Beautiful SD1 flowers!

PaulParis said:

Dull weather, dull colors.

Click to expand...

Is that something you feel it must be that way...?

It seems you Sigma guys are coming up with whole new paradigms to justify whatever limitations Foveon sensors may show.

These were taken in Keukenhof, Amsterdam in April 2009, with a Canon 1DMKIII, under an overcast, rainy sky (some color channels are clipped due to the quick conversion from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB. The 16-bit TIFF originals are perfect.)

(...You can correlate the time stamp data from the EXIF with the half-hourly historic reports for the day, at the bottom of this page. My 1DMKIII was set for Portuguese summer time, so subtract 1 hour from the EXIF times before correlating with the GMT times on the table: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/EHAM/2009/4/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA ).

























































PK

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epsilon sigma taph said:

These images are not showing what this camera is capable of. Until you see the work of competant professionals it's pointless to comment.

Click to expand...

Why?

Competent photographer's (either professional or amateurs) can eradicate those color casts with their workflow (with more or less time and effort, depending on the consistency of the color casts throughout exposure solutions).

I know I can.

...but that is not the point.

The point is that " straight-out-of-the-camera " Jpegs from any other DSLR camera manufacturer do not feature the consistent color casts all Sigma DSLR Foveon do.

Some Sigmas feature an yellow one, some magenta...Now the SD1 presents you guys with a dual (Magenta+Blue) one...It must be a bonus, on account of the price.

...And don't come and tell me that it dosn't matter, because it can be corrected in post, from RAW. A good, modern DSLR must be able to output decent (read color cast neutral) Jpegs right out of the box.

I will eagerly await for what the DPR assigned reviewer will have to say about this, they, who are so picky about this subject that they have been systematical writing objections to the WB rendition of most of the DSLR for as long as I can remember ("Cons" for each camera) in spite of the objective fact that this can be easily corrected in each of the reviewed cameras, as they all feature some kind of custom WB feature.

What I would like to know (...up to the point of actually been thinking of expanding this to essay study...) is:

Do you guys not see the color casts or is that a case that you actually like them?

PK

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CoryS said:

I don't post very much on this site, but I check out the Sigma forum pretty frequently, as I was planning on buying an SD15, and then an SD1 when I heard about that. I, like everyone, was taken aback by the pricing and have had to re-evaluate my plans for that purchase. With that said, every time I see samples, they are better and better. Some of the samples in this gallery flat out blow away anything I have seen from Canon, Nikon, Sony ect. Large prints from this camera will not have any competition from any current SLR available. I would imagine that Canon will have something massive coming out soon enough, but until then, this is the only game in town for SLR image quality in my humble, non-financially committed opinion.

Click to expand...

I have a hunch the new Canon 5DIII will give it a pretty darn good run for the money. In fact, much less money! JohnW

jrdigitalart said:

JW PHOTO said:

Might be something for DPR to work on and do a shootout between the two. JohnW

Click to expand...

DPR do a test on a SD camera? Does that mean that the aeronautical pigs are donning their goggles in readiness?

Click to expand...

Ya, I know DPR doesn't seem to know Sigma cameras exists, but I would think this one (SD1) should perk their interest a little. Beside, if Sigma thinks this is the "camera to end all cameras" and they must by the pricing, then there should be a "FREE" loaner on the way to DPR at this very moment. Right? JohnW

jrdigitalart said:

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Please visit my gallery at http://www.pbase.com/jrdigitalart/

Click to expand...

I loaded the picture of tourists going up steps into Photoshop, and found that the colour cast could be fixed easily in Curves.

So no doubt a future version of SPP will get it right.

JW PHOTO said:

, if Sigma thinks this is the "camera to end all cameras" and they must by the pricing, then there should be a "FREE" loaner on the way to DPR at this very moment. Right?

Click to expand...

They'd still not "get it", they'll compare the JPG engine at high ISOs against the frontrunners in this field and pronounce it a turd, it'd be lucky to get the test shots taken with a decent lens . DPR just didn't get the previous cameras so I don't think they'll get the SD1 either - and the hilarious price will only make matters worse . best they never see one IMO.

--
A Problem is only the pessimistic way of looking at a challenge

PhotoKhan said:

...but that is not the point.

The point is that " straight-out-of-the-camera " Jpegs from any other DSLR camera manufacturer do not feature the consistent color casts all Sigma DSLR Foveon do.

Click to expand...

This is absolute hogwash! Jpegs straight out of the Nikon D90 and D7000, shot in sunlight often come " straight-out-of-the-camera ", with a strong yellow cast. It's ugly and horrible. This is why I always shoot RAW.
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Vitée

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Adam

That's a little unfair...

Phil was very enthusiastic about Foveon prior to the release of the SD9 and quite enthusiastic about the SD9, too.

What's happened, I think, is that the SD9 was the only Sigma where the camera was reasonably competitive. Since then, DSLRs have grown significantly cheaper and rapidly developed in technology to the point that all of them are extremely competent - except for Sigma who still think it's 2002. DPR saved Sigma much embarrassment and humiliation by not reviewing the SD14.

The SD1 is possibly the new SD9 (if it weren't for the sad pricing). I would expect DPR to give it a very fair review and if the image quality lives up to the billing, they'll be more than fair acknowledging that.

But that price.... it raises the bar for expected quality, if the SD1 falls short on just about anything, that is going to be assessed with respect to that price.

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SigmaChrome said:

PhotoKhan said:

...but that is not the point.

The point is that " straight-out-of-the-camera " Jpegs from any other DSLR camera manufacturer do not feature the consistent color casts all Sigma DSLR Foveon do.

Click to expand...

This is absolute hogwash! Jpegs straight out of the Nikon D90 and D7000, shot in sunlight often come " straight-out-of-the-camera ", with a strong yellow cast. It's ugly and horrible. This is why I always shoot RAW.

Click to expand...

Can I have links to consistent output from those mentioned cameras that show this?

...I mean consistent in the same way as when we access a page of multiple jpeg samples from an SD1 we immediately perceive the magenta/blue cast without further examination:

http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD1/sample-photo/index.html

http://maros-images.sakura.ne.jp/sd1.html

Thanks!

PK

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PhotoKhan said:

SigmaChrome said:

PhotoKhan said:

...but that is not the point.

The point is that " straight-out-of-the-camera " Jpegs from any other DSLR camera manufacturer do not feature the consistent color casts all Sigma DSLR Foveon do.

Click to expand...

This is absolute hogwash! Jpegs straight out of the Nikon D90 and D7000, shot in sunlight often come " straight-out-of-the-camera ", with a strong yellow cast. It's ugly and horrible. This is why I always shoot RAW.

Click to expand...

Can I have links to consistent output from those mentioned cameras that show this?

...I mean consistent in the same way as when we access a page of multiple jpeg samples from an SD1 we immediately perceive the magenta/blue cast without further examination:

Click to expand...

I am seeing on my monitor just a magenta cast, rather than "magenta/blue" - which would be violet or purple. It is present in almost all the samples so far.

Anyway, I don't think it is serious. The SD1 is still in my opinion work-in-progress. Give them a year or two to get it right. The resolution is certainly there with a good lens.

We have to remember that Sigma have been making cameras for only about ten years, while Nikon, Canon and Leitz have many decades of experience.

PhotoKhan said:

http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD1/sample-photo/index.html

http://maros-images.sakura.ne.jp/sd1.html

Thanks!

PK

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“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
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(PBase Supporter)
-------------------------------------------------

Click to expand...

DavidMillier said:

Phil was very enthusiastic about Foveon prior to the release of the SD9 and quite enthusiastic about the SD9, too.

Click to expand...

Though that was 2002 and the D60 & D100 were £2000 and the S2-Pro even more ! , Now its the D300S and 7D which are around the grand and the SD1 costing as much as a small car

DavidMillier said:

What's happened, I think, is that the SD9 was the only Sigma where the camera was reasonably competitive.

Click to expand...

Yep, it was £1200 when the D60 was £2000 .

DavidMillier said:

DPR saved Sigma much embarrassment and humiliation by not reviewing the SD14.

Click to expand...

they didn't bother with the SD15 either even though it was a fixed SD14 at a more sensible price (though in reality, its only now sensible at £599) . basically they review buggerall in the first place so I guess have to review stuff people want to see such as a crap Ricoh compact and Lensbabys .......... LOL . I gave up on DPR as a review site years ago, despite the high staff count, reviews are far and few between. Amazon should rename this site DP-Forums

--
A Problem is only the pessimistic way of looking at a challenge

PhotoKhan said:

SigmaChrome said:

PhotoKhan said:

...but that is not the point.

The point is that " straight-out-of-the-camera " Jpegs from any other DSLR camera manufacturer do not feature the consistent color casts all Sigma DSLR Foveon do.

Click to expand...

This is absolute hogwash! Jpegs straight out of the Nikon D90 and D7000, shot in sunlight often come " straight-out-of-the-camera ", with a strong yellow cast. It's ugly and horrible. This is why I always shoot RAW.

Click to expand...

Can I have links to consistent output from those mentioned cameras that show this?

...I mean consistent in the same way as when we access a page of multiple jpeg samples from an SD1 we immediately perceive the magenta/blue cast without further examination:

http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD1/sample-photo/index.html

Click to expand...

I'd agree that the above samples seem to have a colour cast, but of course they are all shot with pre production FW and software.

The newer images below, from Maro, do not seem to have any cast at all...They just look pretty natural to my eyes.

In fact, looking at samples from the Chinese website, linked to on another thread, the Nikon D3X seems to have a colour cast, in RAW files...Sort of cyan-ish, compared to the SD1's more neutral colours in RAW:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=38698966

These are not exactly amazing subjects, but the quality is there. Good to see some shots with some decent glass, like the 150 macro as well.

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D Cox said:

I am seeing on my monitor just a magenta cast, rather than "magenta/blue" - which would be violet or purple. It is present in almost all the samples so far.

Click to expand...

No. It is a Magenta + Blue color cast, giving (as you aptly mentioned) a purple overall range from pure blue to pure magenta.

Check out this shot:





The backdrop in the lower right corner is from a garden wall or something similar. It is very improbable it would be toned in purple/violet. It has an high probability of being a white, or "whitish" wall. Check out a 4x4 mapping made from random color samples from that area:





See the " Purple-on-the-Loose "?

D Cox said:

Anyway, I don't think it is serious. The SD1 is still in my opinion work-in-progress. Give them a year or two to get it right. The resolution is certainly there with a good lens.

Click to expand...

What...!?!?...You can't be serious...This is a commercial product, hitting the streets as we write, with a price tag of 6000+USD!

D Cox said:

We have to remember that Sigma have been making cameras for only about ten years, while Nikon, Canon and Leitz have many decades of experience.

Click to expand...

If we were talking about mechanics, I would agree with you...but this color cast business is purely optics and electronics.

The former has been Sigma's arena for God knows how long and the later had a starting shot that was pretty much the same for every brand out there. If we consider purely the Foveon technology, then, Sigma not only had the head start but is actually being dealing with that option for, what?, 9 years in a row now?

Give me a break...

PK

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************************************************************
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(PBase Supporter)

PhotoKhan said:

epsilon sigma taph said:

These images are not showing what this camera is capable of. Until you see the work of competant professionals it's pointless to comment.

Click to expand...

Why?

Competent photographer's (either professional or amateurs) can eradicate those color casts with their workflow (with more or less time and effort, depending on the consistency of the color casts throughout exposure solutions).

I know I can.

...but that is not the point.

The point is that " straight-out-of-the-camera " Jpegs from any other DSLR camera manufacturer do not feature the consistent color casts all Sigma DSLR Foveon do.

Click to expand...

You've missed my point entirely. I'm not talking about colour casts. As an SD14 owner l know all about them. But l'll tell you what, no other bayer camera, and l have several, can produce images that look as natural and pleasing to the eye as the ones it produces, even if l have to coax them out of it in post.

D Cox said:

The SD1 is still in my opinion work-in-progress. Give them a year or two to get it right.

Click to expand...

beta-testing for that horrible price? what a silly game, you can't be serious
they want the money? so "they" have to do their work and not the buyer's
--
cheers, Silvio

AdamT said:

Adam-T said:

, if Sigma thinks this is the "camera to end all cameras" and they must by the pricing, then there should be a "FREE" loaner on the way to DPR at this very moment. Right?

Click to expand...

They'd still not "get it", they'll compare the JPG engine at high ISOs against the frontrunners in this field and pronounce it a turd, it'd be lucky to get the test shots taken with a decent lens . DPR just didn't get the previous cameras so I don't think they'll get the SD1 either - and the hilarious price will only make matters worse . best they never see one IMO.

Click to expand...

Adam, there I go again being sarcastic, but I bet it will be along time before DPR gets that "FREE" loaner camera from Sigma. I'm guessing there will be as many bugs with the SD1 as there were cameras like the SD14. I just hope, for Sigma's well being, that those bugs in the SD1 are fixable or they're in real trouble. Of course there might be any bugs at all? JohnW

Adam-T said:

--
A Problem is only the pessimistic way of looking at a challenge

Click to expand...

I wrote in my article on X3 magazine; "Using the neutral color setting the colors are very true to life. The various other color settings are less true to life of course but provide good starting points for a pleasing picture." From what I see on Maro's shots mostly the standard, Standard color settings are used. Although they give more punch to the files I found the to have a (mostly) magenta colorcast. For more natural colors neutral is preferred. I also found the SD1 to be pretty sensitive to small changes/corrections in WB.
--
Bob van Ooik
V-studio
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epsilon sigma taph said:

You've missed my point entirely. I'm not talking about colour casts. As an SD14 owner l know all about them. But l'll tell you what, no other bayer camera, and l have several, can produce images that look as natural and pleasing to the eye as the ones it produces, even if l have to coax them out of it in post.

Click to expand...

Thank you for contributing to my (now) on-going study about this subject.

...So, in your case, it is not that you don't see them. It is just that you find them innocuous up to the point of saying that, in spite of them, you find the output from Foveon sensors (your SD14 and, now, the SD1) " ...natural and pleasing to the eye... ".

Thanks.

PK

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(PBase Supporter)

I think a big part that plays into which cameras get reviewed is based on user interest. Let's face it, there aren't a lot of users interested in buying an SD15. The SD1 has peaked interest due to it's leap forward in sensor design over the SD15.
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