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RX100 Mark 4 vs M6 lens question

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viper699

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never owner these- I know the Mark 4 has a better lens, believe it’s 1.8, and M6 around 2.4 perhaps.

of course the M6 has a 200mm lens and the M4 is a 70mm

Question is- with point and shoot how big of a difference with this make for low light situations?

Dont want to buy the 6 and have to retun it with some restocking fee from BestBuy.
 
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It makes exactly 1.3 stops ISO noise difference; determine if you do more indoor or telephoto shooting and decide from there..
 
viper699 said:
never owner these- I know the Mark 4 has a better lens, believe it’s 1.8, and M6 around 2.4 perhaps.

of course the M6 has a 200mm lens and the M4 is a 70mm

Question is- with point and shoot how big of a difference with this make for low light situations?
Click to expand...
A small camera always comes with some compromises, we just have to learn to live with it.

Maybe use higher ISO more often and use raw files and DxO Prime noise reduction to get a better result than the camera jpegs.
viper699 said:
Dont want to buy the 6 and have to retun it with some restocking fee from BestBuy.
Click to expand...
Hopefully some time next week I will have an answer.

I have the M6 but yet to give it a workout in a simulated "holiday".

When the weather cools here a bit we will take the M6 to Sydney and be a tourist for a day leading into night and see how the M6 performs for my wife. She shoots everything and anything under all conditions with varying success due to mostly using a big zoom ("25-450mm") 1/2.3 inch sensored pocket camera. I want her to have more image reliability, especially for the night shots.

I want to see how the M6 handles for her - which for me will be a good indicator to whether I should wait for an improved M5 that gets the major features of the M6 (easy EVF, tilt screen, touch screen shooting) or just go with a second M6 for me when we want to travel light. Early testing looks like the second M6 option as low light does not seem to be a major problem for the "lesser apertures" of the M6.

Naturally my approach is that If I really needed or wanted low light performance then I need to drag the bag of M4/3 gear, but now in my old age I would much rather just have a small and capable camera in a belt pouch for many occasions.

The "24mm to 200mm" range is ideal for a travel camera, plus as noted elsewhere here, a simple 2x crop at "200mm" gives me a 5MP image at "400mm" so that would surely keep me (and my wife) happy.

Short trip to Singapore looming in April so I want to be ready for that, haven't holidayed there since 1999. Previous trips were 1972, 1983 and 1999, so I do see massive changes all the way through.

Regards.... Guy
 
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It is slower, but apparently the image stabilization has also improved which some reports say make up for the slower lens.

In my case I like taking night shots at iso160 (or higher if needed) f1.8 30sec on a tripod, so the image stabilization wouldn't help. If the camera had a 'bulb' shutter capability the slower lens would be OK.

I have long used a RX100mkII and have a mkVA arriving today.
 
Well I tend to shoot day shots of landscape, and city scenes or monuments, mostly day, but some night as well.

I don’t shoot indoors too often. I never shoot people especially indoors.

It is a tough compromise.

The 6 certainly has the best EVF of the lineup.
 
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viper699 said:
Well I tend to shoot day shots of landscape, and city scenes or monuments, mostly day, but some night as well.

I don’t shoot indoors too often. I never shoot people especially indoors.

It is a tough compromise.

The 6 certainly has the best EVF of the lineup.
Click to expand...
In many cases, due to it's newly designed IS, and, if Jpeg, it's more aggressive in-camera NR, the wide f2.8 start of m6 is not as limiting as you might think, however, when zoomed, the m6 darkens quickly, to f4.5, and that is where the difference, darker lens, has more limitations when motion or low light are involved.

Travel, variety of situations, mini-tripod, steady EVF arms in shooting, better IS allowing handheld slower shutter speeds, ... there are methods to overcome the limitations to have the advantage of m6's reach.

Nothing you mentioned involves motion, so f2.8 start/f4,5 finish is not as much of a concern as it is for those of us shooting grandchildren in sports on an overcast day.
 
elliottnewcomb said:
viper699 said:
Well I tend to shoot day shots of landscape, and city scenes or monuments, mostly day, but some night as well.

I don’t shoot indoors too often. I never shoot people especially indoors.

It is a tough compromise.

The 6 certainly has the best EVF of the lineup.
Click to expand...
In many cases, due to it's newly designed IS, and, if Jpeg, it's more aggressive in-camera NR, the wide f2.8 start of m6 is not as limiting as you might think, however, when zoomed, the m6 darkens quickly, to f4.5, and that is where the difference, darker lens, has more limitations when motion or low light are involved.

Travel, variety of situations, mini-tripod, steady EVF arms in shooting, better IS allowing handheld slower shutter speeds, ... there are methods to overcome the limitations to have the advantage of m6's reach.

Nothing you mentioned involves motion, so f2.8 start/f4,5 finish is not as much of a concern as it is for those of us shooting grandchildren in sports on an overcast day.
Click to expand...
 
I might suggest starting with the m6, that is the one with big changes, if not bright enough, we all know what the m1,2,3,4,5 can do, m5a having both 4k movies and Super PDCD AF, super 24fps, as does the m6.

I studied the heck out of the m6, finally kept it, glad I did, I put a ton of info and sample shots in the second section of this thread

 
elliottnewcomb said:
I might suggest starting with the m6, that is the one with big changes, if not bright enough, we all know what the m1,2,3,4,5 can do, m5a having both 4k movies and Super PDCD AF, super 24fps, as does the m6.

I studied the heck out of the m6, finally kept it, glad I did, I put a ton of info and sample shots in the second section of this thread

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61457004
Click to expand...
My choice was because the M6 is intended for my wife to replace her ageing Casio pocket camera that does a good daylight job with its "25-450mm" lens, but falls down as the light gets low.

Before she takes it over I'm having fun with the M6 and will most likely end up with a second one for me.

The original idea was M6 for her and M5A for me but the M6 seems to be doing all that I need in a small camera so it makes much more sense to stay with that for that "70mm to 200mm" range. Indeed I was very happy with a 2x 5MP crop to get "400mm".

I realise that I will have to spend more time at higher ISO because of the lesser apertures of the M6 but using raw plus DxO Photolab and Prime noise reduction seems to be a valid answer to that.

In my case I feel that the zoom restrictions of the M5A would annoy me for my intended use as a general purpose travel camera. Lack of tilt screen would be the biggest annoyance for me as a screen only user (most of the time).

Logically to me the M5A should have had a wider lens, like in a Casio pocket camera I have that has a "19mm to 95mm" performance, not the best lens in that case but the convenience of its "19mm" ability is amazingly useful.

Regards..... Guy
 
Guy Parsons said:
Lack of tilt screen would be the biggest annoyance for me as a screen only user (most of the time).
Click to expand...
The 5 screen tilts up (and forward) as much as the 6. The difference is it only tilts down 45 vs 90deg. I've used a 2 for years and never wanted more down tilt. Also in the rare case one needs 90deg down the camera can be held upside down, but 40deg has always worked for me.
 
noisebeam said:
Guy Parsons said:
Lack of tilt screen would be the biggest annoyance for me as a screen only user (most of the time).
Click to expand...
The 5 screen tilts up (and forward) as much as the 6. The difference is it only tilts down 45 vs 90deg. I've used a 2 for years and never wanted more down tilt. Also in the rare case one needs 90deg down the camera can be held upside down, but 40deg has always worked for me.
Click to expand...
Sorry about that, I had the misunderstanding that the M5 screen did not tilt. I guess I can blame a sales person for that, or my bad hearing. :-(

Yes, the 90deg down tilt seems a bit unnecessary, other cameras with tilt down I've never used or felt the need for 90deg.

90deg up yes, as then low level shooting is a breeze. Forward no, selfies are not my thing.

Anyway, back to the thread, the M6 still wins for me because of the useful zoom range.

Regards........ Guy
 
elliottnewcomb said:
I might suggest starting with the m6, that is the one with big changes, if not bright enough, we all know what the m1,2,3,4,5 can do, m5a having both 4k movies and Super PDCD AF, super 24fps, as does the m6.

I studied the heck out of the m6, finally kept it, glad I did, I put a ton of info and sample shots in the second section of this thread

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61457004
Click to expand...
I see what you mean from that perspective. I'll go w/the M6.

Thanks for the link! That's quite a lot of material, most impressive. I have bookmarked it.

For 4K video, what type of SD card would you recommend?

Also, do you recommend a DUAL battery charger?
 
viper699 said:
elliottnewcomb said:
I might suggest starting with the m6, that is the one with big changes, if not bright enough, we all know what the m1,2,3,4,5 can do, m5a having both 4k movies and Super PDCD AF, super 24fps, as does the m6.

I studied the heck out of the m6, finally kept it, glad I did, I put a ton of info and sample shots in the second section of this thread

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61457004
Click to expand...
I see what you mean from that perspective. I'll go w/the M6.

Thanks for the link! That's quite a lot of material, most impressive. I have bookmarked it.

For 4K video, what type of SD card would you recommend?
Click to expand...
When I attempted 4K with a plain jane SDHC class 10 card, the camera nagged me to go buy a UHS-I or UHS-II U3 card. Yet to get near a shop to do that, it will be 64g or 128g I guess.
viper699 said:
Also, do you recommend a DUAL battery charger?
Click to expand...
I went with the tiny Sony USB charger, neat and small, the battery slides into a little drawer. The warning is not to leave the battery in any charger after it finishes, because it will slowly drain the battery (as somebody else here found out).

Regards.... Guy
 
viper699 said:
elliottnewcomb said:
I might suggest starting with the m6, that is the one with big changes, if not bright enough, we all know what the m1,2,3,4,5 can do, m5a having both 4k movies and Super PDCD AF, super 24fps, as does the m6.

I studied the heck out of the m6, finally kept it, glad I did, I put a ton of info and sample shots in the second section of this thread

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61457004
Click to expand...
I see what you mean from that perspective. I'll go w/the M6.

Thanks for the link! That's quite a lot of material, most impressive. I have bookmarked it.

For 4K video, what type of SD card would you recommend?
Click to expand...
It is not just 4K. Shooting continuous, i.e. sports, you want the fastest write time possible so the write from buffer to card is quicker, because you cannot shoot during the transfer.

I buy microSD cards in SD adapters. There is no speed delay using the adapter, and then I have the flexibility to move the microSD card into my tablet, other camera, ...

I buy faster than the camera can use, if affordable, because the next camera might be able to use that advanced speed.
viper699 said:
Also, do you recommend a DUAL battery charger?
Click to expand...
No real need, why not, but, this one for instance, is only USB powered.

Loading…

www.ebay.com

I prefer having 120v and auto 12v adapter, much more flexible.

Loading…

www.ebay.com

I wish I numbered and dated my batteries with a marker as I bought them, I have a mess of them, some over 6 years old, and some are not holding a charge as long as others. I need to sort them out, toss a few.

At these prices, why not have both?
 
elliottnewcomb said:
viper699 said:
elliottnewcomb said:
I might suggest starting with the m6, that is the one with big changes, if not bright enough, we all know what the m1,2,3,4,5 can do, m5a having both 4k movies and Super PDCD AF, super 24fps, as does the m6.

I studied the heck out of the m6, finally kept it, glad I did, I put a ton of info and sample shots in the second section of this thread

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61457004
Click to expand...
I see what you mean from that perspective. I'll go w/the M6.

Thanks for the link! That's quite a lot of material, most impressive. I have bookmarked it.

For 4K video, what type of SD card would you recommend?
Click to expand...
It is not just 4K. Shooting continuous, i.e. sports, you want the fastest write time possible so the write from buffer to card is quicker, because you cannot shoot during the transfer.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? I thought you could continue shooting while the buffer was flushed to card. If the buffer is full, the frame rate drops to the card write speed, otherwise it maintains the same continuous speed you selected. But you can always keep shooting while the data is written to card.

With the M6, the buffer is so large that it's hard to fill it, so you can effectively shoot as much as you like, at any continuous frame rate you like.
elliottnewcomb said:
I buy microSD cards in SD adapters. There is no speed delay using the adapter, and then I have the flexibility to move the microSD card into my tablet, other camera, ...

I buy faster than the camera can use, if affordable, because the next camera might be able to use that advanced speed.
elliottnewcomb said:
Also, do you recommend a DUAL battery charger?
Click to expand...
No real need, why not, but, this one for instance, is only USB powered.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NP-BX1-Battery-Charger-for-Sony-DSC-RX100-I-II-III-IV-V-DSC-HX400V-HDR-CX405-B/312269872451?hash=item48b4bc1d43:m:mRJ_J-5941RKiUAapVa6WCQ:rk:1:pf:0

I prefer having 120v and auto 12v adapter, much more flexible.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kastar-Battery-and-Normal-Charger-Kit-for-Sony-NP-BX1-Type-X-CyberShot-DSC-RX100/253239346090?hash=item3af63dc3aa:rk:5:pf:0&var

I wish I numbered and dated my batteries with a marker as I bought them, I have a mess of them, some over 6 years old, and some are not holding a charge as long as others. I need to sort them out, toss a few.
Click to expand...
Yes, good idea.
elliottnewcomb said:
At these prices, why not have both?
Click to expand...
 
Digital Nigel said:
Digital Nigel said:
elliottnewcomb wrote

It is not just 4K. Shooting continuous, i.e. sports, you want the fastest write time possible so the write from buffer to card is quicker, because you cannot shoot during the transfer.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? I thought you could continue shooting while the buffer was flushed to card. If the buffer is full, the frame rate drops to the card write speed, otherwise it maintains the same continuous speed you selected. But you can always keep shooting while the data is written to card.

With the M6, the buffer is so large that it's hard to fill it, so you can effectively shoot as much as you like, at any continuous frame rate you like.
Click to expand...
Saved by Nigel once again! You are so right.

I take short sequences when it looks like something might happen, then stop. Easier to edit later. I shoot my foot between sequences, makes it easy to find something you might remember (not me), and, importantly for me, deleting whole sequences where nothing developed. I do not like editing!

Based on older technology when you had to wait, I have been watching the 'writing to card icon' between sequences, thinking I could not shoot until the write was complete. Wrong! Missing a quick bit of Ben's soccer, Cooper's Ice Hockey, Ava's Softball, and now Ben has joined the Wrestling team.

What a treat to know I can resume shooting continuous as soon as I want. It simply stops writing, and shoots some more.

1st experience with rx100m6, 24fps, action park with the kids, 24fps, 4 sec takes 100 pics, if 20mp image size, Jpef Extra Fine, takes about 30 secs to write. I have been missing whatever might happen in those 30 secs. thanks to you, no more.

I don't use 24fps, it is for golf swings, bullets thru watermelons, I use 10fps, occassionally 3fps, itself amazing when you stop and think about it. Less to write, and less to edit later.

Also, to get SZ smart zoom 201-280mm for soccer, I drop down to 10mp image size, get in-camera crop. Those are smaller files, the write time (which doesn't matter I now see) is quicker.

Thanks for correcting me on this Nigel,
 
Thanks for this info.

i skimmed around about shooting RAW. As with all new cameras there’s always a bit of delay for RAW conversion with Adobe. The camera doesn’t have conversion in-camera. Heard people have to use the Sony software.
 
elliottnewcomb said:
.....I don't use 24fps, it is for golf swings, bullets thru watermelons, I use 10fps, occassionally 3fps, itself amazing when you stop and think about it. Less to write, and less to edit later.
Click to expand...
Some Casio pocket cameras in the house can do 16MP at up to 30fps, but as you know, you end up with a lot of nothing useful in a burst.

In the end I set them (and my M4/3 gear) to around 5fps as a good compromise between capturing human movement and the amount of junk to wade through later. So later I will be reducing the M6 burst rate to something sensible, and using a way faster card than I am at present.

Regards.... Guy
 
viper699 said:
Thanks for this info.

i skimmed around about shooting RAW. As with all new cameras there’s always a bit of delay for RAW conversion with Adobe. The camera doesn’t have conversion in-camera. Heard people have to use the Sony software.
Click to expand...
My regret with earlier cameras was not taking raw+jpeg forever. I used only to take the "difficult" ones that way.

But as raw converters improved, my skills improved (questionable) and storage costs plummeted, it made sense to keep with raw+jpeg on every camera and use the jpeg or the raws as I saw fit. The raws will always be there to go back to, they are my file of "negatives" so to speak, to rework later for favourite shots as things get better.

In my case settled on DxO Photolab and use the Prime noise reduction on all images, slow, but hey, I can go mow the lawns while I wait for a big batch to finish.

The fastest raw converter on the planet appears to be Corel AfterShot Pro 3 (came from Bibble) plus it is very often discounted heavily. Not quite as good a DxO for a result but has some nicer features and adjust methods, it is probably all that most folks would need.

Regards..... Guy
 
viper699 said:
Well I tend to shoot day shots of landscape, and city scenes or monuments, mostly day, but some night as well.

I don’t shoot indoors too often. I never shoot people especially indoors.

It is a tough compromise.

The 6 certainly has the best EVF of the lineup.
Click to expand...
Sounds very similar to my shooting interests- Landscapes, city scenes, some wildlife...- and the reasons I bought the M6- mainly for the lens reach, small form factor plus the some of the other features such as the high FPS and HFR video- has worked out great!

One thought I had regarding your lens comparison question- F2.8 vs 1.8. Years ago, my main shooter was a Canon 70D and with a 70-200mm F2.8 ISF lens. F2.8 was plenty fast then (Kids sports, wildlife, etc.) and as far as I understand, you really won't miss that F1.8 unless your really want that short DoF or looking for more Bokeh... I know most high end phone lenses can shoot at F1.8, but iirc, F1.8 lenses used to be used mainly for portraiture.

As I currently shoot mainly in Auto mode (though I'm working on re-learning how to use more of the manual/semi manual settings), I know I'm missing out on better shots because of that. When I have spent some time trying to set up AV or TV settings, the results are hit and miss, but the hits come out much better than Auto mode... totally haven't missed the extra stops.

One other feature I read about that you WILL get with the M4 is the built in ND filter, that other owners have said is a deal killer not to have- This I have yet to be in a situation where I thought it would have made a huge difference. But my photography skill my not be nuanced enough yet to notice.

Good luck with your decision and if you buy it at Best Buy, look into their membership program- thanks to what I do for work, I'm a Plat Elite level and with that I get 45day returns with no restocking fee on anything
 
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