ve never tried the electronic shutter before. I’ll give a go next time i’m out

Thanks
Jim

Digital Nigel · Jan 20, 2019

jim mij said:
That’s interesting, did you take a few shots to rule out any variance ?

I take lots lots of pics at full range (jpg not raw) and do get some misses (which is obviously the cameras fault), but I’ve never tried the electronic shutter before. I’ll give a go next time i’m out

It's best to avoid using the e-Shutter when panning or there's horizontal subject movement. If you do, you risk the unpleasant rolling shutter 'jello' effect. It works fine for static subjects, or if there's only slow subject movement.

Mechanical shutter, no jello effect

-

E-shutter, with jello effect

Erik Ohlson · Jan 20, 2019

Edmund Dorf said:
This shot was taken with the zoom extended to the maximum and the lens stopped down to the maximum. At those extremes softer images should be expected.

Not having a ""1-inch"" sensor, I avoid commenting on ZS100/200 posts as a rule.

However I believe the advise here is worth trying: Open 'er UP!!

With 1/2.3 sensors the lens is at the edge of "Diffraction limit" when wide open, and any 'stopping down' degrades the image. ( Diffraction limit is 3mm - ad the very short focal length lenses for 1/2.3 sensors are right at 3mm opening at their widest: f3.3, so I ALWAYS hoot my ZS19 etc "WIde Open to get the sharpest possible image.

Since the "One Inch" sensor is still quite small the same thing may be taking place, here.

So, just for fun, try taking a series of shots with the lens set to it's widest setting ((when zoomed out the aperture will READ as if it's stopped down, but the opening will still be as large as it can be, physically)) ((the f-stop is a RATIO, not a measurement,))

Won't take long, and if it improves the image, great!

--
"Measure wealth not by things you have but by things for which you would not take money"
www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

Digital Nigel · Jan 20, 2019

Erik Ohlson said:
Edmund Dorf said:

This shot was taken with the zoom extended to the maximum and the lens stopped down to the maximum. At those extremes softer images should be expected.

Click to expand...

Not having a ""1-inch"" sensor, I avoid commenting on ZS100/200 posts as a rule.

However I believe the advise here is worth trying: Open 'er UP**!!**

Good advice, and despite what he said, he'd actually followed it: at max zoom, f/5.9 is wide open on the TZ100's very slow lens. So, far from stopping down, he'd actually opened the lens right up, just as you correctly advise.

Erik Ohlson said:
With 1/2.3 sensors the lens is at the edge of "Diffraction limit" when wide open, and any 'stopping down' degrades the image. ( Diffraction limit is 3mm - ad the very short focal length lenses for 1/2.3 sensors are right at 3mm opening at their widest: f3.3, so I ALWAYS hoot my ZS19 etc "WIde Open to get the sharpest possible image.

Since the "One Inch" sensor is still quite small the same thing may be taking place, here.

Yes, diffraction softening starts at about f/5.6 with 1" sensor cameras. Anything smaller is best avoided.

Erik Ohlson said:
So, just for fun, try taking a series of shots with the lens set to it's widest setting ((when zoomed out the aperture will READ as if it's stopped down, but the opening will still be as large as it can be, physically)) ((the f-stop is a RATIO, not a measurement,))

Won't take long, and if it improves the image, great!

Actually, the images he posted did have the lens wide open, despite his description being 'stopped down'. At f/5.9 diffraction is just starting to affect image quality, but won't affect any differences between the two shutter types.

kkardster · Jan 20, 2019

Some here seem to have missed the fact that this is a mechanical vs electronic shutter post - not an electronic shutter vs. motion or aperture vs. diffraction post. But like one response asked, were several samples taken with repeatable results?

If shutter shock was suspected, why not eliminate variables like hand-holding to have more comparable images? Try to make the shutter setting the only possible difference.

--
Bruce
You learn something new every time you press the shutter

Digital Nigel · Jan 20, 2019

kkardster said:
Some here seem to have missed the fact that this is a mechanical vs electronic shutter post - not an electronic shutter vs. motion or aperture vs. diffraction post. But like one response asked, were several samples taken with repeatable results?

If shutter shock was suspected, why not eliminate variables like hand-holding to have more comparable images? Try to make the shutter setting the only possible difference.

I don't think there is any shutter shock with leaf shutters. DSLRs have both mirror slap and relatively heavy focal plane shutters; compact cameras just move a set of symmetrical, light blades a tiny distance in the lens. I'm not sure in this case, but they're actually the aperture blades in some cameras.

Richard Southworth · Jan 20, 2019

I appreciate the posts from those of you who bothered to carefully read mine, and who kept on subject. Again, I was looking for experience of others with this camera, wrt to electronic vs. mechanical shutter. I have seen this difference on other images, although I confess I've haven't used a tripod, to create a more definitive comparison.

Richard Southworth

Erik Ohlson · Jan 20, 2019

Digital Nigel said:
Erik Ohlson said:

Edmund Dorf said:

This shot was taken with the zoom extended to the maximum and the lens stopped down to the maximum. At those extremes softer images should be expected.

Click to expand...

Not having a ""1-inch"" sensor, I avoid commenting on ZS100/200 posts as a rule.

However I believe the advise here is worth trying: Open 'er UP**!!**

Click to expand...

Good advice, and despite what he said, he'd actually followed it: at max zoom, f/5.9 is wide open on the TZ100's very slow lens. So, far from stopping down, he'd actually opened the lens right up, just as you correctly advise.

Digital Nigel said:

With 1/2.3 sensors the lens is at the edge of "Diffraction limit" when wide open, and any 'stopping down' degrades the image. ( Diffraction limit is 3mm - ad the very short focal length lenses for 1/2.3 sensors are right at 3mm opening at their widest: f3.3, so I ALWAYS hoot my ZS19 etc "WIde Open to get the sharpest possible image.

Since the "One Inch" sensor is still quite small the same thing may be taking place, here.

Click to expand...

Yes, diffraction softening starts at about f/5.6 with 1" sensor cameras. Anything smaller is best avoided.

Digital Nigel said:

So, just for fun, try taking a series of shots with the lens set to it's widest setting ((when zoomed out the aperture will READ as if it's stopped down, but the opening will still be as large as it can be, physically)) ((the f-stop is a RATIO, not a measurement,))

Won't take long, and if it improves the image, great!

Click to expand...

Actually, the images he posted did have the lens wide open, despite his description being 'stopped down'. At f/5.9 diffraction is just starting to affect image quality, but won't affect any differences between the two shutter types.

Thanks for the "large sensor" advise.

As I said, I don't usually go into specifics on a camera I don't have any experience with, but hoped it would help as the advise given was for other aspects of the camera.

Those images sure look soft: could this possibly be one of the "soft" ZS100's we see comments about?

--

"Measure wealth not by things you have but by things for which you would not take money"
www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

Jon_T · Jan 20, 2019

I have the ZS100 but have not yet needed to use the electronic shutter.

From your images EXIF data appears you're using the default Auto Multi-AF Frames.

If so switch to the single central AF Frame.

Also check in the Custom setup menu that the "Focus/Release Priority" is set to "Focus".

Then redo your Mech./ Elec. shutter test again to see if you get the same or better results.

Personally not to impressed with the Panasonic P&S camera's Auto Multi-AF Frames overall focusing.

Cheers,
Jon

Richard Southworth · Jan 21, 2019

No, single frame (center) focus, Aperture priority. I don't use multi frame focus. The house number is my focal point, center of scene.

I am on release priority, but given a static (hold half press for reasonable interval) situation I don't expect any difference.

I'll do some more experimenting, obviously to really claim "science" I'll have to use a tripod.

Richard Southworth

jim mij · Jan 21, 2019

hi

Previously my camera was on Auto shutter, so I've no idea what it actually uses day to day. Also I cant see anything in the EXIF to see what is being used

I took these examples (zs200 not zs100 at 360), I also used burst mode so took a few of each. I didn't really see any difference in shake shock between the bursts on any of them, they all look the same when viewed at actual pixels size

the LHS is electronic, the RHS is mechanical which does look better to me if I had to choose, but I assume that's probably just the contrast as the sun was perhaps out a bit more.

jim mij · Jan 21, 2019

Nice effect

Richard Southworth · Jan 21, 2019

Jim,

Thanks for a serious attempt to compare shutter modes. However, I believe the images have to be shot raw and converted with no sharpening, in order to get a valid comparison. The camera processing to create jpegs will probably hide the level of shake difference that I'm experiencing.

Richard Southworth

Richard Southworth · Jan 21, 2019

I finally did the obvious, mounted the camera on a tripod and turned of IS. used the 10 second timer. No apparent difference when processed thru ACR with no sharpening, so I guess it comes back to normal variability when hand holding, or whatever.

I like the camera, find it to be a good carry around, and I'll leave it in electronic shutter, if for no other reason than I don't have to worry about topping out on shutter speed. And yes, I understand the effects of an electronic shutter with moving subjects.

Richard Southworth

ZS100 shutter (or something) shock

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