The biggest shortcoming of M43 after long term use....

IMO a good DSLR such as the D700 or even my D300 is still superior to the GH2 in other ways: such as fast action, contrasty light, off-camera flash photography. I wouldn't dismiss them as being only good for "black cats in coal mine" photos. I'm shooting an outdoor portrait for a family this weekend and I'll be using my D300 because its raw files have so much more latitude for dealing with contrasty light.
As for latitude in dealing with contrasty light, well this is much more important to me. There's no doubt that you must be more careful with exposure as you can only get away with a slight (around 1/3 to 1/2 EV on average can be pulled back in RAW) overexposure if you want to preserve sky detail for instance. But on the other hand, I find no significant image degradation pulling shadows up by 2 stops which is generally enough for a balanced exposure -in other words, in the majority of shots, I can get the required result even without using ND filters etc. In a situation with extreme contrasts such as midday sun and hard shadows in a warmer climate than Scotland, even a D700 struggles but we're always told not to take photos in these conditions anyway unless you want to actually bring out the contrasts.
I think you pretty much took the words out of my mouth here. This is just about what I would have said if I had tried to develop to the point without awaiting Lars's response.

It appears to be the case that the GH2 (and perhaps other Panasonic cameras too) leaves less headroom in RAW for pulling back highlights than is usually the case. But as long as you are aware of it, this is not much of a problem, in my opinion, particularly since you have the histogram in the VF to help you out. You just have to be a bit more conservative with respect to exposure, and if I understand the DPR review of the GH2 correctly, the camera actually helps you along in that direction.

Pulling shadows up after having underexposed a bit to save the highlights is something I do more or less on a routine basis. But doing this by one to two stops at base ISO is not much of a problem even on my current Pentax K100D, which has about one stop less worth of DR than the GH2. And if I am not already at base ISO when I note that I am clipping the highlights, I would of course reduce the ISO rather than the exposure.

When it's more than a couple of stops, I usually let go of the shadows or the highlights (if the picture is at all worth rescuing) albeit not on account of excessive shadow noise. Rather, I do it because the original "mood" of the scene is otherwise lost and the entire picture turns into something I did not really set out to capture. I should add here that HDR is quite OK with me as a form of art, but then you are into "expressionism" more than "impressionism", and you surely want multiple exposures rather than a single one if you really want to do it well.
 
Anders W wrote:

. If I can catch the "white nights" of Scandinavia, which are soon "in season", I'll be quite satisfied. ;-)
According to your profile you're in Uppsala. My mum was from Göteborg but studied in Uppsala and still seems to have fond memories from there. I myself lived a couple of years in Värmland and so do speak Swedish but unfortunately don't seem to get time to go to Sweden anything like as much as I used to. Edinburgh sort of has white nights but they are more noticeable further north in the Highlands
Interesting! Must be those common Swedish roots that explain why we see eye to eye with regard to photography. ;-) Or is it that "nordic light"? You should get a fair amount of it in Edinburgh too. You're on about the same latitude as southern Sweden so no big difference.

As you might know, "White Nights" is the title of one of Dostoyevsky's (early) novels, about a young couple meeting each other on a bridge in St. Petersburg on a bright summer night. Now that's one place I'd like to go in the middle of June. I have been there in May (long ago, in the Soviet era), and it was dreamlike already at that point, with all the water, the bridges, the skyline. Well, Stockholm is not such a bad substitute but ...

By the way: Did you ever think of the fact that it's a blessing to live up north, as we do, at least from a purely photographic point of view. Very little of that ugly midday light, with the sun shining down from straight above your head. Long hours of beautiful morning and evening light and not a trace of haze on a sunny day. How's that for comfort on those long, cold winter nights. ;-)
 
It appears to be the case that the GH2 (and perhaps other Panasonic cameras too) leaves less headroom in RAW for pulling back highlights than is usually the case. But as long as you are aware of it, this is not much of a problem, in my opinion, particularly since you have the histogram in the VF to help you out. You just have to be a bit more conservative with respect to exposure, and if I understand the DPR review of the GH2 correctly, the camera actually helps you along in that direction.
Having the histogram in the EVF is, indeed, a very useful tool with the GH2 (and other m43 bodies). I frequently dial down the exp. comp. in order to preserve highlight details and in post processing, either raise the fill light or manually adjust the tone curve.

As far as DPR's comment about the GH2's "pathological" tendency to avoid overexposure, I don't find that to be true. Perhaps I'm just more picky about blown highlights. I will say, though, that it does seem to be less likely to blow highlights than my G1. In either case, both are an improvement over my P&S cameras in that regard, too.
Pulling shadows up after having underexposed a bit to save the highlights is something I do more or less on a routine basis. But doing this by one to two stops at base ISO is not much of a problem even on my current Pentax K100D, which has about one stop less worth of DR than the GH2. And if I am not already at base ISO when I note that I am clipping the highlights, I would of course reduce the ISO rather than the exposure.
Yes, that's how I work as well. Base ISO is distinctly better for providing more latitude for messing with the tone curve so when the light is contrasty, I try to shoot at as low an ISO as I can go. The thing is, during the winter months, when the days are shorter (and we're not on Daylight Savings time...or we're on it...I always get it confused) I am almost always shooting at ISO400-800, and often times higher than that. That's where the GH2's files become less forgiving. With my D300's files, they seem to have more range than the GH2, even at higher ISO's.
When it's more than a couple of stops, I usually let go of the shadows or the highlights (if the picture is at all worth rescuing) albeit not on account of excessive shadow noise.
I will typically lose the shadow detail and generally, I know this during exposure because of how much ev. comp. I'm dialling in to avoid blown highlights.

larsbc
 
FWIW, I have seen, in this forum, at least one post by an Oly user mentioning dust on his sensor. Regarding Nikons, my D300 has needed one, or maybe two, sensor cleanings over the 3 years I've owned it. And I'm a very casual lens changer (ie: I change lenses frequently without worrying about dust).
Well, even though there may have been some posts about sensor cleaning here too, they are certainly more infrequent than on other forums I have visited regularly in the past (Pentax, Nikon). As to personal experiences, my Pentax K100D needs more frequent cleaning than your D300 although I try to take special care when changing lenses. Usually, the blower suffices, but sometimes I have been forced to use swabs. OTOH, my Pentax is rather old by now and dust removal systems on DSLRs have probably improved in the meantime.
I can't recall whether your Pentax came before my D300 or not. As always, your mileage may vary, I guess. ;-) BTW when I've had dust on my D300's sensor, blowing it off never helped. I always had to wet clean. With my D70, blowing off the dust worked once, it was wet cleaning all the other times.

[snip]
Flash system: Yes, Panasonic should certainly add a system for off-camera flash control. Olympus m43 cameras with built-in flash do not have this problem.
Did an outdoor portrait session yesterday. The sky was overcast which made for soft light but we ended up shooting in a location where the background light was brighter than the light falling on the subjects. It was so convenient to be able to put a flash on a tripod to provide off-camera light, and trigger and adjust the output from my camera without any add-on pieces. Yesterday was the first time in months that I shot with my D300 and it made me appreciate the fact that I still had it.
Fast action: Yes, the AF-C speed as well as the frame rate of DSLRs like the D300 and D700 are better than those of the GH2. On the other hand, this may at least partly be a matter of which error margins you are ready to tolerate. The accuracy of the PDAF system of all but the most expensive DSLRs is considerably lower than that of the GH2 (and other mirrorless cameras), and it is of course easier to do things fast if you don't do them all that well.
In my experience, the only consistent AF accuracy weakness I've noticed is when shooting fairly close up, wide open, with short focal lengths. I never got consistently satisfactorily sharp images under these conditions with my 24/2.8 or 35/2. My 35/1.8, does deliver under these circumstances, though. So yes, I've definitely noticed a difference under that scenario where the CD-AF system is superior. I'm not sure which I would pick if I had to choose one over the other.
Dynamic range: Although I am likely to agree with you to at least some extent, I'd like to know more about the basis for your reasoning before going into detail. Are you talking about the extra headroom left in RAW (which is a matter of camera firmware only), about actual DR at base ISO, or about actual DR at higher ISOs?
I'm talking about all those aspects. Yes, the highlight recovery is a big one, but I find that I can also pull more out of the shadows, and there also seems to be more latitude at higher ISOs. BTW I replied to your other post (a few below this one) regarding dynamic range, too. So if you want we can continue talking about this there.

larsbc
 
Thanks for your very reasonable and informative answers, Lars. It is very useful to me, and I guess others too, to get this type of response from someone who has actually played with these different models and camera types and is capable of observing and comparing them with a critical as well as attentive eye.
larsbc wrote:

Yes, that's how I work as well. Base ISO is distinctly better for providing more latitude for messing with the tone curve so when the light is contrasty, I try to shoot at as low an ISO as I can go. The thing is, during the winter months, when the days are shorter (and we're not on Daylight Savings time...or we're on it...I always get it confused) I am almost always shooting at ISO400-800, and often times higher than that. That's where the GH2's files become less forgiving. With my D300's files, they seem to have more range than the GH2, even at higher ISO's.
OK. I mostly do this at base ISO, although it is certainly as dark in the winter here in Sweden as in Vancouver. When you get into higher ISOs, I fully understand that you run into greater trouble. However, I'd be a bit surprised if the GH2 is actually inferior to the D300 in this department. If you look at the DxOMark dynamic range curve of the two cameras, you will see that they have exactly the same DR at 400-800 ISO. However, the DxO figures are for "real" as opposed to nominal ISOs and for a normalized resolution of 8 MP. The nominal ISOs of the D300 are a bit on the high side and if, in addition, you compare the D300 12 MP files with the GH2 16 MP files at 100% you are apt to see a difference in shadow noise approaching 1 EV. So this might possibly be the explanation. In comparison with the D700, both the GH2 and the D300 would lose out as expected by a margin of 1 to 1.5 EV.
I can't recall whether your Pentax came before my D300 or not. As always, your mileage may vary, I guess. ;-) BTW when I've had dust on my D300's sensor, blowing it off never helped. I always had to wet clean. With my D70, blowing off the dust worked once, it was wet cleaning all the other times.
My Pentax is even older than your D300 but slightly younger than the D70. Perhaps it is one of the last cams with "sticky" sensors. ;-)
In my experience, the only consistent AF accuracy weakness I've noticed is when shooting fairly close up, wide open, with short focal lengths. I never got consistently satisfactorily sharp images under these conditions with my 24/2.8 or 35/2. My 35/1.8, does deliver under these circumstances, though. So yes, I've definitely noticed a difference under that scenario where the CD-AF system is superior. I'm not sure which I would pick if I had to choose one over the other.
Well, AF accuracy is certainly one area where I am less than perfectly happy with my Pentax. And judging by the results provided by optycne.pl, which is the only review site I know of that actually tests AF accuracy, this is a problem common to all but the very best, biggest, heaviest and most expensive DSLRs. As expected, the D300 does better in this regard than many others, but as you can see here (under the headline "Autofocus"), it still cannot match the GH2 with respect to accuracy:

http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.optyczne.pl%2F60.3-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D300_U%25C5%25BCytkowanie.html

http://translate.google.se/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.optyczne.pl%2F149.3-Test_aparatu-Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-GH2_U%C5%BCytkowanie_i_ergonomia.html&sl=pl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
 
Hey

I have a G2 and a DSLR after some use I have a few comments to the biggest short comings that still have not been adressed.

Now while its a very portable package and great that you can potentially buy in to several types of houses I still think lack of lenses is a great issue.

Especially if you want to do creative work with DOF. Now if you do macro and closeups you can get all the DOF you want, but if you go to just 1,5 m distance the images starts to look like PS material.

To me its a BIG issue that there is no 40-50 mm F1.4 mm lense with AF and possibly OIS for portraits and more. Now I have used a 50 mm nikkor 1.4 for this, BUT the lack of AF starts to be annoying. Yep I have the 20 mm, even with 1.7 you have to be very close to the subject to get any creative DOF.

The second problem is viewfinder blackout. Now this might be much better in the GH2 as is speed in general and high iso performance. But in a G2 its impossible to shoot "dynamic" and keep contact with the subject. The viewfinder blackout is just tooooo long.

I sure hope some of the alternative lense producers soon put some interesting alternatives on the market, it would make it easier to stick to the platform.
--When I first tried out the G1 the thing I liked least was the long EVF backout after taking a picture, but I thought the G2 was supposed to have solved that problem? Maybe you are trying to use the maximum burst mode of 3fps? Pany and users say the blackout is greatly reduced if you use the medium burst mode of 2.5 fps rather than 3 fps. As others noted turn off the live view LCD display for faster operation in your EVF?

As for frustration of getting shallow DOF for portraits etc. When using m4/3 you can get similar effect by going longer telephoto not shorter. Just take a look at the examples posted on this forum by people using the 100-300 lens for this purpose. With the later lens inspite of relatively slow lens speed the shallow DOF is there and you can get more candid pictures from a distance rather than pocking a lens so close to someones face! Whether used for bird photography or portraits equally good. Note 600mm (35mm equiv) on a m4/3 at F5.6 is the same DOF as a FF 75mm at F2? I would suggest that using a FF legacy 100/f2-2.5 lens with adapter would also give you good DOF results for portrait use maybe on a m4/3?
 
I think the short coming is that there are less than a handfull of lenses F2.8 and faster
 
As for frustration of getting shallow DOF for portraits etc. When using m4/3 you can get similar effect by going longer telephoto not shorter. Just take a look at the examples posted on this forum by people using the 100-300 lens for this purpose. With the later lens inspite of relatively slow lens speed the shallow DOF is there and you can get more candid pictures from a distance rather than pocking a lens so close to someones face! Whether used for bird photography or portraits equally good. Note 600mm (35mm equiv) on a m4/3 at F5.6 is the same DOF as a FF 75mm at F2? I would suggest that using a FF legacy 100/f2-2.5 lens with adapter would also give you good DOF results for portrait use maybe on a m4/3?
Nah. This is not really true. Given a certain sensor size and aperture, for example m43 and f/5.6, you will have exactly the same DOF if you shoot a subject at 2 meters with a 50 mm lens as if you shoot the same subject at 4 meters with a 100 mm lens. In other words, DOF does not vary with the focal length as long as the rate of magnification is the same.

You can check it for yourself here if you want:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

However, a longer focal length can enhance the impression of background blur, not because the background is more out of focus but because it is magnified to a greater extent. You might find the explanation here, under the heading "Background blur", useful:

http://toothwalker.org/optics/dof.html
 
Anders W wrote:
[snip]
OK. I mostly do this at base ISO, although it is certainly as dark in the winter here in Sweden as in Vancouver. When you get into higher ISOs, I fully understand that you run into greater trouble. However, I'd be a bit surprised if the GH2 is actually inferior to the D300 in this department. If you look at the DxOMark dynamic range curve of the two cameras, you will see that they have exactly the same DR at 400-800 ISO. However, the DxO figures are for "real" as opposed to nominal ISOs and for a normalized resolution of 8 MP. The nominal ISOs of the D300 are a bit on the high side and if, in addition, you compare the D300 12 MP files with the GH2 16 MP files at 100% you are apt to see a difference in shadow noise approaching 1 EV. So this might possibly be the explanation.
Yes, perhaps. To be honest, I haven't done any side-by-side comparisons so perhaps this is just a reflection of how I use the cameras (metering/exposure differences) plus the fact that I am not accounting for any ISO differences. All I can tell you for sure is that blown highlights are more an issue with my GH2 than my D300, and my GH2 doesn't seem to be any better and bringing up shadow detail (ie: it doesn't appear to have more room to recover if I underexpose to protect highlights) so, based on my empirical but clearly not laboratory-type testing, the two cameras are not producing equivalent files when it comes to raw processing.

However, the points you made have made me wonder if perhaps I should explore underexposure with the GH2 more closely.

Do you have any suggestions for a fairly simple dynamic range comparison that I could do? I was thinking of perhaps taking an incident meter reading, set both cameras to that setting, and think bracket + - 1-stop, and then messing with each of the camera's 3 files, to get the most detail, then comparing the best result from each camera. Geez...even that seems like a lot of work. ;-)

[snip]
Well, AF accuracy is certainly one area where I am less than perfectly happy with my Pentax. And judging by the results provided by optycne.pl, which is the only review site I know of that actually tests AF accuracy, this is a problem common to all but the very best, biggest, heaviest and most expensive DSLRs. As expected, the D300 does better in this regard than many others, but as you can see here (under the headline "Autofocus"), it still cannot match the GH2 with respect to accuracy:

http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.optyczne.pl%2F60.3-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D300_U%25C5%25BCytkowanie.html

http://translate.google.se/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.optyczne.pl%2F149.3-Test_aparatu-Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-GH2_U%C5%BCytkowanie_i_ergonomia.html&sl=pl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
Interesting. What are they graphing in those AF performance charts? I don't know what is on the X and Y axes.

larsbc
 
Anders W wrote:
[snip]
However, a longer focal length can enhance the impression of background blur, not because the background is more out of focus but because it is magnified to a greater extent.
Wow, I never heard of that explanation before but it makes a lot of sense. So the end result is essentially the same (greater sense or impression of blur) but, technically, it's not any more out of focus.

I wonder if anyone has considered an alternative DOF formula to account for that? I mean, the DOF calculation is based on an assumed print size as well, isn't it?

larsbc
 
As for frustration of getting shallow DOF for portraits etc. When using m4/3 you can get similar effect by going longer telephoto not shorter. Just take a look at the examples posted on this forum by people using the 100-300 lens for this purpose. With the later lens inspite of relatively slow lens speed the shallow DOF is there and you can get more candid pictures from a distance rather than pocking a lens so close to someones face! Whether used for bird photography or portraits equally good. Note 600mm (35mm equiv) on a m4/3 at F5.6 is the same DOF as a FF 75mm at F2? I would suggest that using a FF legacy 100/f2-2.5 lens with adapter would also give you good DOF results for portrait use maybe on a m4/3?
Nah. This is not really true. Given a certain sensor size and aperture, for example m43 and f/5.6, you will have exactly the same DOF if you shoot a subject at 2 meters with a 50 mm lens as if you shoot the same subject at 4 meters with a 100 mm lens. In other words, DOF does not vary with the focal length as long as the rate of magnification is the same.

You can check it for yourself here if you want:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

However, a longer focal length can enhance the impression of background blur, not because the background is more out of focus but because it is magnified to a greater extent. You might find the explanation here, under the heading "Background blur", useful:

http://toothwalker.org/optics/dof.html
--NOWHERE did I say say or imply the rate of magnification would be the same. In fact from the comparison I made the rate of magnifcation using the 100-300 lens would be up to 4 times that of the FF 75mm with which I was comparing! However you get the desired background out of focus is irrelevant whether obtained by software, use of fast lens, or use of a longer lens in whatever format as long as you like the result in my opinion.

Also note from your explanation that clearly I was not comparing with using the same sensor as the OP was illustrating what he didn't like about M43 compared to larger sensor cameras.
 
Do you have any suggestions for a fairly simple dynamic range comparison that I could do? I was thinking of perhaps taking an incident meter reading, set both cameras to that setting, and think bracket + - 1-stop, and then messing with each of the camera's 3 files, to get the most detail, then comparing the best result from each camera. Geez...even that seems like a lot of work. ;-)
Oh, I can think of many. ;-) But I think I would go about it as follows: I'd first try to calibrate the ISO settings of the two cameras by shooting a white wall or the like at the same exposure. You would start at the same ISO on both cameras and then change it on one of them until you reach the same level of brightness. Since difference in lens transmission values (f-stops are nominal too) is another potential source of error, you should use the same lens on both cameras (I trust you have an m43 adapter for your Nikon lenses), or, even better, two different lenses which you already know to have identical transmission, or which you can calibrate in the same way as with the ISOs, and which, in addition will give you about the same FOVs on the two cameras (which simplifies things in the field later on). Of course you should choose an aperture where vignetting is not a problem.

Once you are done calibrating, you shoot a contrasty scene with both cameras at the same real ISO (somewhere around the 400-800 mark), and the same real exposure (taking into account any difference in lens transmission values). Underexpose so as to save the highlights. You may want to try two or three different levels of underexposure to have enough to play with later on.

Then choose the pair of shots that looks most representative of what you ordinarily get/do and PP them in the same way. If you have done your calibration work right, this should suffice to reach identical brightness in the shadows as well as the highlights. Finally look at the shadow noise to see how much of a difference there is. Make sure you do this at identical display size, rather than at 100 percent for both cameras since the latter method will bias the results against the GH2.

One way of simplifying the whole thing is to simply shoot a shadowy scene at the same real ISO and the same real exposure and just look at the noise level. It's that level which will ultimately determine how much you can lift the shadows.
Well, AF accuracy is certainly one area where I am less than perfectly happy with my Pentax. And judging by the results provided by optycne.pl, which is the only review site I know of that actually tests AF accuracy, this is a problem common to all but the very best, biggest, heaviest and most expensive DSLRs. As expected, the D300 does better in this regard than many others, but as you can see here (under the headline "Autofocus"), it still cannot match the GH2 with respect to accuracy:

http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.optyczne.pl%2F60.3-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D300_U%25C5%25BCytkowanie.html

http://translate.google.se/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.optyczne.pl%2F149.3-Test_aparatu-Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-GH2_U%C5%BCytkowanie_i_ergonomia.html&sl=pl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
Interesting. What are they graphing in those AF performance charts? I don't know what is on the X and Y axes.
The charts show the frequency distribution across 40 test shots. The leftmost bar shows the number of shots that are essentially perfect with regard to accuracy (less than 1.5% percent deviation from that shot in the series which shows the highest resolution). Bars further to the right show the number of shots that deviate from the ideal. The further to the right the bar is, the greater the deviation from the ideal.

As you can see, 35 out of 40 shots (87.5 %) end up in the leftmost bar for the GH2. For the D300, the corresponding result is 7 out of 40 (23.3 %). Still, the D300 does pretty well compared to most DSLRs I have looked at since most of the remaining shots are in the first two bars to the right of the leftmost one. Many cameras show a considerably greater spread.
 
David --

i should have been more clear: i run these lenses against the equv Panny kit lenses, which would be (in my case) the 14-45 and 45-200. I generally expect them to be "good" in the center, so the test is mostly the corners.

I'm only going to bother with MF for static subjects, so really expect a close to uniform field; if a lens is worse than the kit at equal apertures -- like my 24mm f2.8 -- than i really have no use for it; if it is comparable and the wider apertures usable, then maybe.

I have four Nikkor 50s: f1.4, f1.8 AIS; f1.8 E (early, not MC'ed); and 55mm f3.5 micro. The latter is the star here . . . sorry about the speed. Don't ask why i have four redundant Nikkor MF lenses . . .

You are correct, the 75-150mm f3.5 E is hard to find. I'm looking forward to trying it.

-- gary ray

--

Semi-professional in early 1970s; just a putzer since then. interests: historical sites, virginia, motorcycle racing. A nikon user more by habit than choice; still, nikon seems to work well for me.
 
By the way: Did you ever think of the fact that it's a blessing to live up north, as we do, at least from a purely photographic point of view. Very little of that ugly midday light, with the sun shining down from straight above your head. Long hours of beautiful morning and evening light and not a trace of haze on a sunny day. How's that for comfort on those long, cold winter nights. ;-)
In my experience, the further north you go, the more beautiful and luminous the light becomes --and I've been up to Abisko. The western highlands in Scotland are famous for the ever changing and interesting light which can make for stunning photos --that is of course when it doesn't simply rain all day.
 
of course legacy lenses only show the central portion so if you have a Panny equivalent with mediocre corners, then the legacy lens can have an advantage, not that the 50 or 105 have anything to hide, being impeccable in the corners in general. I can certainly see a difference between them and the 45-200 at equivalent lengths but it's also true that very often pixel peeping is required and that the kit zooms are in fact pretty good for what they are, certainly better than most I have used before from other manufacturers. After all, when I decided to make the switch away from Nikon to m43, initially I only had the 14-45 and the G1. The decision to switch was really made on the basis that the camera itself would be upgraded as soon as an improved sensor was in place. The G1 on clearance after all, cost peanuts. I was afraid of holding on to my D700 as I thought the price would soon plummet but in fact this has yet to happen to a major degree. Of course the GH2 isn't perfect but the improvements means I don't feel seriously compromised.
David --

i should have been more clear: i run these lenses against the equv Panny kit lenses, which would be (in my case) the 14-45 and 45-200. I generally expect them to be "good" in the center, so the test is mostly the corners.

I'm only going to bother with MF for static subjects, so really expect a close to uniform field; if a lens is worse than the kit at equal apertures -- like my 24mm f2.8 -- than i really have no use for it; if it is comparable and the wider apertures usable, then maybe.

I have four Nikkor 50s: f1.4, f1.8 AIS; f1.8 E (early, not MC'ed); and 55mm f3.5 micro. The latter is the star here . . . sorry about the speed. Don't ask why i have four redundant Nikkor MF lenses . . .

You are correct, the 75-150mm f3.5 E is hard to find. I'm looking forward to trying it.

-- gary ray

--

Semi-professional in early 1970s; just a putzer since then. interests: historical sites, virginia, motorcycle racing. A nikon user more by habit than choice; still, nikon seems to work well for me.
 
Dave --

I think you and i agree on all points. The 14-45, in particular, is a stunning optic within its parameters and may just be the best kit lens ever. So finding a justifiable niche for my older glass is that much harder. The 45-200 is a bit less so -- but still very good -- up to 150, beyond that it declines; at least that is my example.

Do recall, though, that the pixel pitch of even your 12 meg G1 @ 4.3 microns is greater than that of the D7000 (Nikon's highest density dSLR) @ 4.7 microns.

The GH2's pitch is 3.6 microns!

The point is, all of these sensors -- to exploit them -- truly require excellent optics. (All these figures from the DXOMark info page.)

As Oscar Barnack realized a century ago, exploiting miniature photography mandates excellent optics.

-- gary ray

--

Semi-professional in early 1970s; just a putzer since then. interests: historical sites, virginia, motorcycle racing. A nikon user more by habit than choice; still, nikon seems to work well for me.
 
As for frustration of getting shallow DOF for portraits etc. When using m4/3 you can get similar effect by going longer telephoto not shorter. Just take a look at the examples posted on this forum by people using the 100-300 lens for this purpose. With the later lens inspite of relatively slow lens speed the shallow DOF is there and you can get more candid pictures from a distance rather than pocking a lens so close to someones face! Whether used for bird photography or portraits equally good. Note 600mm (35mm equiv) on a m4/3 at F5.6 is the same DOF as a FF 75mm at F2? I would suggest that using a FF legacy 100/f2-2.5 lens with adapter would also give you good DOF results for portrait use maybe on a m4/3?
Nah. This is not really true. Given a certain sensor size and aperture, for example m43 and f/5.6, you will have exactly the same DOF if you shoot a subject at 2 meters with a 50 mm lens as if you shoot the same subject at 4 meters with a 100 mm lens. In other words, DOF does not vary with the focal length as long as the rate of magnification is the same.

You can check it for yourself here if you want:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

However, a longer focal length can enhance the impression of background blur, not because the background is more out of focus but because it is magnified to a greater extent. You might find the explanation here, under the heading "Background blur", useful:

http://toothwalker.org/optics/dof.html
--NOWHERE did I say say or imply the rate of magnification would be the same. In fact from the comparison I made the rate of magnifcation using the 100-300 lens would be up to 4 times that of the FF 75mm with which I was comparing! However you get the desired background out of focus is irrelevant whether obtained by software, use of fast lens, or use of a longer lens in whatever format as long as you like the result in my opinion.
You evidently said:

"With the later lens [100-300] inspite of relatively slow lens speed the shallow DOF is there and you can get more candid pictures from a distance rather than pocking a lens so close to someones face!"

So clearly you are comparing a lens with long focal length used from a long distance with a lens with short focal length used from a short distance, which certainly implies that you are trying to equalize the rate of magnification. And if magnification is not the same, you might just as well have said: "Just increase the rate of magnification, by going closer or puttting on a longer lens, even if it means that you cut the portrait in half." How much of a solution is that?
Also note from your explanation that clearly I was not comparing with using the same sensor as the OP was illustrating what he didn't like about M43 compared to larger sensor cameras.
I did note that you as well as the OP were discussing differences between sensors. But you were also discussing differences between focal lengths within a certain sensor format, suggesting that the OPs problem might be solved by using lenses with longer focal lengths. And as I hope you have noted, my response focused on the validity of that suggestion.
 
However, a longer focal length can enhance the impression of background blur, not because the background is more out of focus but because it is magnified to a greater extent.
Wow, I never heard of that explanation before but it makes a lot of sense. So the end result is essentially the same (greater sense or impression of blur) but, technically, it's not any more out of focus.
Yes, it's a rather important observation I think. When people are saying that they want shallow DOF, they in fact usually mean that they want a lot of background blur. And the two are not quite the same thing. For the DOF, given a certain sensor size, only the aperture and the rate of magnification matters (within certain limits, see below). But as far as the absolute amount of background blur is concerned, it helps to put on a longer lens and go farther away (if you can, which may not always be the case ;-)).
I wonder if anyone has considered an alternative DOF formula to account for that? I mean, the DOF calculation is based on an assumed print size as well, isn't it?
Yes, DOF is based on a certain print size, which can then be translated into an acceptable "circle of confusion" (CoC) for a given sensor. But the entire notion of DOF is of course a simplification. Things are perfectly sharp only at one specific distance and inreasingly unsharp as soon as you deviate a single mm from that distance.

Also, if you keep reading the source I linked too (which does a very good job of explaining these things), you will see that at the limit (when the hyperfocal distance is sufficiently small relative to the subject distance), the standard rule I cited above (that only the rate of magnification and the aperture matter with regard to DOF) breaks down.
 
--NOWHERE did I say say or imply the rate of magnification would be the same. In fact from the comparison I made the rate of magnifcation using the 100-300 lens would be up to 4 times that of the FF 75mm with which I was comparing! However you get the desired background out of focus is irrelevant whether obtained by software, use of fast lens, or use of a longer lens in whatever format as long as you like the result in my opinion.
You evidently said:

"With the later lens [100-300] inspite of relatively slow lens speed the shallow DOF is there and you can get more candid pictures from a distance rather than pocking a lens so close to someones face!"

So clearly you are comparing a lens with long focal length used from a long distance with a lens with short focal length used from a short distance, which certainly implies that you are trying to equalize the rate of magnification. And if magnification is not the same, you might just as well have said: "Just increase the rate of magnification, by going closer or puttting on a longer lens, even if it means that you cut the portrait in half." How much of a solution is that?
Also note from your explanation that clearly I was not comparing with using the same sensor as the OP was illustrating what he didn't like about M43 compared to larger sensor cameras.
I did note that you as well as the OP were discussing differences between sensors. But you were also discussing differences between focal lengths within a certain sensor format, suggesting that the OPs problem might be solved by using lenses with longer focal lengths. And as I hope you have noted, my response focused on the validity of that suggestion.
Firstly, I absolutely agree with all you say, Anders. And it is important to keep repeating this stuff, as there's so much nonsense written about 'equivalent focal lengths'.

But I'd like to take one further step in clarification. We agree that (for less than 'hyperfocal distances')...

The depth of field is entirely dependent on the magnification (of the final image) and the aperture, regardless of sensor size!

However sensor size makes a difference; in that a larger sensor enables closer focussing distances for a given subject with the result that the background is relatively further away and thus more blurred .

The other complication is that people use DoF tables/calculators without realising that the sensor size might affect the coc they use (which in turn is related to the desired magnification!)

;-(

Mike
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Mike Davis
Photographing the public for over 50 years
http://www.flickr.com/photos/watchman
 
Firstly, I absolutely agree with all you say, Anders. And it is important to keep repeating this stuff, as there's so much nonsense written about 'equivalent focal lengths'.
It seems to be necessary, yes. ;-)
However sensor size makes a difference; in that a larger sensor enables closer focussing distances for a given subject with the result that the background is relatively further away and thus more blurred .
Not quite sure I follow your reasoning here, although that may merely be due to slow thinking on my part. But could you please develop/exemplify what you have in mind.
The other complication is that people use DoF tables/calculators without realising that the sensor size might affect the coc they use (which in turn is related to the desired magnification!)
That seems to be true as well. Here's an illustration from some minutes ago:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=38211351
 

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