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Update on D800 AF issues

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I bought it to use as a studio camera because of the resolution - providing you have the right lenses, it delivers absolutely amazing image quality. The catch is that it also requires a lot of care to get the most out of it. Color and dynamic range, especially at base ISO, are the best I've ever seen - of any camera, including the medium format systems I've rented on occasion. Noise performance at the pixel level loses out to the D700, but it was never meant to be an available light PJ machine.

UK/ Europe cameras come from different batches; you'll notice your serial numbers start with 2, whereas ours are 8.

Don't worry too much about the AF issue; I believe it's confined to a single batch as the only reported cases I've seen come from the 8000xxx-8001xxx block. In any case, Nikon is aware of the issue and working on a fix - so even if you do have the problem, it shouldn't be for long. Center point AF works fine, by the way.

Ming
thomas2279f said:
Thanks Ming.

Without these issues you mentioned are you happy with the D800.

I would normally wait for ordering a new camera for issues to be found and fixed but with the D800 I thought it was a special one off camera and luckily I did put in an order like I did since the price in UK has gone up by £200 / $250 USD
Click to expand...
--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com
 
Ming,
Thank you for the post.

A bigger concern for me is what was learned in this Utube Reveiw.

In the studio the D800 had small adjustments after the snap to. and was outperformed by the new 5D mkIII in the same light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omTo7UxbJX8

DO YOU experiance this too? say on the 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 VRII.

The 24mm f1.4 I was not super happy with the low light AF for events.

TheD800 fps is less of a concern ... BUT, the Solid "Snap to" AF , zip beep .. that I am used to , I NEED. and reliability.

I am concerned.

Thank you,
HG
Ming Thein said:
I thought users here might want to read an update on my D800 AF issues. You may recall that I found some problems with the left hand side AF sensor bank only on my body, specifically when trying to focus fast wides; center and right side points were okay, but the entire left group would wildly back focus. Curiously, only with wide angle lenses.

I spent the morning at Nikon again trying out a number of D800 bodies and various popular lenses - I'll put up a detailed analysis on my blog later once I get a chance to write (www.blog.mingthein.com) - but the current situation is this:

1. It seems to be a batch issue. If you have a D800 body with the serial in the 8000xxx to 8001xxx range, check your left side AF sensors (single point mode, AFC or AFS) with a fast wide (24/1.4 is ideal) if you have one. You'll most probably find it's off. We tried a total of five bodies in this serial, and not one could focus either of two 24/1.4s properly on the left side - the center and right points were fine, and the lenses were fine on a D3x, D4 and D700.

2. There is no known fix at the moment, but I'm told that after I reported it and it was verified by the techs here, Nikon HQ are looking into it as an urgent matter.

3. I don't have a fix either. Right now I'm using my D800 as a studio only camera with lenses 50mm for longer, and there don't seem to be any AF issues there (though image quality is quite another matter). Image quality is superb, and there are no one-sided softness issues with planar subjects that makes me believe it's still the AF sensor which is the root cause of the problem. I've been offered to swap for another camera (that makes a total of two so far) but since they're all from the same serial batch, I elected to take a D800E instead as a replacement from the next production batch instead at the end of the month, hopefully it'll have come off a different line. Looks like I will be reviewing both after all.

If anybody has questions, please post them here or on the blog and I'll do my best to answer them.

Ming

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com
Click to expand...
--
http://tourist-of-light.blogspot.com/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit any of my photos & re-post, to help show me 'the way'. * I am trying to Elevate the Level of my 'Snap Shots' :)
 
For AF-S mode, no adjustments. For AF-C, yes - but nothing different from my D700.

Snapped to just fine on the 24-70 and 70-200II I tried. Less so with the 24/1.4, but we know my unit has a focusing issue.
Hawaii-geek said:
A bigger concern for me is what was learned in this Utube Reveiw.

In the studio the D800 had small adjustments after the snap to. and was outperformed by the new 5D mkIII in the same light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omTo7UxbJX8

DO YOU experiance this too? say on the 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 VRII.

The 24mm f1.4 I was not super happy with the low light AF for events.

TheD800 fps is less of a concern ... BUT, the Solid "Snap to" AF , zip beep .. that I am used to , I NEED. and reliability.

I am concerned.

Thank you,
HG
Ming Thein said:
I thought users here might want to read an update on my D800 AF issues. You may recall that I found some problems with the left hand side AF sensor bank only on my body, specifically when trying to focus fast wides; center and right side points were okay, but the entire left group would wildly back focus. Curiously, only with wide angle lenses.

I spent the morning at Nikon again trying out a number of D800 bodies and various popular lenses - I'll put up a detailed analysis on my blog later once I get a chance to write (www.blog.mingthein.com) - but the current situation is this:

1. It seems to be a batch issue. If you have a D800 body with the serial in the 8000xxx to 8001xxx range, check your left side AF sensors (single point mode, AFC or AFS) with a fast wide (24/1.4 is ideal) if you have one. You'll most probably find it's off. We tried a total of five bodies in this serial, and not one could focus either of two 24/1.4s properly on the left side - the center and right points were fine, and the lenses were fine on a D3x, D4 and D700.

2. There is no known fix at the moment, but I'm told that after I reported it and it was verified by the techs here, Nikon HQ are looking into it as an urgent matter.

3. I don't have a fix either. Right now I'm using my D800 as a studio only camera with lenses 50mm for longer, and there don't seem to be any AF issues there (though image quality is quite another matter). Image quality is superb, and there are no one-sided softness issues with planar subjects that makes me believe it's still the AF sensor which is the root cause of the problem. I've been offered to swap for another camera (that makes a total of two so far) but since they're all from the same serial batch, I elected to take a D800E instead as a replacement from the next production batch instead at the end of the month, hopefully it'll have come off a different line. Looks like I will be reviewing both after all.

If anybody has questions, please post them here or on the blog and I'll do my best to answer them.

Ming

--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com
Click to expand...
--
http://tourist-of-light.blogspot.com/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit any of my photos & re-post, to help show me 'the way'. * I am trying to Elevate the Level of my 'Snap Shots' :)
Click to expand...
--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com
 
Hi Ming, I have read extensively through your blog… superb write up.

just letting you and the rest of the community know, I do have a D800 (and a D4) that came out of the batch that your speaking about. Over the last couple of weeks, I have tested extensively with charts and of course real world. I have not encountered your issue with the 24 1.4, in fact, I found the opposite compared to my D3s and D700, it is faster and alot more accurate to acquire focus.

There are other issues, i.e. contrast is lacking somewhat wide open with the 85 1.4g… making it 'look' soft… obviously at this insane megapixels count, lens flaws are showing up in the 24, 35 and 85 primes, although my 200 f2 is superb…

with any new technology, I test like a mad nut because I have to be satisfied before I put this into my paid shoots.

The D4 is an absolute workhorse, and although they have apparently the same AF systems… the D4 kills the D800, not even a close run thing.
Hope this helps some people, I'm from Australia, Canberra to be exact..
 
Thanks for the compliments and info - is your camera a 8001xxx or 8000xxx serial?

I suspect I'll have similar findings once I get a camera with a properly sorted AF module. If I use single point only, and pick from center or right side points, I agree - it's faster and more positive than the D700 in good light, about the same when the light gets low. I think running it in 51-point 3D tracking mode initially didn't work properly because the camera was getting incorrect information from the left side of the AF module - which would certainly throw tracking out. Not having used a properly working D800, I can't comment on whether this behavior is because of my camera or the AF module itself.

Totally agree with you on testing to the nth degree before shooting commercially with it - I hate using untested equipment and not knowing what it can and can't do, especially when the client is expecting (and paying for) results.

Try an 85/1.8 G and let me know what you think - I was blown away by it today. I don't think the 85/1.4 G can hold up to it wide open, or in fact, down to about f4. The T stops are different (in favor of the 1.4G) but that's another story.

The 24/1.4 is superbly sharp if I use live view to focus . 35...is so-so at best. Not what I was expecting after seeing the beautiful 3-D look and sharpness on the D700.

Preliminary testing of my new 85 PCE suggests it may well be the best of the bunch.

Ming
Huckles said:
Hi Ming, I have read extensively through your blog… superb write up.

just letting you and the rest of the community know, I do have a D800 (and a D4) that came out of the batch that your speaking about. Over the last couple of weeks, I have tested extensively with charts and of course real world. I have not encountered your issue with the 24 1.4, in fact, I found the opposite compared to my D3s and D700, it is faster and alot more accurate to acquire focus.

There are other issues, i.e. contrast is lacking somewhat wide open with the 85 1.4g… making it 'look' soft… obviously at this insane megapixels count, lens flaws are showing up in the 24, 35 and 85 primes, although my 200 f2 is superb…

with any new technology, I test like a mad nut because I have to be satisfied before I put this into my paid shoots.

The D4 is an absolute workhorse, and although they have apparently the same AF systems… the D4 kills the D800, not even a close run thing.
Hope this helps some people, I'm from Australia, Canberra to be exact..
Click to expand...
--
Leica Camera brand ambassador and NPS member.
Portfolio and photographic musings at http://www.blog.mingthein.com
 
Mine is in the 800xxx serial.

I'm stunned that there are people comparing the D800 high iso to the D3s or D4… it is not even close…

Sorry, let me re-state that, if you 'downsample'.. it is.. but seriously, we are buying into a 36mp sensor, not a 12… I don't like it when people change testing rules or caveats to make something look 'better'… imagine if you went and chose a car this way… lol.

it is a sensational sensor, capable of exquisite shots… and I agree, when done well.. it is hard to pick up the D4/D3s e.t.c.. but when done well… it takes ALOT to get it just right… where as the other bodies do it in a canter.

I wouldn't use this past 3200, the D4 comfortably at 6400 I would use and also my M9-p up to 1250, so hope this helps to show you my threshold.

Van
 
Huckles said:
Mine is in the 800xxx serial.
Click to expand...
He says 8000xxxx - you say 80xxx. So which is it.
Huckles said:
I'm stunned that there are people comparing the D800 high iso to the D3s or D4… it is not even close…

Sorry, let me re-state that, if you 'downsample'.. it is.. but seriously, we are buying into a 36mp sensor, not a 12… I don't like it when people change testing rules or caveats to make something look 'better'… imagine if you went and chose a car this way… lol.

Van
Click to expand...
So no up or down sampling? Then I assume your testing and conclusions are being done in print form? If not, then pixels at 100 percent testing on the monitor mean nothing other than what one pixel can do against another pixel. One pixel against another is never used in the real world, but prints or web images are. So to say "it is not even close" is comparing a 16mp sensor against a 36mp sensor without regard to a specific application of the sensor. I personally find that totally useless.

If you say the D800 and the D4 are not even close in a print of 8x12 then you are saying something conclusive. Otherwise testing a single pixel against another is just playing around.

For me, I have done extensive testing of the D800 against the D4 at medium high ISO (ISO 3200 - 12800) and the results with the D800 are better than I would have ever expected them to be.

Peter

--
'Life is good - eternal life is better'
 
Then stick to your d40 and be done with it. I don't want this to get into a 'debate' about downsampling e.t.c.

it is an awesome machine. The video component is fantastic, just wished that Nikon put the 2.7 crop in the D800 as well… that makes it very versatile.
 
Peter Gregg said:
Huckles said:
Mine is in the 800xxx serial.
Click to expand...
He says 8000xxxx - you say 80xxx. So which is it.
Peter Gregg said:
I'm stunned that there are people comparing the D800 high iso to the D3s or D4… it is not even close…

Sorry, let me re-state that, if you 'downsample'.. it is.. but seriously, we are buying into a 36mp sensor, not a 12… I don't like it when people change testing rules or caveats to make something look 'better'… imagine if you went and chose a car this way… lol.

Van
Click to expand...
So no up or down sampling? Then I assume your testing and conclusions are being done in print form? If not, then pixels at 100 percent testing on the monitor mean nothing other than what one pixel can do against another pixel. One pixel against another is never used in the real world, but prints or web images are. So to say "it is not even close" is comparing a 16mp sensor against a 36mp sensor without regard to a specific application of the sensor. I personally find that totally useless.

If you say the D800 and the D4 are not even close in a print of 8x12 then you are saying something conclusive. Otherwise testing a single pixel against another is just playing around.

For me, I have done extensive testing of the D800 against the D4 at medium high ISO (ISO 3200 - 12800) and the results with the D800 are better than I would have ever expected them to be.
Click to expand...
I agree with you here… the D800 results are 'better than I would have ever expected them to be'. I never said they were bad. Just coincidentally, when you go buy a car, do you test drive it all the way up to the speed limit and that's it.. make your judgement on that? We are purchasing a 36mp sensor. forget for a moment the validity of the end product which is usually a print. dxomark should be testing the sensor, on the sensor… not on it's potential print that an assumed user would print to… what if the print were a billboard? Totally different tools, but you say you have the D4 for testing and pixel to pixel, how was it? If you don't compare that way, you might as well just buy a d700 (which is still very nice by the way) and be done with it.
Peter Gregg said:
Peter

--
'Life is good - eternal life is better'
Click to expand...
 
Ming: Thanx for the test and detailed post, I did read your exhaustive test with the various lenses on your blog.

Its good to note that it is only specfic to some batches.

I for one am waiting on the wings to purchase one and primarily use if for landscape photography, I am sure that I will most be using the 17-35 & 12-24, It good to know what you have found.

I have been following the forum to see if any other issues have surfarced, for now this seems like the Major one with the other being the greening of the display.

Is there anyhting else that you are aware of or people have reported ?

Thanx again
 
I'm thinking this has more to do with aperture than focal length. It would be interesting if you could have tried multiple copies of the same f1.4 lens.

Do you have a 85 1.4 to test with? That might settle the aperture vs focal length question. The 24-70 f2.8 working makes me think it isn't focal length.

Also, are you using a cross-type autofocus sensor that is supposed to handle the extra precision required at f2.8 or below?

I've been doing some reading, and it sounds to me like the lenses with a larger aperture than f2 can be more difficult to focus because of abberations.

There is a diagram on this page that illustrates the concept of how the light rays from the outer edges of the lens can skew results (the article is about focus shift... apparently not your issue since you kept the lens open).

http://mansurovs.com/what-is-focus-shift

Anyway, since you've isolated the left sensor bank, it sounds like something is out of tolerance.
 
Hi Ming,

My apologies for my poor English.

I ran some tests, nothing scientific: Tripod, SB800, Timer Nikkor 14-28 2.8
These don´t look good....

14mm @ 2.8 focus on the word RIGHT and using the furthest right focus point.



14mm @ 2.8 focus on the word CENTRE and using the centre focus point.



14mm @ 2.8 focus on the word LEFT and using the furthest LEFT focus point.



Things improve a little @ 20 mm and I woud say very good @ 24mm. I might take it to the Nikon Service Centre....

--
Best regards,

Jorge Macedo
http://www.jmacedophotography.com
 
Thanks for the checking the AF issue and pointing it out (JMacedo was kind enough to post this issue on the Thailand thread), my serial no falls in the range you identified. I probably wouldn't have picked it up until later (with my luck after warranty) otherwise as I bought 14-24, 24-120, and a 50 1.4 and did not have any fast wides planned in the immediate future...

I do have the 14-24 2.8 and I will try your methodology in the second post when my battery is charged.

I just picked mine up in BKK - charging now. The Thai only manual, the dead battery, and the fact that this is my first Nikon isn't helping.

I was told by the dealer that about half of the D4's in their first batch had issues - didn't inquire further on this.

Man - the menu system gives you a lot of options.

I did a couple of test shots before putting the battery to charge but the color was really really bad (I did have it set to auto WB) so that's another potential problem.

I am going to start a new thread so people can post issues they have encountered so that we can make sure ours are not affected, or identify and rectify issues and teething problems.

Thanks again.
 
This issue really spoiled my day, I was so excited about getting the D800, why didn't I wait longer... I am no expert but can´t see how come firmware can fix this! This is hardware! Hope I am wrong!...
--
Best regards,

Jorge Macedo
http://www.jmacedophotography.com
 
Huckles said:
Peter Gregg said:
Huckles said:
Mine is in the 800xxx serial.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Huckles said:
I agree with you here… the D800 results are 'better than I would have ever expected them to be'. I never said they were bad. Just coincidentally, when you go buy a car, do you test drive it all the way up to the speed limit and that's it.. make your judgement on that? We are purchasing a 36mp sensor. forget for a moment the validity of the end product which is usually a print. dxomark should be testing the sensor, on the sensor… not on it's potential print that an assumed user would print to… what if the print were a billboard? Totally different tools, but you say you have the D4 for testing and pixel to pixel, how was it? If you don't compare that way, you might as well just buy a d700 (which is still very nice by the way) and be done with it.
Click to expand...
To use your car analogy, it's like testing a car on a racetrack because it has a larger engine than your old car and then complaining that it's noisier at 150 mph on the race track than your old car is when you drive it at 65 mph on the highway. Although it's interesting to note that the new car is noisy at 150 mph, don't you also want to drive it on the highway at 65mph and compare its noise level then? Wouldn't this make sense if most of the time you're going to be driving it at normal highway speeds?

--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
 
Honestly this is not a new problem at all.

I have experienced this issue with my D3 with several lenses. The outer AF points are always the ones that cause 'trouble'. It depends on the lens, though. I tried it with three different D3 bodies, it's the same on all of them.

My old AF-S 80-200/2.8 is very accurate with all AF points.

The AF DC 105/2 is accurate with the AF points around the center and the more towards the edge an AF point is, the more focus shift you get. With AF fine adjust I can make the outer points to be accurate, but then the drift is happening to the center AF points.

The AF 85/1.4 D shows the same drift towards the outer points. Center points are fine.

The Sigma 50/1.4 HSM I have is good with most AF points except some of the outer ones.

My AF-S 24-70/2.8 is perfect with any AF point.

My AF-I 300/2.8 is also perfect with all AF points.

My AF-S14-24/2.8 is also perfect with all AF points.

I doubt it's 'wide angle' in general. Based on my experience it's the optical design of the lens.

--
-------David-------
 
Octane said:
Honestly this is not a new problem at all.
Click to expand...
Have you "honestly" experienced this?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=41131912
Octane said:
I have experienced this issue with my D3 with several lenses. The outer AF points are always the ones that cause 'trouble'. It depends on the lens, though. I tried it with three different D3 bodies, it's the same on all of them.

My old AF-S 80-200/2.8 is very accurate with all AF points.

The AF DC 105/2 is accurate with the AF points around the center and the more towards the edge an AF point is, the more focus shift you get. With AF fine adjust I can make the outer points to be accurate, but then the drift is happening to the center AF points.

The AF 85/1.4 D shows the same drift towards the outer points. Center points are fine.

The Sigma 50/1.4 HSM I have is good with most AF points except some of the outer ones.

My AF-S 24-70/2.8 is perfect with any AF point.

My AF-I 300/2.8 is also perfect with all AF points.

My AF-S14-24/2.8 is also perfect with all AF points.

I doubt it's 'wide angle' in general. Based on my experience it's the optical design of the lens.

--
-------David-------
Click to expand...
--
Best regards,

Jorge Macedo
http://www.jmacedophotography.com
 
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