My 25 best from B-ball this weekend

http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/basketball/bball1/Page1.htm

Got my "white balance problems" figured out (must not have actually set the custom WB in the camera). Since I saved the Expo-Disc white-balance shot (shot at the lights, BTW), fixing it up in YarcPlus was no problem.

This is one place where the AWB of the 1D failed miserably, BTW. All the images shot with it had a pretty strong yellow cast to them. So, even if you have the 1D, go get yourself an Expo-Disc! And SAVE that shot of the gray card, too. Just in case you somehow don't end up setting the CWB correctly in camera. Backup is a concept that can be applied to ALL stages of photography.

I probably shot about 150 frames during these games. I ended up with 75 of them on my Micro-Drive when I got home. Out of those 75, I chose the 25 best.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Ah ha not so easy is it! It's not like taking pictures of guys sitting around playing guitars. You should have tried this with your D30. That would have been a challenge!

It looks like you were dealing with multiple light temperatures (round and rectangular lights) and the tradational light falloff behind the basket. I routinely have to blow out white uniforms just to expose for players' faces on most of these courts.

No way! LOL -- what do you think I am, a miracle worker?

Scott Larson said:

You should have tried this
with your D30. That would have been a challenge!

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

I'll have to say it was very challenging. But I still did better than I thought I would do. (Still have LOTS of room for improvement, obviously).

Tell me more about the light fall-off behind the basket thing.

I was having a heck of a time understanding what was going on with my exposures. All shot in manual mode, BTW.

As I recall, the lightmeter seemed to show MORE light near the basket (at least when the lumisphere was aimed towards the wall). We attributed this to light bouncing off the wall, though, and used the indicated light from pointing the lumisphere AWAY from the wall, parallel to the ground.

I planned on getting there early to walk around with the meter to try to understand things better, but it started earlier than my friend had recalled.

At first, white shirts did occasionally blow-out on the LCD, so I backed off a little. Turns out I shouldn't have. I shot at ISO 1600, f/2, 1/400 to 1/500 most of the game. Should've been more like 1/200 to 1/250.

Next time, I will shoot this at ISO 1600, f/2, 1/250, and adjust up 1/3 in YP later, if required. I'd like to get there earlier, to see what I have to do with my lightmeter to get similar readings. (Still working on proper interpretation of the incident meter).

It does seem that right up next to the walls (behind the basket) that the light falls off somewhat. I'm not sure why that is, though.

Scott Larson said:

Ah ha not so easy is it! It's not like taking pictures of guys
sitting around playing guitars. You should have tried this
with your D30. That would have been a challenge!

It looks like you were dealing with multiple light temperatures
(round and rectangular lights) and the tradational light falloff
behind the basket. I routinely have to blow out white uniforms just
to expose for players' faces on most of these courts.

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

There are some good shots there. And yes it is pretty tough stuff. I tagged along with a friend who was shooting a championship game for a newspaper (was a privately funded Pro league, not the NBA), and used my D60 with a 28-80mm 2.8 and 50mm 1.4. This was my first time shooting basketball digitally, I did it once many years ago in school with film, but really didn't know what I was doing back then.

http://www.matthewchase.com/basketball

--
Matt Chase
http://www.matthewchase.com

::::thud:::: zzZZZzzZZzzzzZzzzzzz

Nice shots. Hmmmmm, we all set up under the basket on the same side.

Next time, try some from outside the sidelines, but still behind the baseline. I got a lot of neat shots from that angle. I think I actually prefer it to my shots from under the basket at a 45 degree angle.

I was using a 135/2 on a 1D. You might think the 135/2 is still OK with the D60, but it might be a little tight. In that case, use an 85mm.

I liked my 50mm under the basket. The 85/1.2 was just too tight for me to reliably get good photos. My friend loved my 85/1.2 under the basket, though, with his 1D.

Matt Chase said:

There are some good shots there. And yes it is pretty tough stuff.
I tagged along with a friend who was shooting a championship game
for a newspaper (was a privately funded Pro league, not the NBA),
and used my D60 with a 28-80mm 2.8 and 50mm 1.4. This was my first
time shooting basketball digitally, I did it once many years ago in
school with film, but really didn't know what I was doing back then.

http://www.matthewchase.com/basketball

--
Matt Chase
http://www.matthewchase.com

::::thud:::: zzZZZzzZZzzzzZzzzzzz

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

DavidP said:

Tell me more about the light fall-off behind the basket thing.

Click to expand...

Venues have worked very hard to make sure that any camera shooting behind the basket will have tricky exposures. The face is the most important thing to expose for. One basketball picture I took had nothing in focus except a player's face and she loved it but at f1.8 1/125, that was all I could do for her. The reason for this long exposure was that this court like many others are lit mostly from the center and whatever fill lights might be behind the basket are often blocked by the backboard (seemingly transparent ones never pass even 50% of the light). So as soon as a player approaches the basket, the light drops off quickly.

A great example of this is the Chiles Center at University of Portland. It has two features that make things hard. First they have most of the lights hanging from the scoreboard which is hanging over the center the court. They also have some sponsor ads lit by flurosecent lights shining directly on the floor at the scoring desk. This adds up to blown backgrounds and shadowy faces:



I've never been able to meter this situation right. If the camera sees any of this background light, it's guaranteed to underexpose the player. You can try spot metering but unless you can keep the spot on the player's face every second, you'll have even more trouble.

DavidP #28649 said:

I was having a heck of a time understanding what was going on with
my exposures. All shot in manual mode, BTW.

Click to expand...

Yes I just expose manually and hope for the best.

DavidP #28649 said:

As I recall, the lightmeter seemed to show MORE light near the
basket (at least when the lumisphere was aimed towards the wall).
We attributed this to light bouncing off the wall, though, and used
the indicated light from pointing the lumisphere AWAY from the
wall, parallel to the ground.

Click to expand...

Yep, that's exactly what happens.

DavidP #28649 said:

At first, white shirts did occasionally blow-out on the LCD, so I
backed off a little. Turns out I shouldn't have.

Click to expand...

If I see I'm blowing out white uniforms on the LCD, I'm happy because then I know I'm exposing the players' faces properly.

DavidP #28649 said:

It does seem that right up next to the walls (behind the basket)
that the light falls off somewhat. I'm not sure why that is,
though.

Click to expand...

It doesn't look like there is much room between the basket and the back wall. I suspect that the last hanging light is several feet away from that wall. The center of the court receives light from multiple lights since their coverages overlap each other, but the lights on the ends of the courts are all by themselves.

If that's the case (light bounces off the wall, and is seen by the incident meter), then wouldn't that same light also be useful for lighting up a player's face as she approaches the basket?

I understand that the light from the ceiling is lower near the basket (for reasons you state). But if the light meter is reading more light (because of the walls), it would seem that this light should be accounted for when metering with the camera.

Like I said, I'm somewhat at a loss. I almost wondered if these lights have a "cycle" to them, and that at 1/400 or 1/500, the light output might vary enough to cause me problems.

Scott Larson said:

DavidP said:

As I recall, the lightmeter seemed to show MORE light near the
basket (at least when the lumisphere was aimed towards the wall).
We attributed this to light bouncing off the wall, though, and used
the indicated light from pointing the lumisphere AWAY from the
wall, parallel to the ground.

Click to expand...

Yep, that's exactly what happens.

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

DavidP said:

http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/basketball/bball1/Page1.htm

Got my "white balance problems" figured out (must not have actually
set the custom WB in the camera). Since I saved the Expo-Disc
white-balance shot (shot at the lights, BTW), fixing it up in
YarcPlus was no problem.

This is one place where the AWB of the 1D failed miserably, BTW.
All the images shot with it had a pretty strong yellow cast to
them. So, even if you have the 1D, go get yourself an Expo-Disc!
And SAVE that shot of the gray card, too. Just in case you
somehow don't end up setting the CWB correctly in camera. Backup
is a concept that can be applied to ALL stages of photography.

I probably shot about 150 frames during these games. I ended up
with 75 of them on my Micro-Drive when I got home. Out of those
75, I chose the 25 best.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

--
Ozy
http://www.carandmodel.com
1D, D60, 70-200L f2.8 IS, 16-35L, 28-135 IS, & 50 f1.4, 550EX

Expo-disc is a disk that is used in front of your lens to help you set your white blance. It is an alternative to a gray card and has some very good reviews. I cannot remember the website or I would post it here. I am thinking about getting one myself because it is smaller and easier to carry around compared to the greycard.

Jason

'Ozy' said:

DavidP said:

http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/basketball/bball1/Page1.htm

Got my "white balance problems" figured out (must not have actually
set the custom WB in the camera). Since I saved the Expo-Disc
white-balance shot (shot at the lights, BTW), fixing it up in
YarcPlus was no problem.

This is one place where the AWB of the 1D failed miserably, BTW.
All the images shot with it had a pretty strong yellow cast to
them. So, even if you have the 1D, go get yourself an Expo-Disc!
And SAVE that shot of the gray card, too. Just in case you
somehow don't end up setting the CWB correctly in camera. Backup
is a concept that can be applied to ALL stages of photography.

I probably shot about 150 frames during these games. I ended up
with 75 of them on my Micro-Drive when I got home. Out of those
75, I chose the 25 best.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

--
Ozy
http://www.carandmodel.com
1D, D60, 70-200L f2.8 IS, 16-35L, 28-135 IS, & 50 f1.4, 550EX

Click to expand...

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]

We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their new products!

I DID shoot with the D30! It took more than 150 shots to get 35 "keepers", but with enough practice, it CAN work.

The OoF (with a Sigma 70-200 f2.8) wasn't as big a problem as the shutter lag. And of course, there were shots that the photographer didn't pan accurately enough with the center focus point, as well as those that required other than center focus but couldn't be used in AI Servo mode......

And, of course, the ExpoDisc worked beautifully.

kunza

DavidP said:

Scott Larson said:

You should have tried this
with your D30. That would have been a challenge!

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

http://www.expodisc.com

and it IS easier to use than a gray card. (fits in the bag easier, too)

kunza

Jason Stoller said:

Jason

'Ozy' said:

DavidP said:

http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/basketball/bball1/Page1.htm

Got my "white balance problems" figured out (must not have actually
set the custom WB in the camera). Since I saved the Expo-Disc
white-balance shot (shot at the lights, BTW), fixing it up in
YarcPlus was no problem.

This is one place where the AWB of the 1D failed miserably, BTW.
All the images shot with it had a pretty strong yellow cast to
them. So, even if you have the 1D, go get yourself an Expo-Disc!
And SAVE that shot of the gray card, too. Just in case you
somehow don't end up setting the CWB correctly in camera. Backup
is a concept that can be applied to ALL stages of photography.

I probably shot about 150 frames during these games. I ended up
with 75 of them on my Micro-Drive when I got home. Out of those
75, I chose the 25 best.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

--
Ozy
http://www.carandmodel.com
1D, D60, 70-200L f2.8 IS, 16-35L, 28-135 IS, & 50 f1.4, 550EX

Click to expand...

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!

Click to expand...

DavidP:

BTW, no flames intended in the previous post - just good natured rubbing since I can't currently afford the 1D.
Anyone interested in my D30/D60 success can see representative photos here:

http://www.fototime.com/inv/F108B73FE52227E

I'm looking forward to the 1D, but still can't throw stones at the D30 and D60, when you work around their limitations, they are both fine cameras!

kunza

Dave Kunze said:

The OoF (with a Sigma 70-200 f2.8) wasn't as big a problem as the
shutter lag. And of course, there were shots that the photographer
didn't pan accurately enough with the center focus point, as well
as those that required other than center focus but couldn't be used
in AI Servo mode......

And, of course, the ExpoDisc worked beautifully.

kunza

DavidP said:

Scott Larson said:

You should have tried this
with your D30. That would have been a challenge!

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Make that "good natured ribbing" instead! (I certainly don't want anyone getting the wrong idea!) ;-0

kunza

Well, it CAN be done, but it probably ain't fun, and it probably ain't pretty.

My friend used to do this at the same gym with his D30. Drove him NUTS, though he did get some keepers.

He's had his 1D now for a few weeks. Results? A lot more shots that actually fire (not waiting for AF to snap-on), and a higher percentage of keepers.

Of course, he's still frustrated with the results. Not even the 1D is gonna give perfect focus every time in situations like this. Unless your name is Steve Mitchell or Al Goldis.

Dave Kunze said:

I DID shoot with the D30! It took more than 150 shots to get 35
"keepers", but with enough practice, it CAN work.

The OoF (with a Sigma 70-200 f2.8) wasn't as big a problem as the
shutter lag. And of course, there were shots that the photographer
didn't pan accurately enough with the center focus point, as well
as those that required other than center focus but couldn't be used
in AI Servo mode......

And, of course, the ExpoDisc worked beautifully.

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

DavidP:

And you can bet the farm, as soon as I can afford it, the D30 gets swapped out for a 1D!

kunza

DavidP said:

Well, it CAN be done, but it probably ain't fun, and it probably
ain't pretty.

Click to expand...

I assume you saw the refurbs that went for $2499 from Samy's last week (yes, 1D refurbs). They went in a few hours (35 of them). They now have a waiting list of over 50 people in case more show up.

Did you get on that list? SUPER price!

I've seen used ones go for as low as $3500. There's one on Fred's site right now at that price. New ones are about $4200 right now.

Dave Kunze said:

And you can bet the farm, as soon as I can afford it, the D30 gets
swapped out for a 1D!

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

DavidP said:

If that's the case (light bounces off the wall, and is seen by the
incident meter), then wouldn't that same light also be useful for
lighting up a player's face as she approaches the basket?

Click to expand...

I'm clueless about incident meters but I know that walls will reflect only a very small fraction of the light back onto the court.

DavidP #28649 said:

I understand that the light from the ceiling is lower near the
basket (for reasons you state). But if the light meter is reading
more light (because of the walls), it would seem that this light
should be accounted for when metering with the camera.

Click to expand...

Again I know nothing of incident meters. To get the best exposure I meter off of a face near the basket before and set the 1D to that exposure manually. Sometimes this doesn't work in really shadowy gyms (the uniforms will completely blow out so you can't even read the lettering) so I'll have no choice but to underexpose the faces and make them shadowy. If that's the case I usually shoot from the side or the corner so parts of their faces will get some of the light from the center of the court so at least you'll be able to recognize them.

DavidP #28649 said:

Like I said, I'm somewhat at a loss. I almost wondered if these
lights have a "cycle" to them, and that at 1/400 or 1/500, the
light output might vary enough to cause me problems.

Click to expand...

That's easy to check for. Take several fast shutter high speed drive shots of the lights. If they're cycling, you'll see them turn off in some shots. If they cycle through colors, they'll appear different colors in some shots.

Dave Kunze said:

I DID shoot with the D30! It took more than 150 shots to get 35
"keepers", but with enough practice, it CAN work.

Click to expand...

I did too. Lotsa fun wasn't it? Once I trained myself to never take shots when the D30 was confused, I started to get around 75% usable shots. Of course this didn't include the countless number of shots I never took. When I got a 1D I had to retrain myself to take shots I knew the D30 could never get.