Starter: which system to choose? Aps-c or microfour thirds mirrorless, or..?

Hello,

I am a beginner and in search of a good camera system.

Previously I owned a Panasonic fz28. It got stolen. I want something new and better + will start a photography course. I feel a little overwhelmed by the possibilities. Could someone help me out? I keep on doubting and going back and forth:

--> Compact DSLR, good mirrorless, high end compact or a combination?
--> If mirrorless: APS-C or micro four thirds? Which brand, body and lenses are good+future proof?
--> Spend most on body or lens?

Global budget in euros for camera + 1 lens: 500 is great, 1000-1200 is possible if "needed".

My normal camera use until now:
--> Toddler son (photo + video)
--> Travelling, f.e. nature, people, animals (exotic trips, desert, city trips, no serious birding or so)
--> I love to find special details, light and close-ups of people.
--> I like to enlarge photos and use them as "art" in my house.

Important:
--> Image quality, off course.
--> Light. My Panasonic really really did not satisfy me in low light setting, but also f.e. when trying to capture special light fall or "colour atmosphere" or play of light and dark (don't know how to explain this in english or official photography terms).
--> Speed. I want to be able to grab my camera a shoot a fast and easy photo of my son too.
--> Weight. When possible I am most happy in a simple dress, bare feet, no bag, thus a little scared of huge DSLR plus lenses.
--> Natural use. I don't mind taking time to learn, but I like a good hold, nice buttons and wheels in the right places, maybe touch screen, viewfinder, etc.
--> Macro lens??
--> I have no idea yet how serious I will be.

Some idea of the options in my country (did not remember all the lens names):
- NIKON d7100 + 18-105 VR? (1050 euro)
- Canon d100 + kit..? (500 euro)
- Panasonic GM1 + 14-42mm? (650 euro)
- Panasonic GX7 + 14-42mm? (900 euro)
- Sony NEX6 + kit / kit and zoom (650 euro / 950 euro).
- Samsung NX20 + kit / kit and zoom (450 euro / 700 euro)
- Fuji X-E1 + kit and zoom (1500 euro)
- RX100 (400 euro) or Fuji x100s (800 euro)

Sorry for the long story.... i'd love to get some good and independent advice...because i feel lost!

Thanks!!!

Just to add to the confusion I would suggest you take a look at the new Canon PowerShot G1X mk.2 which is expected in the shops in April.

I recommend this fixed lens camera because it will give you all the controls you need for serious photography in a relatively small package. No digital camera is future safe. Any camera you buy today will probably be worthless compared to newer models i 5 years, but it will still take pictures like it does today - if it does not break.

Using the camera will teach you a lot about your needs. You may find it inadequate, but then you will know what you need. The first camera you buy will almost certainly not be the last, so using a lot of money on features you don't need or quality you can't enjoy is waste.

All the cameras on your list are good and will give you good pictures if you point them at interesting subjects that are well lit. In other words: get a decent camera, learn to use it well and know its limitations. Then, if you feel the need, take a new step from there.

Good luck.

I don't know which country you are in -- it helps to tell us. However, if your price for a Fuji X-E1 is anything to go by you need to come shopping in France.

You can buy a brand new X-E1 with the 18-55mm zoom from Amazon.fr for 617€, including taxes. Even a new X-E2 with the same lens is only 1200€. I don't know about the other makes you list.

Apart from price you need to decide a few things about how you want to shoot.

Do you want a zoom? If so the Fuji X100s, for example, would be out of the running.

Do you want an eye-level viewfinder? If not you could save some money whilst getting exactly the same image quality. For example the Fuji X-A1 is available with two zooms for about the price of an X-E1 with only one. And the X-A1 has some improvements in terms of autofocus and the like.

You need to get your list down to just two or three options before asking advice -- your list covers so much ground that you'll get lots of comments but very little serious comparison between models.

Look at the DPR camera roundups to get an idea of what might suit you, if you haven't already.



Good hunting

The things to balance are Portability and how much zoom you need.

An RX100 is very compact and pocketable. You can pull it out, shoot, put it back. The lens retracts and caps. Easy!

A mirrorless will NOT do this. Ever. Its lens does not retract and it doesnt autocap. The cameras are small, but their lenses arent.

An RX100 is about equivalent to a mirrorless with a prime 28mm and a kit lens all in one. It has good image quality and decent low-light ability.

A mirrorless will be better. 4/3rds has double the sensor size. APS-C is even bigger with triple the sensor size. A Nikon 1 series has the same size sensor.

As the sensor size grows, the ability to ZOOM gets WORSE. Or put another way, you need larger and more expensive lenses to get the same zoom.

A Nikon 1 has a 10-100 lens which is equal to a 27mm to 270mm range. No way you can get that on an APS-C lens. If you could, it would be huuge. So the Nikon 1 is good if you really want to take Bird pictures or something on a budget. You can use a tamron 70-300mm lens with adapter and hit over 800mm equivalent! (which is hitting Super Zoom territory). A micro 4/3rd would hit 600mm which is still very respectable. APS-C hits 450mm with the same lens.

If you want a fixed lens, consider the upcoming G1X too. It looks to be superior to the RX100, stats-wise. Bigger sensor (1.5 inch, similar to 4/3rds), good lens characterics....5x zoom with good aperture throughout. However, it will be LARGER by a big margin. G1x original is quite a beast. They streamlined it some, but it will be big. However, it WILL have a retracting lens so its still way more pocketable (jacket pocket) than any mirrorless.

With an RX-100 or fixed lens, you still have some versatility. You can get a macro lens, from the cheap 20 dollar one (which works great) to the Raynox DCR250 macro lens. You attach stuff via a magnetic filter attachment. Same with circular polarizer, etc.

However, with a fixed lens your ZOOM is stuck. They have telephoto converters but they all suck. You will never get 20x zoom with your RX100. You can use ClearZoom and 5MP to hit 14ish, but with a big loss in quality. It doesnt sound like you are needing a huge zoom though.

Hello.
It's actually very good that you write everything you have in your mind. The problem is, that you need pretty everything which is nearly impossible, and you want it for small money which makes it totally impossible. You'll have to make great compromises anyway but for beginning, I'd start with size and weight decision. The bigger and heavier it is, the more versatility of system, image quality and to some degree for less price you get...

If you want to be prepared, you are about to lug around with some big purse or smaller bag. No any way around if you want to shoot everything and everytime. Here compact cams excell. It can shoot everything and everytime, but it lacks the quality, versatility speed or just something else... The photographer usually refuses this, so he pays different price/penalty. One way is to be prepared to carry huge load of stuff everytime, second way is to prepare yourself to shoot some particular thing in known situation, so you take only gear according to scene to be shot with you, but you fail if the situation changes rapidly. It's deciaion of big balls to carry SOMETHING or great preparation with heart able to handle failure when bad gear setup is done and you can't change it in new situation. I believe in the second way for your case. You maybe miss something, but what you don't miss will be very fine quality. One body and one lens at a time, but maybe more gear waiting at home. For versatility at given price, I'd lead you to get Nikon D3300(with prime lens), and Canon SL1(EOS 100D, with 40mm prime lens) in your hands. This I believe is very first choice to go, cheap, fairly small (on a bigger side), very versatile and very capable machines.

If the size fails you, you pay some price (money, ergonomics, worse handling/controls, a bit less support from narrower lens list and accessories), but you still get the very same image quality with mirrorless cams (if you manage to set it right before good chance for phorography disappears). For lower price there is Canon EOS M, whis is more of compact cam with great sensor for great price, or there is very good line of Sony NEX/Alpha line mirrorless cams. I'd not bother with smaller than APS-C cams, because as soon as you need some zoom, you are going in trouble ANYWAY with adapters and big lenses, and NEX/M is fairly small anyway... Under all this, there is Canon G1X II, and then there are just some cams you have with you... ;-)

-
Why does he do it?

Hi,

Thanks for your advices.

After reading all this, I prefer mirrorless. I will enjoy and use my camera much more if it fits into my normal small bag. I do want zoom, viewfinder and possibly other lenses however. I can't wait for the Canon (thanks for the advice though), my course starts too soon.

After looking around more, I am tempted to go for the Sony A6000 + kit (800 euro).

Some other options I considered were the Nikon V2 (kit + 30-100mm 850 euro), GX7 +kit (900 euro) or Olympus OMD EM5 +kit (1100 euro). I also looked at the Fuji since it's affordable in France (i'm Dutch). Maybe it's just me being clumsy, but I found it harder to take good photos of an impatient 3yr old with the Fuji than with some other cameras.

I find speed and tracking (?) important, since my dearest subject is a very jumpy, explorative toddler boy. I would definitely give up some general image quality and money for that.

Which mirrorless camera is best for this? Or is only a DSRL capable of capturing a running toddler really well?

Thanks!

Marian82 said:

Global budget in euros for camera + 1 lens: 500 is great, 1000-1200 is possible if "needed".

My normal camera use until now:
--> Toddler son (photo + video)
--> Travelling, f.e. nature, people, animals (exotic trips, desert, city trips, no serious birding or so)

Click to expand...

For travel, especially in the desert, I recommend so-called weather-resistant (dust and moisture resistant) camera and lens combinations. Otherwise, with every focusing, dust will be pulled into the lens/camera ruining your equipment.

Reasonable choices within your price range are:

Pentax K-50 + 18-135WR lens, $813 in the US now.

Olympus E-M5+12-50 lens, smaller and lighter, about $850 in the US now.

Single lens choice - Sony RX10, about $1300, maybe somewhat less on sales.

Marian82 said:

--> I love to find special details, light and close-ups of people.
--> I like to enlarge photos and use them as "art" in my house.

Click to expand...

Marian82 said:

Important:
--> Image quality, off course.

Click to expand...

All have very good image quality. RX10 maybe somewhat less on wide end, but better low light on long end (if you like to zoom in), especially compared to Olympus 12-50.

Marian82 said:

--> Light. My Panasonic really really did not satisfy me in low light setting, but also f.e. when trying to capture special light fall or "colour atmosphere" or play of light and dark (don't know how to explain this in english or official photography terms).

Click to expand...

All are fine.

Marian82 said:

--> Speed. I want to be able to grab my camera a shoot a fast and easy photo of my son too.
--> Weight. When possible I am most happy in a simple dress, bare feet, no bag, thus a little scared of huge DSLR plus lenses.

Click to expand...

E-M5 + 12-50 is the lightest of the 3.

Marian82 said:

--> Natural use. I don't mind taking time to learn, but I like a good hold, nice buttons and wheels in the right places, maybe touch screen, viewfinder, etc.

Click to expand...

All are very good.

Marian82 said:

--> Macro lens??

Click to expand...

12-50 lens has hear-macro mode. For real full macro, there is Olympus 60mm f/2.8 macro lens, it is weather-sealed too to match the camera in any conditions. $400 when bought with camera or on sales.

Pentax has 100mm/2.8 WR, $612 on Amazon.

I don't know how good RX10 macro capabilities are, but probably not real macro (1:1).

The Canon SL1/100D was DPReview Gear of the Year and would be a good choice that meets all of your priorities.

Marian82 said:

Marian82 wrote:
Some other options I considered were the Nikon V2 (kit + 30-100mm 850 euro), GX7 +kit (900 euro)

Click to expand...

I don't know if this is an option, but Sam's Club is closing out the Nikon System One S1 for $250 USD, including two lenses. That line of cameras never caught on, and were unrealistically priced when first available.

I had a chance to use one for several days, and was more impressed than I expected to be. The 11-27mm is quite small, but doesn't have VR, unfortunately. I was impressed by the 30-100mm with VR (2.7 crop factor).

Follow focus of moving objects, like an active toddler, seemed to work well. I think the sensor is made by Sony. If anything, its low light capability should be better than the Sony RX100, as its 1" sensor is 10mpx rather than 20mpx.

l_d_allan said:

l_d_allan said:

Marian82 wrote:
Some other options I considered were the Nikon V2 (kit + 30-100mm 850 euro), GX7 +kit (900 euro)

Click to expand...

I don't know if this is an option, but Sam's Club is closing out the Nikon System One S1 for $250 USD, including two lenses. That line of cameras never caught on, and were unrealistically priced when first available.

I had a chance to use one for several days, and was more impressed than I expected to be. The 11-27mm is quite small, but doesn't have VR, unfortunately. I was impressed by the 30-100mm with VR (2.7 crop factor).

Follow focus of moving objects, like an active toddler, seemed to work well. I think the sensor is made by Sony. If anything, its low light capability should be better than the Sony RX100, as its 1" sensor is 10mpx rather than 20mpx.

Click to expand...

The sensors for all the Nikon 1 models are made by Aptina. The lower resolution does not lead to improved low light performance, alas. The Aptina sensors have some interesting properties, but the Sony sensors have less noise/more dynamic range. In practice, 10mp is enough for most purposes, though the 20mp of the RX100 do give you more potential for cropping. What the Nikon 1 models do surpassingly well is focus quickly in good light. They have pdaf focus capability on the sensor and it works great. But only in strong light, where they can even track fast moving objects and fire off rapid bursts. The S1 and the J1-3 are also unusual in only having electronic shutters. They work quite well and you can shoot in silence. The only disadvantage is a poor flash sync speed.

At that price that camera is a nice bargain. The 11-27 is an OK lens, optically better than the other standard zoom, a 10-30mm, though that one has stabilization. The 30-110 is a wonderful lens in every way. And still quite compact. The other Nikon 1 lenses are also generally quite good and most are very reasonably priced for what they are. The S1 is a simple model designed for casual photographers, not enthusiasts, who will find its limited controls a problem.

Olympus OMD EM5 is very good choice, I´d recommend it, but you loose fast and accurate AF tracking. It´s the only thing not good on Oly (most of mirrorless cams), but it can be fatal for animals shooting and of course for shooting children.

I did my decisions many times, and it becomes pretty easy now - you want to accomplish your goals, or you just don´t. If you do, you pay the price. I "threw" my DSLR away years ago, because it was too much price for it (I thought), but I still wanted to have those results. Guess what? I have DSLR again. The pain of luging with that thing is great, but the reward is twice as big. So with another set of shortcomings, I´d still push you to go DSLR with some good set of lenses.

For Canon EF 40mm STM for small size, something stabilized (second hand 18-55 f/2,8 IS USM), and accordingly for Nikon...

Marian82 said:

Hello,

I am a beginner and in search of a good camera system.

Previously I owned a Panasonic fz28. It got stolen. I want something new and better + will start a photography course. I feel a little overwhelmed by the possibilities. Could someone help me out? I keep on doubting and going back and forth:

Click to expand...

Your problem is that all these cameras are good.

Marian82 said:

--> Compact DSLR, good mirrorless, high end compact or a combination?
--> If mirrorless: APS-C or micro four thirds? Which brand, body and lenses are good+future proof?
--> Spend most on body or lens?

Click to expand...

Lenses, not lens.

Marian82 said:

Some idea of the options in my country (did not remember all the lens names):
- NIKON d7100 + 18-105 VR? (1050 euro)
- Canon d100 + kit..? (500 euro)
- Panasonic GM1 + 14-42mm? (650 euro)
- Panasonic GX7 + 14-42mm? (900 euro)
- Sony NEX6 + kit / kit and zoom (650 euro / 950 euro).

Click to expand...

The new A6000 replaces the NEX-6 and is claimed to have much faster focussing (suitable for toddlers).

Marian82 said:

- Samsung NX20 + kit / kit and zoom (450 euro / 700 euro)
- Fuji X-E1 + kit and zoom (1500 euro)
- RX100 (400 euro) or Fuji x100s (800 euro)

Sorry for the long story.... i'd love to get some good and independent advice...because i feel lost!

Thanks!!!

Click to expand...

Marian82 said:

Hi,

Thanks for your advices.

After reading all this, I prefer mirrorless. I will enjoy and use my camera much more if it fits into my normal small bag. I do want zoom, viewfinder and possibly other lenses however. I can't wait for the Canon (thanks for the advice though), my course starts too soon.

After looking around more, I am tempted to go for the Sony A6000 + kit (800 euro).

Click to expand...

Very good choice, its what i was going to recommend. I had a NEX 6 and it was amazing and the A6000 is better in every way.

Marian82 said:

Some other options I considered were the Nikon V2 (kit + 30-100mm 850 euro)

Click to expand...

No. Terrible iso and image quality my sister has one and is very disappointed in it. Same for Canon.

Marian82 said:

, GX7 +kit (900 euro)

Click to expand...

Good camera (great video). Good lens lineup (shares mount with olympus below)

Plus it LOOKS damn good imo

Marian82 said:

or Olympus OMD EM5 +kit (1100 euro)

Click to expand...

Pretty good but not better than the A6000 in any way not sure why its still that price.... it should be at the same price as the A6000. so for now i have to say its OVERPRICED. However great lens lineup.

Marian82 said:

. I also looked at the Fuji since it's affordable in France (i'm Dutch)

Click to expand...

Fuji is a great option but expensive. The X-e2 and X-t1 are the only options id recommend from Fuji for children due to MUCH improved autofocus. I simply LOVE the images fuji produces. If money was no object id say go for the X-T1 kit at 1600$.

Marian82 said:

. Maybe it's just me being clumsy, but I found it harder to take good photos of an impatient 3yr old with the Fuji than with some other cameras.

I find speed and tracking (?) important, since my dearest subject is a very jumpy, explorative toddler boy. I would definitely give up some general image quality and money for that.

Click to expand...

If you want speed and tracking is important get the A6000.

Marian82 said:

Which mirrorless camera is best for this? Or is only a DSRL capable of capturing a running toddler really well?

Click to expand...

A6000 or Olympus OMD EM1 or fuji X-T1. The latter 2 are around 1500$ kits the sony is 800$ kit.

A DSLR would be better but to get that kind of action on a consistent basis you'd still need to spend around 1000 for a DSLR that can do that without disappointing. Canon T5i, 70D or Nikon D5300 kit or D7100 kit. And they are pretty large i would lie its not pleasant carrying them around for extended periods of time. However, they are ALL excellent cameras if you don't mind the bulk.

Stay AWAY from Canon and Nikon Mirrorless, trust me. A lot of Nikon or Canon DSLR owners on this forum also only buy Canon or Nikon products in mirrorless simply to brand loyalty but the truth is that they inferior products to Sony, Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji and EVEN Samsung... Iv tested them all including Nikon and Canon... Id say Fuji is my favorite but costs a lot.

If you want a DSLR however go with Nikon or Canon only.

Marian82 said:

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I never thought that 18-200 mm was huge.

Marian82 said:

Hello,

I am a beginner and in search of a good camera system.

Previously I owned a Panasonic fz28. It got stolen. I want something new and better + will start a photography course. I feel a little overwhelmed by the possibilities. Could someone help me out? I keep on doubting and going back and forth:

--> Compact DSLR, good mirrorless, high end compact or a combination?
--> If mirrorless: APS-C or micro four thirds? Which brand, body and lenses are good+future proof?
--> Spend most on body or lens?

Global budget in euros for camera + 1 lens: 500 is great, 1000-1200 is possible if "needed".

My normal camera use until now:
--> Toddler son (photo + video)
--> Travelling, f.e. nature, people, animals (exotic trips, desert, city trips, no serious birding or so)
--> I love to find special details, light and close-ups of people.
--> I like to enlarge photos and use them as "art" in my house.

Important:
--> Image quality, off course.
--> Light. My Panasonic really really did not satisfy me in low light setting, but also f.e. when trying to capture special light fall or "colour atmosphere" or play of light and dark (don't know how to explain this in english or official photography terms).
--> Speed. I want to be able to grab my camera a shoot a fast and easy photo of my son too.
--> Weight. When possible I am most happy in a simple dress, bare feet, no bag, thus a little scared of huge DSLR plus lenses.
--> Natural use. I don't mind taking time to learn, but I like a good hold, nice buttons and wheels in the right places, maybe touch screen, viewfinder, etc.
--> Macro lens??
--> I have no idea yet how serious I will be.

Some idea of the options in my country (did not remember all the lens names):
- NIKON d7100 + 18-105 VR? (1050 euro)
- Canon d100 + kit..? (500 euro)
- Panasonic GM1 + 14-42mm? (650 euro)
- Panasonic GX7 + 14-42mm? (900 euro)
- Sony NEX6 + kit / kit and zoom (650 euro / 950 euro).
- Samsung NX20 + kit / kit and zoom (450 euro / 700 euro)
- Fuji X-E1 + kit and zoom (1500 euro)
- RX100 (400 euro) or Fuji x100s (800 euro)

Sorry for the long story.... i'd love to get some good and independent advice...because i feel lost!

Thanks!!!

Click to expand...

Either go m43 to achieve most your goals listed and you'll be very
happy.

Or

If you really value "future proof", you will find no greater comfort than with Canon or nikon.

Oh and take sony off your list...yuk

Hi all,

Thanks for all your opinions! After going back and forth and reading all opinions I decided to just give it a try with the Nikon d3300 + 18-55VRii. I had the opportunity to try it and return if not happy. A6000 is not yet available (here) until april.

So.. my first impression.

I have only tried it for a bit to shoot indoor photos of my son, not went outside to really try to take a decent photo. I want to learn more and invest time but taking a fast jpeg of my son that looks good enough and can be printed will still Always be important.

Funny enough,

- I am very HAPPY with the size and handling. It fits my handbag and my hands well. I wouldn't want it much smaller (gm1) or much bigger (bigger dslr). I think I'd prefer the Fuji wheels-for-everything, but I'm okay with this. I like the way it fits my hands. This is without zoomlens.

- I am very UNHAPPY with the speed. I am used to p&s and liveview. Lv is extremely slow, i found it very difficult to focus and to shoot photos of my son. It took forever to process. My son was doing something completely different by the time it was finished with one photo. Is this me or the camera or both? I am not used to the viewfinder...I find myself a bit scared of it ;-)

- I hate to admit it, but I miss the touchscreen. I tried a mirrorless of a friend (Pan GF6) and the touchscreen was nice for fast and easy focussing and shooting.

- Can't judge IQ yet. I don't have the skills and I've only shot in jpeg (don't have the software on this pc yet). It's definitely better especially in low light than my previous camera. I'd like to get even better IQ, as I've been staring at photos of professional photographers shooting with full frame cameras and toplenses for the last few weeks. D3300 in my hands with this lens is.... different. Guess I have to practice a lot.

- I'd like a zoom and a prime (for this cam 35mm f/1.8?) eventually.

So... what do you think....

- Keep?
-Try out some more things with this camera: ... ? (I am allowed to shoot some photos but not to take it out for extensive use and than return)?
- Return and get myself a fast and easy mirrorless or p&s?

Thanks again!!

BTW: what's wrong with sony?