Based on recent experience, I would not buy another rebel without MFA. Viewfinder AF VS liveview accuracy with faster lens is more important than I thought. More to have accurate, adjustable AF than more pixels
Greg
Greg
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A new rebel is coming. How will it be better than the last?
Oilman
Senior Member
If the 7D Mk II upgrade is any indication, I think the chance of dual pixel AF in the new Canon Rebel is pretty good. What we saw in the 7D upgrade was a trickle down of 1D features to the 7D as opposed to major changes in the body itself. As video become more important in the DSLR world Dual pixel AF could be an important selling point to differentiate the Rebel from similar DSLR's from Nikon Sony etc.
Of course this is complete and total guesswork on my part (Grin)
Of course this is complete and total guesswork on my part (Grin)
Potemkin_Photo
Senior Member
Focus peaking and great MF through the viewfinder. Once you've experienced, you just don't want to go back.
Oilman
Senior Member
Canon Rumors rates this as CW1 - Probably fake rumor
R2D2
Forum Pro
Hopefully the dual pixel sensor won't be prohibitively expensive, as some have been posting. I'd love to see the new sensor tech in the next Rebel.
Canon's Modus Operandi. Except for the Dual Pixel bit.
Couldn't agree more. After fifteen minutes of shooting with the 70D, I knew I couldn't buy another camera (of any type) that didn't have the dual pixel sensor. I figured Canon would immediately go for the kill and put this technology in all its cameras, mirrorless and P&S included. Can you imagine the marketshare advantage they'd have by now?
Here's hoping,
R2
WilbaW
Forum Pro
Fair enough, not trying to change your mind, but I'm not so pessimistic. Everyone thought the 60D would be useless without AF MA but it turned out to be a fine performer with very few credible reports of trouble. I'm a bit of an AF perfectionist, and with my good lenses (L and recent EF-S) I've never had a problem with it. Something seemed to happen between the 7D and the 60D that make AF a lot more reliable. We saw it when firmware 2 came out for the 7D, and a lot of owners reported needing very little adjustment compared to the first version of the firmware. I get the same sense with from the feedback for the Rebels released since the 60D, so I would be confident that most Rebel owners don't need it, unless they own something like the original 100-400, which has a reputation for needing significant adjustment.
Agree, it seems that some Canon bodies need a lot more MFA than others - which suggests it is more related to the properties of the AF system that is used than to individual variations. Although for the older Rebels I think the main accuracy problem was with the secondary mirror and not so much the AF sensors themselves.
My 450D has inaccurate AF (even worse than my previous 300D), especially with SWA lenses. And the OVF isn't accurate enough either for focusing. So I use Liveview MF whenever possible, although it is a kludge (very slow, difficult to see in bright light etc.). I have similar experience with 550D body, but haven't used the newer Rebels. The AF limitations are probably the main barrier for optimal image quality for my shots, together with the limited DR of the sensor.
I can imagine Canon learned something from the AF woes with earlier Rebel models (although those issues were never officially recognized). MFA can help, but IMHO it is also a bit of a kludge so I would prefer a good (reliable and accurate) PD-AF system or efficient dual-pixel implementation. I didn't switch to xxD/xD series cameras yet because I want a small/light camera, unfortunately MFA has only been available on the 'heavier' gear.
Oilman
Senior Member
This discussion occurs every time every time a new Rebel is introduced. The problem is that the the Rebel is an entry level DSLR. Most people who buy them have no clue about how to operate a DSLR and most will never take the time to fully appreciate a fraction of what their camera can do. Putting MFA on a beginner camera is a recipe for disaster. Tech service would be overwhelmed.
I understand that this stereotype does not apply to you or Technic and that is another issue. You and Technic are NOT a beginners. Canon does not want to sell a another beginner camera to either of you!!! They want to sell you something higher-end.
There will always be an upgrade path and enthusiasts such as yourself can move to an xxD or xD camera. They are heavier, But the lens I use these days on my 5D and 7D are a large portion of the weight of the camera. The most common crop-frame walk-around lens upgrades are the 15-85 mm and the 17-55 mm F2.8. The change from the kit lens to one of these lenses will make the camera heavier than a change to a 70D body. The pro quality mirror-less cameras represent the alternative upgrade path for someone who wants light weight.
I understand that this stereotype does not apply to you or Technic and that is another issue. You and Technic are NOT a beginners. Canon does not want to sell a another beginner camera to either of you!!! They want to sell you something higher-end.
There will always be an upgrade path and enthusiasts such as yourself can move to an xxD or xD camera. They are heavier, But the lens I use these days on my 5D and 7D are a large portion of the weight of the camera. The most common crop-frame walk-around lens upgrades are the 15-85 mm and the 17-55 mm F2.8. The change from the kit lens to one of these lenses will make the camera heavier than a change to a 70D body. The pro quality mirror-less cameras represent the alternative upgrade path for someone who wants light weight.
I could not agree more. I have friends/relatives who own various Rebels. None of them bother learning anything about these cameras. They use the GREEN mode, the original kit lens and are happy with their pictures which are "good enough".
I assume that in 2015 none of these people would buy a Rebel. Maybe a mirrorless camera
First of all, I don't think all Rebels are aimed at absolute beginners, if only because of pretty big price differences. I don't follow all the model numbers, but the 1100/1200D sure is a beginners camera. The higher up Rebel models have far more features and are (in general) less suitable for beginners.
Also, one has to question to what extent beginners will keep buying DSLR camera's - I think the main reason now is low price (compared to a good ILC camera) and 'prestige' (look me with my big Canon, I'm a real pro!). I don't think low end DSLRs will remain a mass market for much longer.
I have no problem buying an expensive camera, I just don't want a heavy/big camera that misses features that I consider very important, like a tilt screen. THAT is the real problem with Canon and although the current lineup is maybe fine for the average buyer, I'm sure there are more users like me who can't really find what they want.
This applies both to the xxD and xD series (e.g. 6D is smaller/lighter than 5D3 or 1D series, but without a tilt screen and limited AF capabilities it has its limitations for me; it is mostly a camera for relatively slow moving subjects and low light shooting).
You are right in general about lenses, but the more experienced users often have several lenses in the same focal length range, e.g. one bright and high quality model for low light or best possible IQ/AF, and one lower end model for travel, family pictures etc.
And regarding the 15-85 'walkaround': yes, it is a bit heavy compared to my 450D and would be a better combo with an xxD series camera regarding balance. However, there is no real alternative to this lens for me, I have used the 18-55IS before and although the latest STM version is really nice, it is very limited in focal length compared to the 15-85. You can travel light with the 18-55IS, but in many situations you are going to need an additional lens which cancels all the gain ...
The current Canon mirrorless cameras are not an alternative IMHO at their present very-non-pro stage. Alternatives like Sony A7 series (with ones existing Canon lenses) can be an upgrade option, but they are not suitable for action and I would not even use them for family pictures because of the AF limitations. So these are 'niche upgrades' that only work for specific applications like landscape, architecture, studio photography.
So I really think there is room for a higher end (more expensive) Rebel, either an extra-compact SL2 or a bit larger but still light-and-compact 750D. If Canon wants to introduce a much smaller and lighter xxD series camera that's fine with me too, but I don't see that happening.
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Unfortunately, spending more and getting a heavier camera does nothing for image quality. So for me there has not been an upgrade path.
I think most reviews treat Rebels as aimed for beginners, however Rebel considers t5 as "Perfect for families, budding photo enthusiasts and first-time SLR users alike". Personally, I doubt many "budding photo enthusiasts" are going to get the new Rebel.
I have never owned Sony cameras, however the latest Sony mirrorless cameras like a6000 have very fast AF and, according to many reviews, perform very well in action. In fact, there have been many discussion in 70D where a6000 was compared with 7d2!
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3780346
It'd be interesting to see what kind of entry-level DLSRs Canon offers in 2015
Does Canon market all Rebels as entry level? I assumed that the Canon T3 (1100D) and Canon T5 (1200D) are entry level; however the other models to me seem to be for more advanced users, people that want to go beyond a P&S camera and also have a reasonable amount of features and control to create nice photos.
I don't consider the t5i a beginner camera. It provides a more compact and lighter alternative to larger, and more expensive models. For many situations its just fine but the lack of mfa is more important to me than 5 more megapixels. Shoot at F8 and af issues are usually no problem but 2.8 it can another situation that can't be easily fixed. I wonder how much mfa costs to add to a camera. Is it more hardware or advanced firmware or both?
Greg
Greg
crashpc
Veteran Member
Big size is no longer mark of being PRO. That way many people are waiting for advanced cameras, but smaller. I´d buy 70D if it was like a6000.
the same claims are made by owners of FZ1000, Samsung NX1 etc. and I simply don't believe them. These ILC camera's may be 'faster' to AF than 7D2 or 1Dx in very specific, easy, conditions but not in general and certainly not in dimmer light or with fast and more erratic action.
Anyway, my point was that a Sony A7 (or A6000) becomes really slow when using Canon lenses. If I wanted Sony lenses it would be another story.
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Agree, but I often see the opposite e.g. with wedding photographers who think they need a bigger camera than the person who hires them ;-)
I can understand that some people want a big brick because they have big hands, because their camera has to take lots of abuse, or because they want to intimidate their subjects ;-) But I'm not like that, small is beautiful!
In the seventies the Olympus OM system was a breath of fresh air and I would love to have something similar in digital form (FF sensor, very small and light, with top quality big and bright viewfinder, only the essential controls and high quality compact lenses). I don't doubt it is possible but just like with cars, it almost seems like DSLRs have to gain weight and tons of useless features with every generation. The SL1 and 6D were a step in the right direction but a bit too much 'dumbed-down' for my taste (dumbed down in things like AF capabilities or lack of a tilt screen). Sony A7 is also a step in the right direction, but they fail to deliver with lenses and the EVF isn't yet a full alternative to OVF.
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Last night I was too tired to research whether all of the Rebels were considered entry level DSLR cameras by Canon. I checked the Canon USA website this morning.
The Canon T5i (700D) camera is mentioned there for "photo enthusiasts" and is called the "flagship of the spectacular Rebel line". The Canon T3i (600D) is noted as a camera "that will help them create their next masterpiece" which "offers the best of EOS photography in a compact package". The Canon T5 (1200D) camera is described as "perfect for families, budding photo enthusiasts and first-time SLR users alike". I think the intent of Canon is to market the Canon T5 (1200D) camera as an entry level DSLR camera but not all of their Rebels just by reading those description alone (without doing any more research).
The Canon T5i (700D) camera is mentioned there for "photo enthusiasts" and is called the "flagship of the spectacular Rebel line". The Canon T3i (600D) is noted as a camera "that will help them create their next masterpiece" which "offers the best of EOS photography in a compact package". The Canon T5 (1200D) camera is described as "perfect for families, budding photo enthusiasts and first-time SLR users alike". I think the intent of Canon is to market the Canon T5 (1200D) camera as an entry level DSLR camera but not all of their Rebels just by reading those description alone (without doing any more research).
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R2D2
Forum Pro
+1
T3 and T5 are obviously targeted toward those who are looking to buy in at the lowest possible price point. Especially considering how Canon has deliberately removed features and has pared down the options/controls to a minimum.
Move on up to the "i" class and you get all this back, and you really find yourself with a very capable camera. Heck, I shot with the T4i exclusively for a year and hardly missed a beat (coming from the 50D).
There are certainly a large number of folks here clamoring for an even more capable offering in this Rebel form factor, and would likely jump on a new Rebel if Canon were to simply add MFA and a deeper RAW buffer (the two things I missed most from the xxD series).
Question is would they also see fit to pay Canon's premium for these features, since Canon heretofore has always reserved them for the yet more capable xxD line, and any narrowing of the performance gap would naturally also mean a commensurate narrowing of the price gap.
Now for those looking for all of the goodies from the xxD line to be accomodated into a form factor nice and small like the current Rebel, well it can't physically be done of course. A larger viewfinder means a physically larger body. More buttons/thumbwheel for increased control would mean a physically larger body. A larger grip/better balance would mean a physically larger body. All of these hallmarks that distinguish an xxD body simply require a physically larger body.
And IMHO Canon will never come out with two different cameras with identical feature sets, differentiated only by size. It's just not their way. Mind you, I'd love to see it personally. But I'm not holding my breath, and I'm certainly not going to forgo all of the benefits of the current technology by waiting for it.
Happy shooting everyone,
R2
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