Deciding on ISO for indoor low light, with a speedlite

Hey guys,
thanks for all the info and advice you've given me thus far. I tried to figure this one out myself, but it's not working out for me, so i wanted to ask you.

I've been shooting events lately, and i find myself struggling with determining the proper iso for a scene, let alone for the variety of scenes at a party or venue.

Obviously i want to keep it low for the sake of details and such, but sometimes it doesn't work in terms of giving me a look that i'm good with.

I suppose it would be easiest to let the camera work at 100 and my speedlite do the rest, but i really dont like shots where the subject is well lit, but i almost lose the background in darkness. I dont mind compromising a little to get the background up, but i want to do it only as much as i can get away with without losing the detail.

Im not asking for a set number, but rather a method of calculating it, based on what i'm working with in terms of light and whether i do ttl or manual.

Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?

Does that make sense?

btw
I use sony a77, with 16-50mm 2.8, and a hvl-43am speedlite with a dome diffuser.

OUTTHERENJ said:

Hey guys,
thanks for all the info and advice you've given me thus far. I tried to figure this one out myself, but it's not working out for me, so i wanted to ask you.
I've been shooting events lately, and i find myself struggling with determining the proper iso for a scene, let alone for the variety of scenes at a party or venue.
Obviously i want to keep it low for the sake of details and such, but sometimes it doesn't work in terms of giving me a look that i'm good with.
I suppose it would be easiest to let the camera work at 100 and my speedlite do the rest, but i really dont like shots where the subject is well lit, but i almost lose the background in darkness. I dont mind compromising a little to get the background up, but i want to do it only as much as i can get away with without losing the detail.
Im not asking for a set number, but rather a method of calculating it, based on what i'm working with in terms of light and whether i do ttl or manual.
Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?
Does that make sense?

btw
I use sony a77, with 16-50mm 2.8, and a hvl-43am speedlite with a dome diffuser.

Click to expand...

If you use a flash, you are going to have the subject well lit and the background quite dark. This is how it works. There is no setting to change this. The only "setting" which would work is to use lots of illumination in the entire area. Playing with ISO won't help.

You could try shooting in RAW and seeing if you can lift the shadow noise.

Or shoot with bracketing and create a HDR image.

Or shoot without a flash and use a f/1.4 lens and deal with a little or alot of noise from higher ISOs; the amount of noise would depending on how much light there is and how high you need to set your ISO levels as a result. ISO is adjusted when you have established your f-number for the desired depth of field, set your shutter speed to the level needed to freeze the motion and you still need more light to get proper exposure. So if you want shallow DOF you can try f/1.4, and your subjects are not moving too fast you can try a shutter speed of 1/100 to 1/250 (adjust up or down to get desired results) then you look in your viewfinder and adjust ISO until the scene is properly exposed. Alternately you can try it with your f/2.8 as this is reasonably fast, but an f/1.4 lens would let in 4x as much light (f/1.4 is 2 stops faster than f/2.8)

OUTTHERENJ said:

Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?
Does that make sense?

Click to expand...

I can't give you a formula, but you can shoot some test photos to figure out how to get the best results.

With flash, you have a few variables at your disposal.

Aperture, shutter, flash power, and flash direction.

Now matter how much flash power you use, it is almost instantaneous. The slower your shutter, the more ambient light you will get. So put your camera in manual and shoot with the slowest shutter you can manage. That will vary by your subject and your focal length. Moving subjects will be blurry with slower shutters, and longer lenses require faster shutters.

If your flash is tilt/swivel, you can point it away from your subject. You can bounce light off the ceiling, of course, but you can also bounce it off walls and other objects.

With digital cameras it is easy to review the shots to see if you're getting what you want.

BobSC said:

OUTTHERENJ said:

Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?
Does that make sense?

Click to expand...

I can't give you a formula, but you can shoot some test photos to figure out how to get the best results.

With flash, you have a few variables at your disposal.

Aperture, shutter, flash power, and flash direction.

Now matter how much flash power you use, it is almost instantaneous. The slower your shutter, the more ambient light you will get. So put your camera in manual and shoot with the slowest shutter you can manage. That will vary by your subject and your focal length. Moving subjects will be blurry with slower shutters, and longer lenses require faster shutters.

If your flash is tilt/swivel, you can point it away from your subject. You can bounce light off the ceiling, of course, but you can also bounce it off walls and other objects.
With digital cameras it is easy to review the shots to see if you're getting what you want.

Click to expand...

so would it be good to set iso ap and shutter to optimize my exposure for ambient, with flash off, and then turn it on and use in ttl?

OUTTHERENJ said:

so would it be good to set iso ap and shutter to optimize my exposure for ambient, with flash off, and then turn it on and use in ttl?

Click to expand...

I don't know how TTL works on your camera. If you can use it with manual exposure, then that would probably work out well. I always use manual flash. But yeah, figure out some settings that will give you some ambient light, and then use the flash for the main light. And bounce will generally give you more light in more places than direct flash.

This rather simplistic approach to flash photography in TTL mode may help you. It works well provided you are operating within the range of the flash.

• Set the camera exposure mode to M
• Make sure that the flash in in TTL mode
• Aperture controls the depth of field
• ISO controls the range and recycle time
• Shutter speed controls the balance between light from the flash and ambient light

Try setting the aperture to, say, f/5.6, the ISO to 400 and then vary the shutter speed between 1/30 and 1/120 and see what that does to the background illumination.

OUTTHERENJ said:

BobSC said:

OUTTHERENJ said:

Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?
Does that make sense?

Click to expand...

I can't give you a formula, but you can shoot some test photos to figure out how to get the best results.

With flash, you have a few variables at your disposal.

Aperture, shutter, flash power, and flash direction.

Now matter how much flash power you use, it is almost instantaneous. The slower your shutter, the more ambient light you will get. So put your camera in manual and shoot with the slowest shutter you can manage. That will vary by your subject and your focal length. Moving subjects will be blurry with slower shutters, and longer lenses require faster shutters.

If your flash is tilt/swivel, you can point it away from your subject. You can bounce light off the ceiling, of course, but you can also bounce it off walls and other objects.
With digital cameras it is easy to review the shots to see if you're getting what you want.

Click to expand...

so would it be good to set iso ap and shutter to optimize my exposure for ambient, with flash off, and then turn it on and use in ttl?

Click to expand...

By Jove, I think he's got it...almost.

I do a LOT of events and take shots doing exactly what you are wanting. Here is how I do it:

• Pick a non-zoom lens. I normally use a 50mm f/1.4. This limits the type pictures you can get, but I often go back to the bag and get a different lens. Infrequently, I strap on a second camera w/ a different lens.
• When I'm in a ballroom or convention center, the lighting is reasonable uniform, so the first thing I do is to set the camera to M-mode and take a test shot. I start with the exposure about 2 stops dark and adjust it until I like the brightness. I want to see the background, but have it dim.
• Depending on exactly what I'm shooting, I set the aperture between f/2.8 and f/8. I use f/2.8 when I was a LOT of blur in the background and the subject is only one person. When I'm shooting a group, I stop down to increase the DoF so that everyone in the group has a chance of being in focus.
• I use a flash off the camera. Normally, I don't use the wireless CLS [I'm using Nikon stuff] because it has pre-flashes that cause some people to blink. I use a cable. I hold the flash in my left hand.
• In general, hold the flash at arms length, as this gives nice looking shadows. Put a diffuser/card, or fan on the flash to make the light size bigger. I rarely bounce, because the rooms I'm in don't have white ceilings and are too tall to work well.
• I operate the camera w/ my right hand. That is why I don't use a zoom lens [I would need 3 hands].
• The Nikon TTL system will expose the subject correctly. Your manual settings will handle the background.
• Using flash, of course you have to select an exposure time that is compatible w/ your body and not so slow that you "drag the shutter" to produce blurry ghost images [unless you want that effect].
• I don't use auto-ISO as it changes the brightness of the background. I want the TTL system to just vary the flash duration to get the subject.

chuxter said:

OUTTHERENJ said:

BobSC said:

OUTTHERENJ said:

Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?
Does that make sense?

Click to expand...

I can't give you a formula, but you can shoot some test photos to figure out how to get the best results.

With flash, you have a few variables at your disposal.

Aperture, shutter, flash power, and flash direction.

Now matter how much flash power you use, it is almost instantaneous. The slower your shutter, the more ambient light you will get. So put your camera in manual and shoot with the slowest shutter you can manage. That will vary by your subject and your focal length. Moving subjects will be blurry with slower shutters, and longer lenses require faster shutters.

If your flash is tilt/swivel, you can point it away from your subject. You can bounce light off the ceiling, of course, but you can also bounce it off walls and other objects.
With digital cameras it is easy to review the shots to see if you're getting what you want.

Click to expand...

so would it be good to set iso ap and shutter to optimize my exposure for ambient, with flash off, and then turn it on and use in ttl?

Click to expand...

By Jove, I think he's got it...almost.

I do a LOT of events and take shots doing exactly what you are wanting. Here is how I do it:

• Pick a non-zoom lens. I normally use a 50mm f/1.4. This limits the type pictures you can get, but I often go back to the bag and get a different lens. Infrequently, I strap on a second camera w/ a different lens.
• When I'm in a ballroom or convention center, the lighting is reasonable uniform, so the first thing I do is to set the camera to M-mode and take a test shot. I start with the exposure about 2 stops dark and adjust it until I like the brightness. I want to see the background, but have it dim.
• Depending on exactly what I'm shooting, I set the aperture between f/2.8 and f/8. I use f/2.8 when I was a LOT of blur in the background and the subject is only one person. When I'm shooting a group, I stop down to increase the DoF so that everyone in the group has a chance of being in focus.
• I use a flash off the camera. Normally, I don't use the wireless CLS [I'm using Nikon stuff] because it has pre-flashes that cause some people to blink. I use a cable. I hold the flash in my left hand.
• In general, hold the flash at arms length, as this gives nice looking shadows. Put a diffuser/card, or fan on the flash to make the light size bigger. I rarely bounce, because the rooms I'm in don't have white ceilings and are too tall to work well.
• I operate the camera w/ my right hand. That is why I don't use a zoom lens [I would need 3 hands].
• The Nikon TTL system will expose the subject correctly. Your manual settings will handle the background.
• Using flash, of course you have to select an exposure time that is compatible w/ your body and not so slow that you "drag the shutter" to produce blurry ghost images [unless you want that effect].
• I don't use auto-ISO as it changes the brightness of the background. I want the TTL system to just vary the flash duration to get the subject.

Click to expand...

Cool. That makes sense. Thanks.

OUTTHERENJ said:

Hey guys,
thanks for all the info and advice you've given me thus far. I tried to figure this one out myself, but it's not working out for me, so i wanted to ask you.
I've been shooting events lately, and i find myself struggling with determining the proper iso for a scene, let alone for the variety of scenes at a party or venue.
Obviously i want to keep it low for the sake of details and such, but sometimes it doesn't work in terms of giving me a look that i'm good with.
I suppose it would be easiest to let the camera work at 100 and my speedlite do the rest, but i really dont like shots where the subject is well lit, but i almost lose the background in darkness. I dont mind compromising a little to get the background up, but i want to do it only as much as i can get away with without losing the detail.
Im not asking for a set number, but rather a method of calculating it, based on what i'm working with in terms of light and whether i do ttl or manual.
Can anyone give me some direction for calculating what i need for a given scene to give me the most even background foreground light for a shot?
Does that make sense?

btw
I use sony a77, with 16-50mm 2.8, and a hvl-43am speedlite with a dome diffuser.

Click to expand...

Outdoor Speedlight Portraits: Episode 201: Digital Photography 1 on 1: Adorama Photography TV

Don't let the title fool you, the basic concept applies indoors our out.

--

All statements in my posts represent my interpretation of data, research opinion or viewpoints.
The opinions expressed are not representations of fact, and are subject to change without notice.
All images are used for educational purposes.

Canon DSLR, if set to AutoISO, will lock itself to 400ISO when used with a flash, which gives some idea as to what Canon engineers think is the optimal ISO for flash. But, you are not using a Canon, right?

Kelby covers flash use fairly well in this book:


Though it might be a good idea to get the set of all 4. I caught a deal and managed to get Kindle edition for something like $15 for the set.

A fairly common technique is to drag the shutter - set it to something rather slow like 1/30, and make sure your flash is set to 2nd curtain.

scorrpio said:

Canon DSLR, if set to AutoISO, will lock itself to 400ISO when used with a flash, which gives some idea as to what Canon engineers think is the optimal ISO for flash. But, you are not using a Canon, right?

Kelby covers flash use fairly well in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Photo...977&sr=8-3&keywords=kelby+digital+photography

Though it might be a good idea to get the set of all 4. I caught a deal and managed to get Kindle edition for something like $15 for the set.

A fairly common technique is to drag the shutter - set it to something rather slow like 1/30, and make sure your flash is set to 2nd curtain.

Click to expand...

cool. And i forgot about the second curtain option. i will have to experiment with that. thanks

Something like a flash disk would be nice to have.

Am not qualified to advise as I am at the bottom of the learning curve but why not use more than one flash with the second one a distance away and use radio triggers - maybe that will give more depth. The only problem is that the trigger that support remote control of the second (or third) head are a lot more expensive.

The only problem is that you would need an assistant to hold the second flash or risk it going walkabout is it was a distance away from you.

--
My permanently unfinished web site
http://www.8thday.co.uk

chuxter said:

• I use a flash off the camera. Normally, I don't use the wireless CLS [I'm using Nikon stuff] because it has pre-flashes that cause some people to blink. I use a cable. I hold the flash in my left hand.

Click to expand...

You use a cable? The kind that plug in? Do they still make cables?

Judging by results, more people should use cables. Very good work even though you only have 2 hands.

Leonard Migliore said:

chuxter said:

• I use a flash off the camera. Normally, I don't use the wireless CLS [I'm using Nikon stuff] because it has pre-flashes that cause some people to blink. I use a cable. I hold the flash in my left hand.

Click to expand...

You use a cable? The kind that plug in? Do they still make cables?

Click to expand...

They do, and you can get them shipped from Hong Kong to a US address for $4. I really don't understand how you can ship a cable for $4, let alone produce and sell one!

I recently acquired a Sunpak 622 from KEH, and it came with a five foot PC cord. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet, but I'm really looking forward to it.

paultr said:

Am not qualified to advise as I am at the bottom of the learning curve but why not use more than one flash with the second one a distance away and use radio triggers - maybe that will give more depth. The only problem is that the trigger that support remote control of the second (or third) head are a lot more expensive.

Click to expand...

Not really. You just add a trigger system for about $30, like this one:


Sure, a fully integrated solution is more sleek - such as using Canon's 580EXII head as master and additional 580/430 heads as slaves - but a system I linked above will work as well.

There are also flash heads that will work in optical slave mode - that is, trigger when your flash goes off (just make sure they are pre-flash compatible). But a huge problem with them, if someone else is also shooting with flash, he will trigger your optical slave(s) as well.

paultr said:

The only problem is that you would need an assistant to hold the second flash or risk it going walkabout is it was a distance away from you.

Click to expand...

Well, yes - you need an assistant unless you want to set up the extra flash on some kind of tripod - and risk it being knocked over - and then you have to run to it every time you want to adjust its angle. And unless you want to yell at your assistant throughout the event "To the left! No, to the left facing away from me, not towards me! Angle it up! Not that much! Reduce power two clicks! What do you mean you forgot how to do it?", said assistant should be well trained to understand a system of hand signs.

scorrpio said:

And unless you want to yell at your assistant throughout the event "To the left! No, to the left facing away from me, not towards me! Angle it up! Not that much! Reduce power two clicks! What do you mean you forgot how to do it?", said assistant should be well trained to understand a system of hand signs.

Click to expand...

Or have a cell phone. ;-)

Leonard Migliore said:

chuxter said:

• I use a flash off the camera. Normally, I don't use the wireless CLS [I'm using Nikon stuff] because it has pre-flashes that cause some people to blink. I use a cable. I hold the flash in my left hand.

Click to expand...

You use a cable? The kind that plug in? Do they still make cables?

Click to expand...

LOL. I wondered the same thing! I went down to my local, friendly camera store and asked., Yep. Bought a genuine Nicon SC-28. I checked and B&H has them in stock:

Leonard Migliore said:

Judging by results, more people should use cables. Very good work even though you only have 2 hands.

Click to expand...

Not bragging [too much], but getting the flash off the camera is guaranteed to improve results. It does take some experience, as the position and orientation of the flash must be adjusted for each picture; that is a new variable the photographer has to ponder. You can quickly put the flash on top of the camera [for a photojournalism look], point it up to bounce off a low, white ceiling, point to the side to bounce off a white wall, or do what I do mostly, which is consider where the shadow will fall on background objects and try to minimize them. Often this can't be done w/ flash positioning, but if I'm thinking about it, I can re-position myself or the subject.

Occasionally, I can find an assistant to hold the flash. I was at a Kelby seminar last week and was taking some candids of the instructor [Joel Grimes] as he was answering questions during a break; I had my 24-105 f/4 lens on and was having to use my flash hand to change the FL [can you say awkward?]. A nice stranger walked over and grabbed the flash and held it for me!

BobSC said:

Leonard Migliore said:

chuxter said:

• I use a flash off the camera. Normally, I don't use the wireless CLS [I'm using Nikon stuff] because it has pre-flashes that cause some people to blink. I use a cable. I hold the flash in my left hand.

Click to expand...

You use a cable? The kind that plug in? Do they still make cables?

Click to expand...

They do, and you can get them shipped from Hong Kong to a US address for $4. I really don't understand how you can ship a cable for $4, let alone produce and sell one!

Click to expand...

My opinion is that the $4 price is a clue that you can't expect much. I'm not a Nikon fanboi, but there are some pretty good Chinese products and some awful Chinese products. Get a Phottix TTL Flash Cord for Nikon?


It is half the price of the genuine Nikon part, but looks well built. It's a 9 foot cord.

BobSC said:

I recently acquired a Sunpak 622 from KEH, and it came with a five foot PC cord. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet, but I'm really looking forward to it.

Click to expand...

scorrpio said:

paultr said:

Am not qualified to advise as I am at the bottom of the learning curve but why not use more than one flash with the second one a distance away and use radio triggers - maybe that will give more depth. The only problem is that the trigger that support remote control of the second (or third) head are a lot more expensive.

Click to expand...

Not really. You just add a trigger system for about $30, like this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yongnuo-RF-...751?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d54e08caf

Sure, a fully integrated solution is more sleek - such as using Canon's 580EXII head as master and additional 580/430 heads as slaves - but a system I linked above will work as well.

There are also flash heads that will work in optical slave mode - that is, trigger when your flash goes off (just make sure they are pre-flash compatible). But a huge problem with them, if someone else is also shooting with flash, he will trigger your optical slave(s) as well.

scorrpio said:

The only problem is that you would need an assistant to hold the second flash or risk it going walkabout is it was a distance away from you.

Click to expand...

Well, yes - you need an assistant unless you want to set up the extra flash on some kind of tripod - and risk it being knocked over - and then you have to run to it every time you want to adjust its angle. And unless you want to yell at your assistant throughout the event "To the left! No, to the left facing away from me, not towards me! Angle it up! Not that much! Reduce power two clicks! What do you mean you forgot how to do it?", said assistant should be well trained to understand a system of hand signs.

Click to expand...

2 points:

1. I use hand signals like the Special Forces. Not difficult.
2. If you use TTL, you never have to ask the assistant to adjust power.