What happened to Canon sensor development?

My opinion is that resolution is the most important component of image quality. It wasn't my opinion until I did an experiment which suggested that it was indeed the case.
What kind of photography do you specialize in, Bob? Your gallery here is just a bunch of screen shots and pixel-peeping experiments.
I don't keep my photography in the DPR galleries, for various reasons. All I put there is images that are to be posted in threads. I do mostly studio and landscape stuff. I wouldn't go as far as to say I 'specialise' in anything.
--
Bob
 
The yen is worth more verse the USD right now; the camera market seems to almost fix an exchange rate at the time of release.

I wonder if the price went up in Yen as well?

I say this because the cost of lenses is more than 5 years ago for the same lenses.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/
 
My opinion is that resolution is the most important component of image quality. It wasn't my opinion until I did an experiment which suggested that it was indeed the case.
What kind of photography do you specialize in, Bob? Your gallery here is just a bunch of screen shots and pixel-peeping experiments.
I don't keep my photography in the DPR galleries, for various reasons. All I put there is images that are to be posted in threads. I do mostly studio and landscape stuff. I wouldn't go as far as to say I 'specialise' in anything.
That makes it impossible to qualify your opinions. Resolution may be the "most important component of image quality" in whatever it is that you do with you camera but for many people it's not. I have thousands of excellent four megapixel 1D shots that look better than hundreds of images I've taken with my 5D despite having three times more pixels. I also have 5D shots that look better than my old 1D shots. Some of my three megapixel D30 shots are cleaner than any other camera I've ever used. Resolution doesn't seem to be a factor.

I'd put accurate color at the top. The original 1D could not reproduce certain shades of purple. Whenever I saw that a team's purple uniforms were dark blue in my shots, I knew I had a lot of post processing ahead of me. Fortunately subsequent Canon cameras did not have this problem. Artifacts are second for me. The color moire of the original 1D due to its weak AA filter completely ruined some of my shots as did the original 5D to a lesser degree. Noise is third because sparkly colors on skin tones in shadows is impossible not to notice, but at least it's usually correctable.

Resolution might be fourth but I can't think of any case where lack of resolution has ruined any of my shots. Back in the single-digit megapixel days we'd use a plug-in called "Genuine Fractals" to make incredibly large prints.

Why would you choose to have a high resolution image full of inaccurate colors, aliasing artifacts, and noise?
 
rwbaron wrote:

In this case, people were bandying around the term 'image quality', so all I did was show people images and ask them to rank them against 'image quality' and some other qualities. The you look for correlation between the qualities, and you would expect if there is a high correlation then the two qualities are strongly related.
Were these images identical in every way except for the resolution of the capture device? If not how could this be a valid test?
Really it doesn't matter what the images are, or what are their qualities, as long as they have a spread of them.
I'm not a scientist by any stretch but this doesn't sound like it was properly controlled.

Bob
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http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
 
My opinion is that resolution is the most important component of image quality. It wasn't my opinion until I did an experiment which suggested that it was indeed the case.
What kind of photography do you specialize in, Bob? Your gallery here is just a bunch of screen shots and pixel-peeping experiments.
I don't keep my photography in the DPR galleries, for various reasons. All I put there is images that are to be posted in threads. I do mostly studio and landscape stuff. I wouldn't go as far as to say I 'specialise' in anything.
That makes it impossible to qualify your opinions.
Here's a context for my forthcoming opinions:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=39537128
Resolution may be the "most important component of image quality" in whatever it is that you do with you camera but for many people it's not. I have thousands of excellent four megapixel 1D shots that look better than hundreds of images I've taken with my 5D despite having three times more pixels. I also have 5D shots that look better than my old 1D shots. Some of my three megapixel D30 shots are cleaner than any other camera I've ever used. Resolution doesn't seem to be a factor.
I'd like to see one of those D30 "shots [that] are clearner than any camera [you've] used".
I'd put accurate color at the top. The original 1D could not reproduce certain shades of purple. Whenever I saw that a team's purple uniforms were dark blue in my shots, I knew I had a lot of post processing ahead of me. Fortunately subsequent Canon cameras did not have this problem. Artifacts are second for me. The color moire of the original 1D due to its weak AA filter completely ruined some of my shots as did the original 5D to a lesser degree. Noise is third because sparkly colors on skin tones in shadows is impossible not to notice, but at least it's usually correctable.

Resolution might be fourth but I can't think of any case where lack of resolution has ruined any of my shots. Back in the single-digit megapixel days we'd use a plug-in called "Genuine Fractals" to make incredibly large prints.
So you found that the false detail added by upsampling software took care of any resolution deficiences?
Why would you choose to have a high resolution image full of inaccurate colors, aliasing artifacts, and noise?
Is that the choice? 'Cause from where I sit, high resolution systems don't seem to have those issues, at least, not as a function of resolution. That is, if there's a problem with "inaccurate colors, aliasing artifacts, and noise" then it is completely unrelated to the resolution.
 
I don't think your separation into 'technical IQ' and 'artistic IQ' is useful at all. 'IQ' as people use it is not useful, because it is completely subjective and undefined, yet people want to use it as though it is an objective, quantitative thing. Surely, there are many images which don't depend for their impact on image quality, and even some which depend on image qualities which would normally be considered poor, such as flare or even, sometimes, noise.
Or it could be the 'wrong' (or rather lack of) colors in a b&w image, and how about shallow DoF, which seriously decreases the total amount of detail. And maybe optical flaws like vignetting and soft corners also sometimes can increase the 'artistic quality' of an image.
A photo is simply information, and how that information is presented in the photo often has a tremendous amount to do with the effect it will have. In other words, the goal isn't to present as much information as you can, but to have as much information as possible to begin with to increase your options with presentation.

So, yes, we can take all the information related to color out of a photo to enhance its impact, but that does not mean that we would want to begin with a grayscale capture, unless we knew in advance that we wanted a BW photo and a grayscale sensor increased other elements of IQ (e.g. resolution, noise, etc.).
I suppose what you're saying is that a 'quality image' does not always depend on 'image quality', and I would not disagree with that.
Those sound like the words of a remarkably intelligent fellow, who, I imagine, is ridiculously good looking as well. ;)
 
My opinion is that resolution is the most important component of image quality. It wasn't my opinion until I did an experiment which suggested that it was indeed the case.
What kind of photography do you specialize in, Bob? Your gallery here is just a bunch of screen shots and pixel-peeping experiments.
I don't keep my photography in the DPR galleries, for various reasons. All I put there is images that are to be posted in threads. I do mostly studio and landscape stuff. I wouldn't go as far as to say I 'specialise' in anything.
That makes it impossible to qualify your opinions.
There is absolutely no logic to that statement at all.
Resolution may be the "most important component of image quality" in whatever it is that you do with you camera but for many people it's not.
You haven't been following, have you? My experiment had nothing to ro with my opinions, it was to do with what was other people's opinions of what constituted image quality. Prior to conducting the experiment, i would have said that 'IQ' was orthogonal to 'resolution', after conducting it, and realising that when people judged the 'IQ'of images, the biggest influence was the resolution (as they perceived it) I changed my opinion. My opinion is not based on my own work at all.

and all the rest of what you write about your personal view of what is 'image quality' is irrelevant.
I have thousands of excellent four megapixel 1D shots that look better than hundreds of images I've taken with my 5D despite having three times more pixels. I also have 5D shots that look better than my old 1D shots. Some of my three megapixel D30 shots are cleaner than any other camera I've ever used. Resolution doesn't seem to be a factor.

I'd put accurate color at the top. The original 1D could not reproduce certain shades of purple. Whenever I saw that a team's purple uniforms were dark blue in my shots, I knew I had a lot of post processing ahead of me. Fortunately subsequent Canon cameras did not have this problem. Artifacts are second for me. The color moire of the original 1D due to its weak AA filter completely ruined some of my shots as did the original 5D to a lesser degree. Noise is third because sparkly colors on skin tones in shadows is impossible not to notice, but at least it's usually correctable.

Resolution might be fourth but I can't think of any case where lack of resolution has ruined any of my shots. Back in the single-digit megapixel days we'd use a plug-in called "Genuine Fractals" to make incredibly large prints.

Why would you choose to have a high resolution image full of inaccurate colors, aliasing artifacts, and noise?
--
Bob
 
rwbaron wrote:

In this case, people were bandying around the term 'image quality', so all I did was show people images and ask them to rank them against 'image quality' and some other qualities. The you look for correlation between the qualities, and you would expect if there is a high correlation then the two qualities are strongly related.
Were these images identical in every way except for the resolution of the capture device? If not how could this be a valid test?
Why would they need to be identical apart from resolution (or any other parameter)? This is not an experiment. It was not the images being tested, it was people's reactions to them, and how those reactions correlated. Basically it is an experiment looking for a degree of synonymity.
Really it doesn't matter what the images are, or what are their qualities, as long as they have a spread of them.
I'm not a scientist by any stretch but this doesn't sound like it was properly controlled.
Yes, you are not a scientist by any stretch. It wasn't a fully rigorous psychological test by any means, but you are looking in the wrong place for 'controls'. What you are saying, I suspect is that your opinion differs from the generalised opinion that the experiment elicited. We'll that is OK, opinions differ, but if people use different meanings for the same term, in the end, communication is impossible.

--
Bob
 
I don't think your separation into 'technical IQ' and 'artistic IQ' is useful at all. 'IQ' as people use it is not useful, because it is completely subjective and undefined, yet people want to use it as though it is an objective, quantitative thing. Surely, there are many images which don't depend for their impact on image quality, and even some which depend on image qualities which would normally be considered poor, such as flare or even, sometimes, noise.
Or it could be the 'wrong' (or rather lack of) colors in a b&w image, and how about shallow DoF, which seriously decreases the total amount of detail. And maybe optical flaws like vignetting and soft corners also sometimes can increase the 'artistic quality' of an image.
A photo is simply information, and how that information is presented in the photo often has a tremendous amount to do with the effect it will have. In other words, the goal isn't to present as much information as you can, but to have as much information as possible to begin with to increase your options with presentation.

So, yes, we can take all the information related to color out of a photo to enhance its impact, but that does not mean that we would want to begin with a grayscale capture, unless we knew in advance that we wanted a BW photo and a grayscale sensor increased other elements of IQ (e.g. resolution, noise, etc.).
Agree that more options is a good thing (would be nice if we also could adjust DoF afterwards), but nevertheless some choose to start out with a B&W (LF) image with rather low technical IQ :

http://sallymann.com/family-pictures
I suppose what you're saying is that a 'quality image' does not always depend on 'image quality', and I would not disagree with that.
Those sound like the words of a remarkably intelligent fellow, who, I imagine, is ridiculously good looking as well. ;)
 
Blah blah blah. Do you even own a camera? The crap that gets posted on this site gets really very old.
 
Sensor development got side tracked by general corporate apathy and resting on their Laurels from the boat load of 5D2's they sold. Canon has got to step up their game a couple notches and deliver another truely revolutionary product to maintain their status at the top. http://m.engadget.com/default/article.do?artUrl=http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/24/canon-proudly-intros-120-megapixel-cmos-sensor-probably-wont-h/&category=classic&postPage=1
Canon apologist would say the 5DIII sensor is not a bad one and an improvement over the previous gen but I don’t see it that way. Yes it’s not a bad one if the world has been standing still but the technology landscape is very different now. One more MP and perhaps slightly better noise with no improvement in DR for three and half years while the rest of the world has been progressing in leaps and bounds just put them in such a bad position.

Three and half years ago Canon’s 21MP sensor had absolutely no peer. Few short years later everyone from phone camera to dslr sensor makers are able to develop much better sensors except for Canon. iPhone at that time had a noisy measly 2MP sensor. It now has an 8MP sensor that is able to take very nice pictures even in relatively low lights. Nokia’s 41MP sensor with varies crop and down sampling modes produces great low noise still and full HD video images. It even beats the 5DIII sensor in video over-sampling amount. Not to be lost here is those are sensors come with phones which cost just a small fraction of the high end dslr and can also make phone calls or surf the web.

On the higher end front Sony have the nice 36MP full frame sensor they made for Nikon camera and perhaps their own later. Even their aps-c sensor has more MP than Canon’s full frame sensor with IQ not far behind, or even exceeds it in certain areas. Fuji’s innovative aps-c sensor in X Pro 1 was said to be as good or better than most full frame dslr sensor for high or low ISO IQ. Imagine what if Canon have technologies similar to what Sony, Fuji and those phone sensor makers have to put into the latest camera? Is Canon supposed to be the leader or we are expecting too much?
 
I don't think your separation into 'technical IQ' and 'artistic IQ' is useful at all. 'IQ' as people use it is not useful, because it is completely subjective and undefined, yet people want to use it as though it is an objective, quantitative thing. Surely, there are many images which don't depend for their impact on image quality, and even some which depend on image qualities which would normally be considered poor, such as flare or even, sometimes, noise.
Or it could be the 'wrong' (or rather lack of) colors in a b&w image, and how about shallow DoF, which seriously decreases the total amount of detail. And maybe optical flaws like vignetting and soft corners also sometimes can increase the 'artistic quality' of an image.
A photo is simply information, and how that information is presented in the photo often has a tremendous amount to do with the effect it will have. In other words, the goal isn't to present as much information as you can, but to have as much information as possible to begin with to increase your options with presentation.

So, yes, we can take all the information related to color out of a photo to enhance its impact, but that does not mean that we would want to begin with a grayscale capture, unless we knew in advance that we wanted a BW photo and a grayscale sensor increased other elements of IQ (e.g. resolution, noise, etc.).
Agree that more options is a good thing (would be nice if we also could adjust DoF afterwards), but nevertheless some choose to start out with a B&W (LF) image with rather low technical IQ :

http://sallymann.com/family-pictures
She's quite the photographer, is she not? However, I'm thinking the "technical IQ" is not necessarily so low. The tonality of the prints is likely remarkable.

But, yes -- no color, motion blur, OOF -- in short, a whole glut of technical "flaws" yet her photos make the grade and then some.

Would her photos have been better without the technical "flaws"? I can't really say, but probably not. I have a few such photos myself, which I think are succesful not because of their technical flaws, but in spite of them:

http://www.pbase.com/joemama/iqirrelevantphotos

However, it may well be that some, or all, are successful because of the technical flaws instead of in spite of them.

An example I love to point to is this one:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=39831113

where we have two pics of the same scene, one with much lower IQ than the other. Yet, the high IQ is not "better than" the low IQ pic, it's simply different.

The thing is, though, that the photographer had the option for either and/or both with equipment that can deliver high IQ.

So, while a photographer can certainly make a career of stunning low IQ photos (as you demonstrated), it's nice to have the option.

Then again, the argument put forth by many of advocates for primes is that not having the ability to zoom "forces" the photographer to be more creative. On the other hand, I shoot primes exclusively, and find this lack of versatility annoying, if anything.

So, it all comes back to this:
I suppose what you're saying is that a 'quality image' does not always depend on 'image quality', and I would not disagree with that.
Those sound like the words of a remarkably intelligent fellow, who, I imagine, is ridiculously good looking as well. ;)
and, I guess, we can include that, for at least some photographers, less is more.
 
rwbaron wrote:

In this case, people were bandying around the term 'image quality', so all I did was show people images and ask them to rank them against 'image quality' and some other qualities. The you look for correlation between the qualities, and you would expect if there is a high correlation then the two qualities are strongly related.
Were these images identical in every way except for the resolution of the capture device? If not how could this be a valid test?
Why would they need to be identical apart from resolution (or any other parameter)? This is not an experiment. It was not the images being tested, it was people's reactions to them, and how those reactions correlated. Basically it is an experiment looking for a degree of synonymity.
First you say "This is not an experiment" and then you say "Basically it is an experiment looking for a degree of synonymity". Apparently you're not certain what you were doing either :).
Really it doesn't matter what the images are, or what are their qualities, as long as they have a spread of them.
I'm not a scientist by any stretch but this doesn't sound like it was properly controlled.
Yes, you are not a scientist by any stretch. It wasn't a fully rigorous psychological test by any means, but you are looking in the wrong place for 'controls'. What you are saying, I suspect is that your opinion differs from the generalised opinion that the experiment elicited. We'll that is OK, opinions differ, but if people use different meanings for the same term, in the end, communication is impossible.
Here you go again calling it an experiment when you said it wasn't in your first paragraph.

Let me provide a link that IMO would be helpful for you, Sheehy and a few others that post frequently on this forum.

http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-Being-a-Condescending-Person

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
 
Oh horseradish. We don't even have a decent body of testing yet.

Look at these results and tell me Canon hasn't been doing sensor development.

Yeah, I remember how quickly people on this forum took a U-Turn once the 7D got great reviews and test charts from sources that could be held accountable. What have people been going on up to this point for the 5D Mark III? Mostly amateur, anonymous internet sources.
 
I too found the results of TechRadar's analysis interesting but there are some on this forum that are already saying their results are bogus and that they don't know what they're doing.

Time will tell.

Bob
Oh horseradish. We don't even have a decent body of testing yet.

Look at these results and tell me Canon hasn't been doing sensor development.

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
 
I too found the results of TechRadar's analysis interesting but there are some on this forum that are already saying their results are bogus and that they don't know what they're doing.

Time will tell.

Bob
Oh horseradish. We don't even have a decent body of testing yet.

Look at these results and tell me Canon hasn't been doing sensor development.

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
I'm trying in vain to find the criticism of TechRadar that you mention. Could you share some links to these criticisms of their methods? Are the people calling them "bogus" at all convincing (one never knows on DPR, this site draws all types).
 

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