So what is so wrong about P mode?

I hope we are on the same page--- I was not referring to you. :-)

I think your post speaks for itself and I had no prob's with it-- thus no response on my part. You merely made a observation and wanted to share with others.

Thanks for sharing.

Now back to OT (on topic). I think p-mode has a lot to offer--- I just can't figure out what it is and no post yet has convinced me :-)
The fact of the matter is that he's presenting his side of the
discussion, and I'm presenting mine (where it differs). While I
occasionally will state where/when we agree on a point, it's all
too easy to simply not do that, in the interest of time.

I have a feeling that if I used P-mode, it'd end up just being the
equivalent of Av mode anyway. LOL.
have a problem with insensitivity!!!!!

In any event, to keep this OT--

I don't use P-mode, because it takes the fun out of being a photog.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
--
Troponin (Trop)
I must admit, I gotta problem with typo's
 
Did you take a photo of a person in a black dress with a very white
face?

What a P mode does in this situation? It makes an average and the
black dress becomes a little bit grey, but the face is overexposed.
No, you are wrong. What the camera METER does is make an average. It has NOTHING to do with P mode. Exposure compensation can still be applied, just as easily as in any other non Basic mode.
The human dress is more important than the dress usually. You need
to make a correction in P mode or swithch to M and spot meter the
face.

This is why I work in M usually. Making corrections simply takes to
much time than making just one shot which is correctly exposed.
Then you are working less efficiently than you could be.
I will start using the P mode when the camera will read my mind. I
guess this will take some decades.
Read the manual then, and you might save yourself some decades.

You might even learn something in the process! Hey, now wouldn't that be progress?

Simon
 
There is nothing that can't be
done with P mode that can be done with the others. It just
automates the presentation of an initial setting, and couples the
adjustment. The fact that it is shiftable, and overridable (Ev
comp) make it just as flexible - and in many ways, quicker, than
Av, Ts or M.
Manual mode sure comes in handy when shooting with studio flashes -
or other times when you want to make several identical exposures!
Here P-mode would be ineffecient and slow, especially if you would
have to make adjustments to the cameras suggested exposure on every
frame. P-mode is great and you can get far by shifting and/or
compensating exposure, but there are times when M, Av or Tv is just
more convenient to use. Would you be happy with a D1 featuring
nothing but P-mode? I didn't think so!
Olaf - yes, flash metering, or when in a situation where the EV pair selected is consistently away from what you want (eg in a macro shot where you consistently want a very small aperture) then P mode isn't optimum. Just like there are sitatuations when Av isn't appropriate, or Ts etc.
PS. I am surprised to see a lot of posts in this thread from people
who obviously think that the exposure mode is somehow linked to the
metering mode. Last time I checked these two parameters could be
set individually on just about any EOS-camera. Yes, on a 1D you can
do a spot meter reading in P-mode! (Unfortunately lower level
EOS-cameras, including 10D, don't really feature true spot
metering).
I'm gobsmacked at the lack of knowledge being displayed - like in the example with the wedding dress.

Simon
 
Ideally, you're always evaluating whether you should change Av or
Tv (and/or ISO) when in Av, Tv, or M mode.

I say "ideally" because it doesn't always end up happening that
way. I hate it when I look down and find that I'm shooting at 1/60
on a 100-400 IS (on a monpod) because I've been shooting at ISO 200
and f/8 in the sun (in Av mode) and have now moved into the shade.
Doh!
Ironically, that is where P mode may have saved you :) as it biases shutter speed to the best it can to avoid shake. I think the message is here, that P, Av, Ts and M are all very capable modes, in the hands of someone who understands what they are doing. At different times, each of them may have pros that outweigh the cons of the others. All have cons, all have pros. What I don't agree with, is the ignorant dismission of P mode as a P&S mode, as it is far from that in the hands of someone who understands the concept of shifting and exposure compensation.

It's interesting the number of fallacies that have come out in this thread - like the guy that just responded to me who had convinced himself that P mode would cause his wedding dresses to come out grey. What nonsense. The camera has metered and generated an EV value. The P mode has just taken that EV value and suggested an aperture and shutter speed pair to generate that EV. He would have had the same EV if he'd been in Ts or Av. All would require exposure comp to get the right exposure, not a different mode.

Simon
 
It would've got me part-way there. But it only would've bought me one stop. What I really needed to do was adjust the ISO (which I did, once I noticed).

I'd like a fully programmable "P" mode, that would also adjust ISO, as required.

Somehow, I'd have to give it my "preference curves", so that it would know when I'd want it to open up or raise ISO, etc.
Ironically, that is where P mode may have saved you :) as it
biases shutter speed to the best it can to avoid shake.
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
 
I shoot in 'P' mode about half of the time, especially when conditions change frequently. I shoot in manual when I want to spend more time to create a photograph rather than to shoot a photo.

The 'P' mode is fine on the 10D, and the shift feature gives some creative control. Nothing wrong with that mode at all.

Phil
I want to think about the shot, set my controls and shoot, shoot
and shoot--- Let the creative jucies flow.

Thats why I don't use P- (idiot) mode. Even if I had a few to
many, I still shoot in Av or manual mode--- just to see how good I
am. :-)
I have a 1D, a couple of L zooms and a couple fast short primes
that I bought to help shoot my kids sports. I love it all so far.

However when I am traveling, hiking, or just shooting the family in
the yard kind of stuff, I find myself relying on the P mode.

The family is always moving around, nothing is ever set up or posed.

I will use AE lock or Program shift sometimes for some more control.

The 1D does such a great job at metering that P works great almost
all the time. Compared to the spikey histograms I was almost always
getting with my E-10, the histograms on my 1D images are nice,
smooth curves.

So...What is so bad about shooting in P mode?
--
Troponin (Trop)
I must admit, I gotta problem with typo's
 
Speaking of miscommunication -- lol.

I assumed you were talking mainly about Hyperfish, and not me. And I was trying to "defend" his post, much as I would defend mine. Really, "explain" is probably a better term than "defend".

At any rate, give P-mode a try. You use the small wheel to "shift" the combination of Av/Tv it selects, and you use the big wheel on back to set exposure compensation. You still have full control, really.

It's just always felt ackward to me.
I hope we are on the same page--- I was not referring to you. :-)

I think your post speaks for itself and I had no prob's with it--
thus no response on my part. You merely made a observation and
wanted to share with others.

Thanks for sharing.

Now back to OT (on topic). I think p-mode has a lot to offer--- I
just can't figure out what it is and no post yet has convinced me
:-)
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
 
Did you take a photo of a person in a black dress with a very white
face?

What a P mode does in this situation? It makes an average and the
black dress becomes a little bit grey, but the face is overexposed.
No, you are wrong. What the camera METER does is make an average.
It has NOTHING to do with P mode. Exposure compensation can still
be applied, just as easily as in any other non Basic mode.
OK. It was my mistake. I wrote that faster than I think. It's the ETTL meter which makes the mistake in this situation.

I won't say everyone do this, but usualy I see P mode users who use ETTL meter at the same time. So every time I hear P mode I think of ETTL at the same time.
The human dress is more important than the dress usually. You need
to make a correction in P mode or swithch to M and spot meter the
face.

This is why I work in M usually. Making corrections simply takes to
much time than making just one shot which is correctly exposed.
Then you are working less efficiently than you could be.
Another thing about P and M mode is that in case you have more experience in M mode, you can be more faster and get more proper exposures than someone using P mode and who is a beginner. But if you're good in P mode and you probably do quite good results in P mode too.

I have a good example from the previous year when I was taking photos on a fashion show. The models wore white dress for marriage. I used D60 in M mode, but a friend nearby was a friend who had 1D and used P mode & ETTL. When we compared the photos, my photos were correctly exposed, but the white dress his photos was mostly overexposed.
I will start using the P mode when the camera will read my mind. I
guess this will take some decades.
Read the manual then, and you might save yourself some decades.
You might even learn something in the process! Hey, now wouldn't
that be progress?
You're completely wrong here. It depands of what are you shuting. In case you take photos of flowers, cats,... with a good lighting condition and you're satisfied with the results then you're correct.

But also with flowers a professional photographer wouldn't be satisfied using P mode. Maybe the exposure would be correct, but it's not just the exposure. It's also DOF. In this case you should select Apperuture, which means you need AV mode instead of P mode.

Some more extreme conditions.
  • Go to a valleyball competition and use P mode. What will you get? Just blured photos. Why? Because you need very short times and the camera doesn't know you take photos of the valleyball competition.
  • Go to a dark place with flash. P mode will select 1/60 which is to short. You only get black & white photos. I sometimes use even 2 seconds (but mostly drom 1/15 to 0.5") which gives me much better colors.
  • Lots of other situations,... I really don't have time to write all that.
Using M mode nearly all of the time gives you a practice wich helps you to solve situations where P mode is impossible to use. If you have a lot of practice in that you can be as fast as someone that use P mode.

I have a friend who is an old photographer and who has his old Nikon FM2, F100,... cameras. He never use Auto Focus which I do. I was with him sometimes, when taking some wedding photos and I didn't notice he would be any slower in focusing than me even I used 1D at that occasion.

What I'm trying to say. Use whatever you like and you are more comfortable with, but there are situations where you can't use P mode and you need to be prepared for such situations.
 
Seems that someone if hacking my firewall--- Dpreview keeps shuting down my firewall such that I have to reboot my server... Makes me mad as hell.

In any event, I agree with you abouit P-mode and 1D and 1Ds--- puts the Dxx and 10 in there place--- consumer and barely prosumer. :-)
I wonder why????

Could this be consumer vs. pro?
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
--
Troponin (Trop)
I must admit, I gotta problem with typo's
 
I won't say everyone do this, but usualy I see P mode users who use
ETTL meter at the same time. So every time I hear P mode I think of
ETTL at the same time.
The two aren't linked. The metering and the P mode are separate entities.

If you use the camera for metering, then all the P mode is doing is setting a pair of values that are correct for that metered EV. The camera just sets the aperture and shutter variables - and even then if you aren't happy with the pair it has set then you can shift them. Try it.

What is being metered by the camera is a an EV from the scene. Regardless of any averaging, the camera's metering provides you with an EV value at it's output. Program just set's the shutter and aperture to give that EV. It is up to the photographer to interpret the scene from experience. If necessary exposure compensation can be applied. Whatever creative mode you are in.
The human dress is more important than the dress usually. You need
to make a correction in P mode or swithch to M and spot meter the
face.
So you spot meter the face, (which was overexposed before by your argument, with the dress being grey. So what do you do? You apply a little less exposure to get the face right. That's fine - you can do that in P mode too. The flaw in your logic is that reducing exposure to get her face right, makes the dress even more grey according to the scenario you outlined above :) )
This is why I work in M usually. Making corrections simply takes to
much time than making just one shot which is correctly exposed.
You have to make the same correction whether in M mode or P mode, or in Av or in Ts - it makes no difference. What you are talking about is a lighting/exposure situation in which the camera's metering is being fooled. So you adjust exposure to compensate. Which can be done in P mode.

You seem to have some kind of misconception about what P mode is. In M mode, if you are using the camera's meter, you will go through the following steps - set aperture to give you the dof you want. Set shutter speed to give a matched EV. Find out that it's underexposing the dress etc. Adjust shutter speed (say, up or down accordingly) and take the shot.

In P mode, the camera would set both Ap and Shutter automatically. Evaluate the settings in the VF - like them? ok, no? Shift them. Take the shot. Don't like the exposure? Compensate using the Exp Comp dial. Results are identical
When we compared the photos, my photos were
correctly exposed, but the white dress his photos was mostly
overexposed.
That's a metering issue, not a mode issue.
You're completely wrong here. It depands of what are you shuting.
In case you take photos of flowers, cats,... with a good lighting
condition and you're satisfied with the results then you're correct.
There are circumstances where P mode is not suitable (the same with any of the other modes), but you have completely confused metering, with a program mode. They are separate entitites.

You've even confused metering as an issue - I'd like to hear what steps you would take in M mode to correct the situation where you have an overexposed brides face, and a white dress that is coming out too grey.
But also with flowers a professional photographer wouldn't be
satisfied using P mode. Maybe the exposure would be correct, but
it's not just the exposure. It's also DOF. In this case you should
select Apperuture, which means you need AV mode instead of P mode.
You really don't understand the P mode at all. P mode might suggest f4 at 1/800 say. You know that from experience, you are going to need f8 for that shot. Spin the control dial by your shutter to give you f8 at 1/200. Quick, simple, efficient.
Some more extreme conditions.
  • Go to a valleyball competition and use P mode. What will you get?
Just blured photos. Why? Because you need very short times and the
camera doesn't know you take photos of the valleyball competition.
Of course, the camera can never know what you are taking. It will still meter to give you the best exposure it thinks fit - if it sets the shutter speed slower than you like, shift it. However, if you are having to consistently shift, then you would be better in Ts mode. It's a case of correct mode for the job. In the same way that you might not use Av in that circumstance, then you might not use P.
  • Go to a dark place with flash. P mode will select 1/60 which is
to short. You only get black & white photos. I sometimes use even 2
seconds (but mostly drom 1/15 to 0.5") which gives me much better
colors.
Flash on the Canon system is a special case, so use the more appropriate mode. In this case, Av will do what you want.
Using M mode nearly all of the time gives you a practice wich helps
you to solve situations where P mode is impossible to use.
M mode is the slowest of all the modes to use as it involves setting two variables to match the metered Ev. Av or Ts need one variable set to match the metered Ev, automation taking care of the second. P sets all variables for a metered EV, and allows shifting up or down in Aperture/shutter speed whilst maintaining the correct exposure. If the METERING has got the exposure wrong, Exp Comp can correct it.
there are situations where you can't use P
mode and you need to be prepared for such situations.
Of course, but if one is using the camera's metering (with the exception of flash, as that is a special case), then identical results can be obtained using either Av, Ts or P modes, quicker than in M mode, as fewer variables need to be set. You have no more control in M than you have in Av, Ts, or P.

Simon
 
thanks for the explanation.
I assumed you were talking mainly about Hyperfish, and not me. And
I was trying to "defend" his post, much as I would defend mine.
Really, "explain" is probably a better term than "defend".

At any rate, give P-mode a try. You use the small wheel to
"shift" the combination of Av/Tv it selects, and you use the big
wheel on back to set exposure compensation. You still have full
control, really.

It's just always felt ackward to me.
I hope we are on the same page--- I was not referring to you. :-)

I think your post speaks for itself and I had no prob's with it--
thus no response on my part. You merely made a observation and
wanted to share with others.

Thanks for sharing.

Now back to OT (on topic). I think p-mode has a lot to offer--- I
just can't figure out what it is and no post yet has convinced me
:-)
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
--
Troponin (Trop)
I must admit, I gotta problem with typo's
 
Troponin,

Have you always been this arrogant or have you recently started taking pills?

Frank
In any event, I agree with you abouit P-mode and 1D and 1Ds--- puts
the Dxx and 10 in there place--- consumer and barely prosumer. :-)
I wonder why????

Could this be consumer vs. pro?
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
--
Troponin (Trop)
I must admit, I gotta problem with typo's
--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting that P mode is a replacement for M, AV ro TV. Obviously there are times when P is not appropriate.

The point was in walking around, or sitting at home taking "touris pic's" or snapshots of the famlly P mode is normally fine.

Even somestime when you are walking down a river in a mountain and see a shot and take it - not that you want it to be the end-all of photographs, just a memory - P mode can work fine.

When the creative juices start flowing and you are looking to setup that shot that will get you name listed next to Ansel - then yes, M is probably the way to go - but then Ansel was known to study and plan a shot for weeks sometimes!

Frank
 
It's just that usually I find myself wanting to control aperture,
shutter speed, or both.

Most of the time I'm in Av mode. Less often, M mode. Less often,
Tv mode.

I don't think I've ever used P-mode.

Now, I do use the equivalent of P-mode on my S400.
I have a 1D, a couple of L zooms and a couple fast short primes
that I bought to help shoot my kids sports. I love it all so far.

However when I am traveling, hiking, or just shooting the family in
the yard kind of stuff, I find myself relying on the P mode.

The family is always moving around, nothing is ever set up or posed.

I will use AE lock or Program shift sometimes for some more control.

The 1D does such a great job at metering that P works great almost
all the time. Compared to the spikey histograms I was almost always
getting with my E-10, the histograms on my 1D images are nice,
smooth curves.

So...What is so bad about shooting in P mode?
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Yes, this is ON-TOPIC!
Actually, I don't think you can program shift on your s400...right? With program shift you can doo all you mentioned above....control shutter speed, aperature, or both. Changing ISO is the same with all the modes. I prefer P mode as I only have to make one decision (after alreadyy deciding on ISO) which way to program shift. If I have to take a quick shot and don't have time to set it up or even program shift, it will give me the best chance of getting a decent shot.
Dave

http://www.pbase.com/dgsmithmd
10D, S30
Sigma 15-30
Canon 24-85
Sigma 28, 1.8
Canon 50, 1.8
Canon 85 1.8
Canon 70-200 2.8L
Sigma 50-500
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top