Boy did the K-3 put the brakes on the 7DmkII or what?

Midwest wrote:
How does the AF know if the subject is moving,
By measuring the distance the subject traveled from one measurement to the next - Canon AF sensors operate at 30 measurements/sec (7D at 60 measurements/sec in macro range when an USM macro lens is detected).
or if it is the view of the subject that is moving? Or, how does the AF lock onto the subject long enough to attain focus if the view of it is moving practically non stop?
That's not the biggest problem. AF sensors are stopped down severely (due to the beam splitter the effective aperture is f/29 IIRC) and thus expose for almost the full 1/30th of a second - you can easily tell how well contrast edges (which the AF sensor will try to match between two light paths) will be visible at such shutter speeds when a long telephoto lens is being used...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
Thom Hogan responded to me once that IBIS left the AF sensor with an unstabilized 'view'. With its 'view' jittering and twitching all over the place, how can the job of AF and tracking be anything but extremely difficult?
I get the appeal of this idea but I'm not sure it stands up to scrutiny. It's fair to assume that PD AF samples the scene at some rate of "looks" per second, and that some information derived from each look carries forward through time. Does the "jittery IBIS" hypothesis assume that the information that carries forward is about the location of relevant detail along each sensor array? My guess is that each look has to be processed independently to derive the focus error between the detail seen by pairs of arrays (since detail from a moving subject can move across an array from look to look regardless of whether the view is stabilised). The relevant information that needs to be carried forward is the focus error, which is about the distance between detail over two sensor arrays rather than on the location of detail along the arrays.

The one thing that might be credible about the jittery IBIS idea is if a look takes long enough that the "image" seen by an individual array suffers from motion blur, thus smearing the detail. In the absence of evidence that that's the case, that it's significant, and that stabilising the image makes a significant difference, I wouldn't make any conclusions about it.
How does the AF know if the subject is moving, or if it is the view of the subject that is moving?
Yeah, it can't know the difference (unless it has input from a motion sensor), so if there is an effect it would seem to be about motion blur on the AF sensors.
Or, how does the AF lock onto the subject long enough to attain focus if the view of it is moving practically non stop?
By measuring the distance between recognisable patterns in the "images" on a pair of AF sensors, and judging that the distance represents an in-focus image. I don't think the system's ability to do that depends on where the pattern was in the previous look.
With a wide angle lens this would not be much of an issue, I suppose. At longer focal lengths I can see it being very much more of an issue.
Yeah, motion blur is (more-or-less) proportional to focal length.
All else I can tell you is that Thom Hogan said that this is a real consideration, and the Pentax AF performance seems to bear it out.
Pentax don't make optically stabilised lenses, so you can't do a comparison test using their gear to determine its effect... but Canon do! So we should be able to come up with a test that might show it takes longer to confirm focus with IS off.
 
Canon AF sensors operate at 30 measurements/sec
Is there a reference for that? I'd love to have something more definitive that the "estimated 3 to 20Hz" sampling rate I've seen documented.
(7D at 60 measurements/sec in macro range when an USM macro lens is detected).
I knew the 7D doubled the rate in that case, but I wasn't aware that the base rate was published.
AF sensors are stopped down severely (due to the beam splitter the effective aperture is f/29 IIRC)
That's what I've come across.
and thus expose for almost the full 1/30th of a second
So the "exposure" for one look is happening in parallel with the processing of the previous look (interpretation of the array "images" and issuing of revised instructions to the lens)?
 
If camera bodies existed in a vacuum this may be true, but as it stands more people own "The Big Two"'s lenses and flash systems. Pentax doesn't match them in those departments either.
Overly sweeping statement. More likely true is, "it depends what you're looking for". Some people are natural light photographers and don't care about flash. And Pentax has some lenses not offered by the other two. If you're looking for fantastic small prime lenses, Pentax is your boat. And if you subscribe to "they don't make 'em like that any more" (solid metal construction, aperture rings, great focus throw), Pentax offers you a platform that allows you to get full enjoyment from a treasure trove of legacy lenses, optical stabilisation included.
 
rwbaron wrote:
All Canon would need to do is source that 24 MP sensor from Sony
Sorry, I don't want such a piece of garbage - nobody really should, those sensors suck at high ISO (from ISO 800 onwards these sensors are considerably worse than their Canon counterparts) and their supposedly great performance at low ISO is marred by way too much DR - every photo requires extensive processing to yield something usable, processing those is a ***** though, the previously applied processing to reduce noise means that they lack in tonal range in the mid tones...

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
I respectfully disagree.

Canon does very well at higher ISO's and even takes a slight edge but is woefully behind at ISO 100~400 in DR which is where I shoot a lot.

I would prefer that Canon develops their own sensor with low read noise but it's been several years now and we've not seen any hint which may be because they don't have the necessary fab lines.
fab lines (as we see by the 70D) doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in this.

the 70D's QE is remarkably better than any canon crop camera they've developed, it's more DiGiC or the ADC pipeline that is the holdup, and always has been.

not to mention the CR2 file itself.
 
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rwbaron wrote:
All Canon would need to do is source that 24 MP sensor from Sony
Sorry, I don't want such a piece of garbage - nobody really should, those sensors suck at high ISO (from ISO 800 onwards these sensors are considerably worse than their Canon counterparts) and their supposedly great performance at low ISO is marred by way too much DR - every photo requires extensive processing to yield something usable, processing those is a ***** though, the previously applied processing to reduce noise means that they lack in tonal range in the mid tones...
 
the bigger picture is the 70-200 2.8 IS II and 70-200 2.8 VR II are BETTER lenses than sigma/tamron.

Sigma, for example, has quite an issue with focus quality control not present in the Nikon or Canon OEM lenses. I'm sure it has to do with Sigma having to reverse engineer the focus systems.

So, while they're nice alternatives if money saving is a priority they are not up to the standard set by the OEM lenses. Sorry to burst your bubble.
As the owner of a number of Sigma lenses I can tell you, the issue with their 'quality control' has nothing to do with how the lenses are built. It has to do with the degree of calibration that is done before leaving the factory.

Sigma right or wrong chooses not to individually calibrate lenses after manufacturer. Instead, since the majority of lenses don't need calibration they choose to calibrate those lenses that need it after purchase anytime during the 4 year warranty period.

I own 4 Sigma EX lenses the build quality on them is excellent, and of the 4 I only had to send 1 in for calibration.
 
.......Look at Pentax K-3 spec's and price point. Almost every review gives the K-3 top marks on photo quality (raw). Right now, Canon's cropped camera's can't touch the K-3 under $1110.00.
Both the 7D and the 70D are way ahead of the K-3's ability to focus - and what would you rather have, a small, virtually undetectable difference in image quality when the camera nails the AF or a camera that doesn't seem capable of nailing the AF half of the time...
As a Canon owner, underdog Pentax is trouble for the company.
No, they aren't the underdog without reason, they haven't got some basics right - if you don't need tracking AF, fast focusing lenses, stabilized lenses, fast lenses (most of Pentax offerings are so called "limiteds" which means getting one of them is a case of dead man's boots because their production run had been limited to a small number to keep prices sky high)
Every time I look, they're all in stock. Oh wait, now you'll claim it's because nobody's buying them? The level of reasoning in this particular forum is just ridiculous, honestly!
 
the bigger picture is the 70-200 2.8 IS II and 70-200 2.8 VR II are BETTER lenses than sigma/tamron.

Sigma, for example, has quite an issue with focus quality control not present in the Nikon or Canon OEM lenses. I'm sure it has to do with Sigma having to reverse engineer the focus systems.

So, while they're nice alternatives if money saving is a priority they are not up to the standard set by the OEM lenses. Sorry to burst your bubble.
As the owner of a number of Sigma lenses I can tell you, the issue with their 'quality control' has nothing to do with how the lenses are built. It has to do with the degree of calibration that is done before leaving the factory.

Sigma right or wrong chooses not to individually calibrate lenses after manufacturer. Instead, since the majority of lenses don't need calibration they choose to calibrate those lenses that need it after purchase anytime during the 4 year warranty period.

I own 4 Sigma EX lenses the build quality on them is excellent, and of the 4 I only had to send 1 in for calibration.
I've owned sigma 70-200 2.8 and a 120-300 2.8. They're the only lenses I've ever had focus issues with. I replaced the 70-200 2.8 with Canon and there was a good accuracy boost. The 120-300 2.8 uses MA adjust (only lens I have that requires it) on my cameras.

And, while I really like the idea of the 35mm 1.4 because of excellent reviews a search will turn up similar odd focus behavior in Canon (specifically I recall with the 5dIII). I suppose their new dock strategy and MA lens adjust might help relieve the problem. But, I don't have enough data to know for sure. But my own experience and experience of others makes me leery of buying 3rd party high end lenses right now unless there is no OEM alternative. I certainly wouldn't choose a sigma 70-200 2.8 over the Canon OEM versions.
 
the bigger picture is the 70-200 2.8 IS II and 70-200 2.8 VR II are BETTER lenses than sigma/tamron.

Sigma, for example, has quite an issue with focus quality control not present in the Nikon or Canon OEM lenses. I'm sure it has to do with Sigma having to reverse engineer the focus systems.

So, while they're nice alternatives if money saving is a priority they are not up to the standard set by the OEM lenses. Sorry to burst your bubble.
As the owner of a number of Sigma lenses I can tell you, the issue with their 'quality control' has nothing to do with how the lenses are built. It has to do with the degree of calibration that is done before leaving the factory.

Sigma right or wrong chooses not to individually calibrate lenses after manufacturer. Instead, since the majority of lenses don't need calibration they choose to calibrate those lenses that need it after purchase anytime during the 4 year warranty period.

I own 4 Sigma EX lenses the build quality on them is excellent, and of the 4 I only had to send 1 in for calibration.
I've owned sigma 70-200 2.8 and a 120-300 2.8. They're the only lenses I've ever had focus issues with. I replaced the 70-200 2.8 with Canon and there was a good accuracy boost. The 120-300 2.8 uses MA adjust (only lens I have that requires it) on my cameras.

And, while I really like the idea of the 35mm 1.4 because of excellent reviews a search will turn up similar odd focus behavior in Canon (specifically I recall with the 5dIII). I suppose their new dock strategy and MA lens adjust might help relieve the problem. But, I don't have enough data to know for sure. But my own experience and experience of others makes me leery of buying 3rd party high end lenses right now unless there is no OEM alternative. I certainly wouldn't choose a sigma 70-200 2.8 over the Canon OEM versions.
I did!!!

When I purchased my Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 there was no Canon 70-200 f/2.8 IS II. The Sigma 70-200 is sharper across the frame than the Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS at f/2.8 where the lens gets most use.

The focus has always been fast and consistent. It did require micro focus adjustment (MFA) when I purchased it. Before the 4 year warranty expired I sent into Sigma for FREE calibration and it no longer requires MFA and focus is spot on even on my Rebel XTi.

I chose the Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 because it was the best lens available at the time I purchased it. The fact it was about $400 cheaper than the equivalent Canon version was just a bonus.

If I were buying again today I would probably go with the Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS II as that is one of the best lenses available today. But, I don't regret purchasing the Sigma and it impressed me enough to purchase 3 more Sigma zooms.
 
rwbaron wrote:
All Canon would need to do is source that 24 MP sensor from Sony
Sorry, I don't want such a piece of garbage - nobody really should, those sensors suck at high ISO (from ISO 800 onwards these sensors are considerably worse than their Canon counterparts) and their supposedly great performance at low ISO is marred by way too much DR - every photo requires extensive processing to yield something usable, processing those is a ***** though, the previously applied processing to reduce noise means that they lack in tonal range in the mid tones...

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
I respectfully disagree.

Canon does very well at higher ISO's and even takes a slight edge but is woefully behind at ISO 100~400 in DR which is where I shoot a lot.

I would prefer that Canon develops their own sensor with low read noise but it's been several years now and we've not seen any hint which may be because they don't have the necessary fab lines.
fab lines (as we see by the 70D) doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in this.
Do we know for certain the 70D sensor is made on the newest fab line? I read Canon was installing a new finer fab line but I never heard confirmation that it was up and running.
think they could make 2um PD's plus wiring without? that would be nearly impossible.

also the QE of the 70D is 10% higher than that of the 18Mp sensors. this with each PD split in half and more wiring.

canon has had a 180nm fab line for a while - even according to chipworks. chipworks merely stated that they haven't used it for FF sensors.

Keep in mind there has been alot of APS-C / APS-H sensor prototypes with high Mp's over the past 3-5 years .. obviously a different fab line was being experimented and trailed for a while.
the 70D's QE is remarkably better than any canon crop camera they've developed, it's more DiGiC or the ADC pipeline that is the holdup, and always has been.
My understanding is it's the ADC of which the sensor architecture plays a part. The signal stays analog too long but that's only part of the problem as I understand it.
that determines your base noise. canon's patents from way back essentially insure that there is no noise induced at the pixel level at "ground zero" at the PD - however the trace wiring and off sensor circuitry - not to mention ADC error in itself and drift will contribute far more to noise. why canon hasn't addressed this? I'm not sure - it's not that difficult.
not to mention the CR2 file itself.
In what way? Never heard that the CR2 was an issue.
against a NEF - a CR2 will measure statistically twice as much noise - an NEF does a pre-process that equalizes out the black level in the NEF and resets the black level to 0. I believe in latest versions of any sony sensor this process happens earlier on in the pipeline.

any statistical processing of a CR2 must take into account the floating black values (column and row) to accurately to used as a baseline against an nikon or sony RAW for instance - because they already have this process done, while a CR2 expects this to happen in the raw converter.
 
rwbaron wrote:
All Canon would need to do is source that 24 MP sensor from Sony
Sorry, I don't want such a piece of garbage - nobody really should, those sensors suck at high ISO (from ISO 800 onwards these sensors are considerably worse than their Canon counterparts) and their supposedly great performance at low ISO is marred by way too much DR - every photo requires extensive processing to yield something usable, processing those is a ***** though, the previously applied processing to reduce noise means that they lack in tonal range in the mid tones...

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
I respectfully disagree.

Canon does very well at higher ISO's and even takes a slight edge but is woefully behind at ISO 100~400 in DR which is where I shoot a lot.

I would prefer that Canon develops their own sensor with low read noise but it's been several years now and we've not seen any hint which may be because they don't have the necessary fab lines.
fab lines (as we see by the 70D) doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in this.
Do we know for certain the 70D sensor is made on the newest fab line? I read Canon was installing a new finer fab line but I never heard confirmation that it was up and running.
think they could make 2um PD's plus wiring without? that would be nearly impossible.

also the QE of the 70D is 10% higher than that of the 18Mp sensors. this with each PD split in half and more wiring.

canon has had a 180nm fab line for a while - even according to chipworks. chipworks merely stated that they haven't used it for FF sensors.

Keep in mind there has been alot of APS-C / APS-H sensor prototypes with high Mp's over the past 3-5 years .. obviously a different fab line was being experimented and trailed for a while.
Makes sense and if so it seems Canon has used their finer fab capability for the DP concept and doesn't appear to care about low ISO DR.
the 70D's QE is remarkably better than any canon crop camera they've developed, it's more DiGiC or the ADC pipeline that is the holdup, and always has been.
My understanding is it's the ADC of which the sensor architecture plays a part. The signal stays analog too long but that's only part of the problem as I understand it.
that determines your base noise. canon's patents from way back essentially insure that there is no noise induced at the pixel level at "ground zero" at the PD - however the trace wiring and off sensor circuitry - not to mention ADC error in itself and drift will contribute far more to noise. why canon hasn't addressed this? I'm not sure - it's not that difficult.
Again, I've read from so many people that this shouldn't be that difficult to clean up but then the same issue keeps showing up on every new sensor from Canon. Granted, they've done well to minimize the low ISO pattern noise in the newest cameras but the low ISO DR is still short of the competition.
not to mention the CR2 file itself.
In what way? Never heard that the CR2 was an issue.
against a NEF - a CR2 will measure statistically twice as much noise - an NEF does a pre-process that equalizes out the black level in the NEF and resets the black level to 0. I believe in latest versions of any sony sensor this process happens earlier on in the pipeline.

any statistical processing of a CR2 must take into account the floating black values (column and row) to accurately to used as a baseline against an nikon or sony RAW for instance - because they already have this process done, while a CR2 expects this to happen in the raw converter.
Isn't this why people doing astro work still prefer Canon? Do you see this as a disadvantage in DXO measurements?

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
 
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