DPR Canon EOS 7D II Real-World DR?

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

I don't see DRP's example as that stressing on the DR of either camera. A better example would've been to capture the scene while the Sun was still in the frame before it dropped behind the clouds and IMO the end result would've been a more dramatic and interesting rendition. That would've required at least another stop or two less exposure to hold highlights and pulling detail out of the shadows in post would be much more challenging.

Click to expand...

well yes, but it still would look like crap on a stick with both examples.

Click to expand...

A3+ Cibachrome prints from 35mm Velvia transparencies look like crap too even in comparison to my 10D but that doesn't mean they're not usable. In the above case the 7D2 would lay a much larger turd.

It's all relative.

Member said:

with this .. I would love to try that "thumb" technique. take one shot with the sun in the frame, block out the sun and bracket and recombine. IMO that sounds like the best way of dealing with this on an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

Care to show any examples? Maybe we can all learn from your expertise on how to polish a turd into a gem.

Click to expand...

what part of "try" did you not read.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6534640423/behind-the-shot-dalis-dream

Click to expand...

:-D

You link a high DR example using a Sony A7 with a Canon lens? Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

You seem to have the same problem as Karl with being polite and civil. This thread has been pretty good so far until you started to post and immediately the tone changes. Think about that because if not the mod's probably will. ;-)

Bob

rrccad said:

j900 said:

TTMartin said:

The only way that ETTR is hard, is if you can't figure out how to turn on the highlight alert on your camera. In that case you are probably better off not buying an interchangeable lens camera anyway.

Click to expand...

And you're wrong - for that too. Highlight alert is relative to the camera jpegs and does not tell you anything about your RAW exposure, which is what ETTR is all about. That's also a statement made by DPR in their writeup, but at this point I guess we have understood that you comment on what they wrote without actually reading it.

Click to expand...

in this case highlight alert and your histograms give you an approximate basis. usually when I see clipping or alerts I use common sense and dial it back then.

Click to expand...

That's where you'd be making a mistake as there's usually more RAW highlight headroom to work with well after the JPEG shows clipping so you're throwing away significant RAW file capability.

Member said:

it's really not that hard to get at least +1 ev out of your exposure if have a brain attached to your skull. getting more than that, or maximizing your ETTR is harder.

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Again why the attitude? Are you not capable of a civil response?

Bob

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

I don't see DRP's example as that stressing on the DR of either camera. A better example would've been to capture the scene while the Sun was still in the frame before it dropped behind the clouds and IMO the end result would've been a more dramatic and interesting rendition. That would've required at least another stop or two less exposure to hold highlights and pulling detail out of the shadows in post would be much more challenging.

Click to expand...

well yes, but it still would look like crap on a stick with both examples.

Click to expand...

A3+ Cibachrome prints from 35mm Velvia transparencies look like crap too even in comparison to my 10D but that doesn't mean they're not usable. In the above case the 7D2 would lay a much larger turd.

It's all relative.

rwbaron said:

with this .. I would love to try that "thumb" technique. take one shot with the sun in the frame, block out the sun and bracket and recombine. IMO that sounds like the best way of dealing with this on an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

Care to show any examples? Maybe we can all learn from your expertise on how to polish a turd into a gem.

Click to expand...

what part of "try" did you not read.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6534640423/behind-the-shot-dalis-dream

Click to expand...

:-D

You link a high DR example using a Sony A7 with a Canon lens? Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

Click to expand...

does the technique change? don't you think it's ironic that you fixate on that versus the technique? good photographers look at different ways of taking a photo regardless of what camera the other photographer used. or are you just fixated on the gear used?

rwbaron said:

You seem to have the same problem as Karl with being polite and civil. This thread has been pretty good so far until you started to post and immediately the tone changes.

Click to expand...

I have no problems with it - but like I said .. I would love to try the technique. it removes some aspects of flare with these sort of shots regardless of camera.

Again you missed the point.

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

j900 said:

TTMartin said:

The only way that ETTR is hard, is if you can't figure out how to turn on the highlight alert on your camera. In that case you are probably better off not buying an interchangeable lens camera anyway.

Click to expand...

And you're wrong - for that too. Highlight alert is relative to the camera jpegs and does not tell you anything about your RAW exposure, which is what ETTR is all about. That's also a statement made by DPR in their writeup, but at this point I guess we have understood that you comment on what they wrote without actually reading it.

Click to expand...

in this case highlight alert and your histograms give you an approximate basis. usually when I see clipping or alerts I use common sense and dial it back then.

Click to expand...

That's where you'd be making a mistake as there's usually more RAW highlight headroom to work with well after the JPEG shows clipping so you're throwing away significant RAW file capability.

Click to expand...

but that's not what DPR was discussing. DPR was discussing +1 EV ETTR. that's not difficult.

doesn't even really require anyone to think in this day and age. I haven't had to think about +1 EV ETTR since the original 5D.

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

Only a few that go for that DR fetish... But they don't tire to try to denigrate the 7DII for being a tad behind outside it's comfort zone.

Click to expand...

Across the forums the parrots are squawking about Canon's old sensor and its terrible dynamic range and how bad it is. Same goes for the Fuji forums where I think I've read that same comment. Yet - when anyone posts a photo in those Fuji forums they almost universally PP it with the 'Velvia film simulation look', which they all prefer - and which possibly has the lowest dynamic range of any of the choices they can make.

I never knew that pulling detail out of shadows was the huge deal it's being made out to be. A few years ago it was the high ISO noise that was the concern. Well I have no doubt a 7D II can be used for most any purpose and do a very good job, but what it was designed for - action, sports and wildlife shooting - it excels at, along with the high ISO's that kind of shooting sometimes require.

Even if it doesn't have wi-fi. For me that is way, way down on the list. I don't even sync my phone via wi-fil

TTMartin said:

NRBlack said:

TTMartin said:

As usual a contrived situation had to be created to show the 'inadequacy' Canon's dynamic range.

Click to expand...

I would disagree that their sunset landscape is contrived. It is a situation people commonly shoot. To get max tonality of the hot spot, the sun, in the photo exposure needs to be a certain setting, but that means the ground is severely underexposed. An interior shot with a hot window can be another "real world" example at times.

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The contrived part was that they had to intentionally underexpose the shot by one stop (from their ETTR image) in order to get the shadows below the noise floor of the 7D Mk II.

TTMartin said:

The DPR example shows that even the much vaunted Exmor sensor is delivering a crappy result. Even on the Exmor the SNR of those deep blacks pushed into low mid tones sucks. If one is all about IQ then these large pushes are something to be avoided.

Bracketing would give a quality result because you keep the SNR up by collecting a decent/proper amount of light for both the hot spot and the ground.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Then there is the Nikon 'Expeed' processing engine. I don't now about others but every time I see that name it registers in my head like 'My ex peed on my front doorstep after she got drunk one night.'

Really, it is amazing how much melodrama is spent on pulling detail out of shadows when that is only on occasional situation and not one about which the 7D2 was designed.

rrccad said:

j900 said:

TTMartin said:

The only way that ETTR is hard, is if you can't figure out how to turn on the highlight alert on your camera. In that case you are probably better off not buying an interchangeable lens camera anyway.

Click to expand...

And you're wrong - for that too. Highlight alert is relative to the camera jpegs and does not tell you anything about your RAW exposure, which is what ETTR is all about. That's also a statement made by DPR in their writeup, but at this point I guess we have understood that you comment on what they wrote without actually reading it.

Click to expand...

in this case highlight alert and your histograms give you an approximate basis. usually when I see clipping or alerts I use common sense and dial it back then.

it's really not that hard to get at least +1 ev out of your exposure if have a brain attached to your skull. getting more than that, or maximizing your ETTR is harder.

Click to expand...

Evidently ETTR is harder for the DPR staff than we realized. Because their 'ETTR' image was actually one and a third stops under true ETTR.



And their intentional underexposure was actually over two stops underexposed.



Talk about a complete FAIL at showing the 7D Mk II 'real world' dynamic range!

--
All statements in my posts represent my interpretation of data, research opinion or viewpoints.
The opinions expressed are not representations of fact, and are subject to change without notice.
All images are used for educational purposes.

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

I don't see DRP's example as that stressing on the DR of either camera. A better example would've been to capture the scene while the Sun was still in the frame before it dropped behind the clouds and IMO the end result would've been a more dramatic and interesting rendition. That would've required at least another stop or two less exposure to hold highlights and pulling detail out of the shadows in post would be much more challenging.

Click to expand...

well yes, but it still would look like crap on a stick with both examples.

Click to expand...

A3+ Cibachrome prints from 35mm Velvia transparencies look like crap too even in comparison to my 10D but that doesn't mean they're not usable. In the above case the 7D2 would lay a much larger turd.

It's all relative.

rwbaron said:

with this .. I would love to try that "thumb" technique. take one shot with the sun in the frame, block out the sun and bracket and recombine. IMO that sounds like the best way of dealing with this on an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

Care to show any examples? Maybe we can all learn from your expertise on how to polish a turd into a gem.

Click to expand...

what part of "try" did you not read.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6534640423/behind-the-shot-dalis-dream

Click to expand...

:-D

You link a high DR example using a Sony A7 with a Canon lens? Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

Click to expand...

Apropos of that I'm waiting for my adapter to be delivered so I can use my L lenses on my A6000. ;-)

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

I don't see DRP's example as that stressing on the DR of either camera. A better example would've been to capture the scene while the Sun was still in the frame before it dropped behind the clouds and IMO the end result would've been a more dramatic and interesting rendition. That would've required at least another stop or two less exposure to hold highlights and pulling detail out of the shadows in post would be much more challenging.

Click to expand...

well yes, but it still would look like crap on a stick with both examples.

Click to expand...

A3+ Cibachrome prints from 35mm Velvia transparencies look like crap too even in comparison to my 10D but that doesn't mean they're not usable. In the above case the 7D2 would lay a much larger turd.

It's all relative.

Member said:

with this .. I would love to try that "thumb" technique. take one shot with the sun in the frame, block out the sun and bracket and recombine. IMO that sounds like the best way of dealing with this on an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

Care to show any examples? Maybe we can all learn from your expertise on how to polish a turd into a gem.

Click to expand...

what part of "try" did you not read.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6534640423/behind-the-shot-dalis-dream

Click to expand...

:-D

You link a high DR example using a Sony A7 with a Canon lens? Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

Click to expand...

does the technique change? don't you think it's ironic that you fixate on that versus the technique? good photographers look at different ways of taking a photo regardless of what camera the other photographer used. or are you just fixated on the gear used?

Click to expand...

Apparently you missed the most important part so I'll post it for you;

Before looking at the RAW images, let's mention the second important aspect. It's very easy to see that the images are strongly underexposed. The reason is that the specific sensor I used, that of the Sony A7R, has tremendous dynamic range, and holds an amazing amount of detail in the darker pixels. I could therefore expose 'to the left', maintaining good detail in the light areas, and brighten the shadows in post processing without compromising quality and without the use of HDR, which would be difficult to do with the hard contrast in this scene. Let's look at the RAW images.

Yes, they are very dark. But based on my familiarity with the A7R sensor, I knew I'd be able to extract perfect color and detail from the dark areas. Praise Sony!
As for the finger technique, let's see why I had to use it. To do this, I'll have to brighten the RAWs a bit.

Let's look at the RAW files after some changes I made in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR):

It's easily seen that I needed to brighten the shadows quite a bit. I boosted the shadows to the limit, and even brightened the image by almost a stop, but due to the low ISO and the Sony sensor, there's no visible noise even at 100% view. To compensate for the brightening, I lowered the highlights, and to compensate for the flat output of the Sony A7R, I boosted contrast and clarity.

Regardless of the "thumb" technique or not he couldn't have accomplished the final result as he did without a camera with the high DR of the Sony A7R. Even a Canon 6D would have been very problematic if not impossible to work with.

Again, I find it ironic that you would use this as an example of why the Sony Exmor's DR is of limited to no value but the "thumb" technique is?

Member said:

Member said:

You seem to have the same problem as Karl with being polite and civil. This thread has been pretty good so far until you started to post and immediately the tone changes.

Click to expand...

I have no problems with it - but like I said .. I would love to try the technique. it removes some aspects of flare with these sort of shots regardless of camera.

Again you missed the point.

Click to expand...

I got the point perfectly.

Bob

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

I don't see DRP's example as that stressing on the DR of either camera. A better example would've been to capture the scene while the Sun was still in the frame before it dropped behind the clouds and IMO the end result would've been a more dramatic and interesting rendition. That would've required at least another stop or two less exposure to hold highlights and pulling detail out of the shadows in post would be much more challenging.

Click to expand...

well yes, but it still would look like crap on a stick with both examples.

Click to expand...

A3+ Cibachrome prints from 35mm Velvia transparencies look like crap too even in comparison to my 10D but that doesn't mean they're not usable. In the above case the 7D2 would lay a much larger turd.

It's all relative.

rwbaron said:

with this .. I would love to try that "thumb" technique. take one shot with the sun in the frame, block out the sun and bracket and recombine. IMO that sounds like the best way of dealing with this on an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

Care to show any examples? Maybe we can all learn from your expertise on how to polish a turd into a gem.

Click to expand...

what part of "try" did you not read.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6534640423/behind-the-shot-dalis-dream

Click to expand...

:-D

You link a high DR example using a Sony A7 with a Canon lens? Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

Click to expand...

does the technique change? don't you think it's ironic that you fixate on that versus the technique? good photographers look at different ways of taking a photo regardless of what camera the other photographer used. or are you just fixated on the gear used?

Click to expand...

Apparently you missed the most important part so I'll post it for you;

Click to expand...

nope, I was talking about the technique he did with his thumb.

but apparently I see your point, I mean heck you had to switch to another brand because you couldn't think outside the box.

Midwest said:

Karl Gnter Wnsch said:

Only a few that go for that DR fetish... But they don't tire to try to denigrate the 7DII for being a tad behind outside it's comfort zone.

Click to expand...

Across the forums the parrots are squawking about Canon's old sensor and its terrible dynamic range and how bad it is. Same goes for the Fuji forums where I think I've read that same comment. Yet - when anyone posts a photo in those Fuji forums they almost universally PP it with the 'Velvia film simulation look', which they all prefer - and which possibly has the lowest dynamic range of any of the choices they can make.

I never knew that pulling detail out of shadows was the huge deal it's being made out to be. A few years ago it was the high ISO noise that was the concern. Well I have no doubt a 7D II can be used for most any purpose and do a very good job, but what it was designed for - action, sports and wildlife shooting - it excels at, along with the high ISO's that kind of shooting sometimes require.

Even if it doesn't have wi-fi. For me that is way, way down on the list. I don't even sync my phone via wi-fil

Click to expand...

Your comment about the images posted on the Fuji forum is a pretty gross generalization and untrue, and I'm guessing I spend a fair amount more time in the Fuji forums than you. Whether you accept it or not -- properly processed -- you can pull more DR out of a properly processed Fuji image. But, honestly, that's not important to everyone. Finding a camera that superior for every usage is nearly impossible. Use the 7D2 for what it's best at (sports, action, wildlife), and it will beat the pants off most anything out there... certainly my X-T1. The 7D2 is clearly an AF beast. However, if DR is important to you for certain types of photography (landscape comes to mind), then you will have to make some compromises if you want your 7D2 to "do it all."

So, every camera has its weaknesses, and my biggest problem is with people who keep trying to suggest that any one model is best at everything. If pulling detail out of shadows is unimportant to you, then so be it. However, it's been an issue for me in many of the images I captured with my 7D, so whether my needs are typical or not, it was a major consideration in deciding on my next camera. YMMV.

Member said:

but apparently I see your point, I mean heck you had to switch to another brand because you couldn't think outside the box.

Click to expand...

You've just confirmed your status as a troll.

Member said:

but apparently I see your point, I mean heck you had to switch to another brand because you couldn't think outside the box.

Click to expand...

What a cheap shot and totally unjustified. I have to agree... trollish behavior.

rjjr said:

rrccad said:

but apparently I see your point, I mean heck you had to switch to another brand because you couldn't think outside the box.

Click to expand...

You've just confirmed your status as a troll.

Click to expand...

not at all. I was / am curious to actually try that concept about blocking the sun (which the originator still had to do even with a Sony A7R). someone else turned it into a brand conversation.

if you can't think outside the box to see a technique that may be applied to you, regardless of the camera than obviously there's more at fault.

Sorry mate, this DPR image is exactly ETTR, not sure what is your point and who you're trying to convince.

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

rrccad said:

rwbaron said:

I don't see DRP's example as that stressing on the DR of either camera. A better example would've been to capture the scene while the Sun was still in the frame before it dropped behind the clouds and IMO the end result would've been a more dramatic and interesting rendition. That would've required at least another stop or two less exposure to hold highlights and pulling detail out of the shadows in post would be much more challenging.

Click to expand...

well yes, but it still would look like crap on a stick with both examples.

Click to expand...

A3+ Cibachrome prints from 35mm Velvia transparencies look like crap too even in comparison to my 10D but that doesn't mean they're not usable. In the above case the 7D2 would lay a much larger turd.

It's all relative.

Member said:

with this .. I would love to try that "thumb" technique. take one shot with the sun in the frame, block out the sun and bracket and recombine. IMO that sounds like the best way of dealing with this on an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

Care to show any examples? Maybe we can all learn from your expertise on how to polish a turd into a gem.

Click to expand...

what part of "try" did you not read.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6534640423/behind-the-shot-dalis-dream

Click to expand...

:-D

You link a high DR example using a Sony A7 with a Canon lens? Don't you find that just a bit ironic?

Click to expand...

does the technique change? don't you think it's ironic that you fixate on that versus the technique? good photographers look at different ways of taking a photo regardless of what camera the other photographer used. or are you just fixated on the gear used?

Click to expand...

Apparently you missed the most important part so I'll post it for you;

Click to expand...

nope, I was talking about the technique he did with his thumb.

Click to expand...

Bad example then. You shouldn't have used one that clearly contradicts your strong opinions on the subject.

Member said:

but apparently I see your point, I mean heck you had to switch to another brand because you couldn't think outside the box.

Click to expand...

You know what they say about "assume" so please don't :-D

I added another brand because of the following;

Smaller, lighter system for travel and everyday shooting.

Excellent APS C optics to go with that smaller, lighter system.

Intuitve UI

Less noise at all ISO's (extremely clean ISO 200 through 800).

Much greater latitude in processing RAW files due to much lower read noise.

There's always more than just one reason but you believe what makes you feel good. ;-)

Bob

j900 said:

TTMartin said:

rrccad said:

j900 said:

TTMartin said:

The only way that ETTR is hard, is if you can't figure out how to turn on the highlight alert on your camera. In that case you are probably better off not buying an interchangeable lens camera anyway.

Click to expand...

And you're wrong - for that too. Highlight alert is relative to the camera jpegs and does not tell you anything about your RAW exposure, which is what ETTR is all about. That's also a statement made by DPR in their writeup, but at this point I guess we have understood that you comment on what they wrote without actually reading it.

Click to expand...

in this case highlight alert and your histograms give you an approximate basis. usually when I see clipping or alerts I use common sense and dial it back then.

it's really not that hard to get at least +1 ev out of your exposure if have a brain attached to your skull. getting more than that, or maximizing your ETTR is harder.

Click to expand...

Evidently ETTR is harder for the DPR staff than we realized. Because their 'ETTR' image was actually one and a third stops under true ETTR.



And their intentional underexposure was actually over two stops underexposed.



Talk about a complete FAIL at showing the 7D Mk II 'real world' dynamic range!

Click to expand...

Sorry mate, this DPR image is exactly ETTR, not sure what is your point and who you're trying to convince.

Click to expand...

You might want to look at the exposure slider setting in the upper right. Highlight alert is set to ON, and the exposure slider is set at +1.17. The 'ETTR' image is at least one stop from being ETTR.



When the exposure slider is set to +1.33 there is just a sliver of highlight alert in the sun. That is true ETTR.

--
All statements in my posts represent my interpretation of data, research opinion or viewpoints.
The opinions expressed are not representations of fact, and are subject to change without notice.
All images are used for educational purposes.

DPR's Canon ETTR sample is brighter in the shadows then the Nikon ETTR sample and appears to have default NR. Both choices exaggerate noise and banding.

Here's my attempt (minus garish HDR color/saturation). ACR settings: Exp +2; Highlights -100; Shadows +60; Sharpening 35/1.0/50; LNR 15/50; CNR 50/50.


7D mark II Shadow Recovery Test

Is this as good as the D7000? No, it's still not as good. But it's a lot closer...and more honest...then DPR's attempt. DPR should replace their current Canon samples with samples that have decent processing.

When I view the above at D7000 resolution at 50% in PS (16x24" equivalent print size) there's not much difference to write about.

Low ISO DR is the last clear cut difference between anyone because Canon...for whatever reason...will not move their ADCs on chip. So every review site is making a huge deal over this difference. It's a lot more interesting and gets more readers then "new camera...basically same IQ as every other camera...if you want more IQ move to medium format."

But the truth is it's just not that big of a difference until you force it to be through underexposure and/or poor processing. As someone who has used both Canon and Sony sensors: the DR difference can make life easier in post, but it's simply not worth all the press it receives. It also has to be counterbalanced against the fact that the 7D2 shoots so fast you can hand hold a 3 frame bracket...even without IS...with minimal alignment in post and put the single frame shadow detail of any competing sensor to shame.

rrccad said:

rjjr said:

rrccad said:

but apparently I see your point, I mean heck you had to switch to another brand because you couldn't think outside the box.

Click to expand...

You've just confirmed your status as a troll.

Click to expand...

not at all. I was / am curious to actually try that concept about blocking the sun (which the originator still had to do even with a Sony A7R). someone else turned it into a brand conversation.

if you can't think outside the box to see a technique that may be applied to you, regardless of the camera than obviously there's more at fault.

Click to expand...

Still trolling with your snarky comments.

TTMartin said:

You might want to look at the exposure slider setting in the upper right. Highlight alert is set to ON, and the exposure slider is set at +1.17. The 'ETTR' image is at least one stop from being ETTR.

Click to expand...

Not in ACR/Lightroom. Highlight alert appears with the raw file at 0eV. Not sure what Canon DPP is thinking but the hottest spot of the image is definitely at the RAW saturation value, as pointed out by DPR in the writeup that you still haven't read, is I reckon.