Why are the leaked G2 specs creating a downer?

Why are the leaked G2 specs creating a downer? I've been considering the new T2i as it seems to offer a lot on a compact package. My main alternate choice is a Panasonic. I looked at the G1 and liked the form, but wanted video also. I tried the Gh2 and I liked it but the cost is too high. The leaked G2 seems like it night be a good option, but many people seem to be put off by the leaked specs. As a potential first time Four Thirds buyer what should I consider in contrast to the T2I?
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/rogues-gallery/

eyeonwinnipeg said:

Why are the leaked G2 specs creating a downer? I've been considering the new T2i as it seems to offer a lot on a compact package. My main alternate choice is a Panasonic. I looked at the G1 and liked the form, but wanted video also. I tried the Gh2 and I liked it but the cost is too high. The leaked G2 seems like it night be a good option, but many people seem to be put off by the leaked specs. As a potential first time Four Thirds buyer what should I consider in contrast to the T2I?
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Size, live view, viewfinder, available optical quality, size... Ergonomics. G2 actually has great ergo. Think about it. You shoot in manual or creative, all of a sudden you see something different, click iA button and shoot. Then get back to whatever you were shooting before. I'd wish my GH1 would have this.

Consider whatever best meets your needs. Don't freak out at some of the negativity. Hundreds of people visit these forums and there are hundreds of opinion, some positive, some negative. I guess it is human nature to feed on the negative for some reason.

I have my GH1 and don't plan on another body soon, so really not paying attention to all of that. If you look closely you will also see that much of the "downer" comments are repeated in the same threads by the same people. so relax, compare the final specs then the come out, if you can handle the cameras you are considering and then buy what best meets your needs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are no perfect cameras, only better photographers. In the end it is always the photographer that matters the most, not the equipment. And no two of us will ever agree on everything.

--
David
Galleries: http://dwrobinson.zenfolio.com
Blog: http://web.me.com/brdavid

I am in the exact same boat - I do a lot of video editing and have been very happy with a 4 year old 3-CCD Panasonic MiniDV camcorder. Mostly family and travel, with the occasional work related training videos for our overseas subsidiary.

What I am finding out is:

• Whether T2i or GH1, you are seriously limited to the length of video you can shoot thanks to recording on SD card.
• Panasonic offers some nice glass, yet if you spend the money, Canon's is just as nice (ex: 7-14).
• size wise the difference is trivial between a GH-1 and a T2i
• Canon offers LOTS of alternatives and 3rd party lenses - to my defense, I can use the Panasonic EPP for decent discounts so that is not as much an issue)
• if it comes to getting a GH-1 and a second lens, say, the 7-14, the cost becomes suspiciously close to that of a T2i and a nice hard drive HD camcorder . I realize the lens selection is not the same, but said dedicated hard drive camcorder can do a few things too.

The only issue so far in Panasonic's favor as far as I can tell has been that the last few Canons I've looked have not impressed me with their build quality and ease of use. The GH-1 has.

In fact I am rethinking the whole video+DSLR - as much as I would like to buy one device, there's no SD Card in the world that will allow me to record 1 hour in HD. A device like the HDC-HS250K is pretty inexpensive, and one of these + a T2i with the expected 2 lens kit should come at the same cost as a GH-1 + the 7-14. Again, I know it's an apples to oranges functionality lens wise (you basically trade the 7-14 for the camcorder with the expectation that one would get more use out of two more 'general purpose' devices rather than one an a relatively 'specialized' lens like the 7-14), but to those of us who are 'just shooting' it's a big 'hmmm' moment.

Turbo 46032 said:

I am in the exact same boat - I do a lot of video editing and have been very happy with a 4 year old 3-CCD Panasonic MiniDV camcorder. Mostly family and travel, with the occasional work related training videos for our overseas subsidiary.

What I am finding out is:

• Whether T2i or GH1, you are seriously limited to the length of video you can shoot thanks to recording on SD card.
• Panasonic offers some nice glass, yet if you spend the money, Canon's is just as nice (ex: 7-14).
• size wise the difference is trivial between a GH-1 and a T2i
• Canon offers LOTS of alternatives and 3rd party lenses - to my defense, I can use the Panasonic EPP for decent discounts so that is not as much an issue)
• if it comes to getting a GH-1 and a second lens, say, the 7-14, the cost becomes suspiciously close to that of a T2i and a nice hard drive HD camcorder . I realize the lens selection is not the same, but said dedicated hard drive camcorder can do a few things too.

The only issue so far in Panasonic's favor as far as I can tell has been that the last few Canons I've looked have not impressed me with their build quality and ease of use. The GH-1 has.

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That is true, and build quality is important, I feel the same about this

Turbo 46032 said:

In fact I am rethinking the whole video+DSLR - as much as I would like to buy one device, there's no SD Card in the world that will allow me to record 1 hour in HD. A device like the HDC-HS250K is pretty inexpensive, and one of these + a T2i with the expected 2 lens kit should come at the same cost as a GH-1 + the 7-14. Again, I know it's an apples to oranges functionality lens wise (you basically trade the 7-14 for the camcorder with the expectation that one would get more use out of two more 'general purpose' devices rather than one an a relatively 'specialized' lens like the 7-14), but to those of us who are 'just shooting' it's a big 'hmmm' moment.

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--
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication

• http://aleo-photo.org

• http://blog.aleo-photo.org

eyeonwinnipeg said:

Why are the leaked G2 specs creating a downer? I've been considering the new T2i as it seems to offer a lot on a compact package. My main alternate choice is a Panasonic. I looked at the G1 and liked the form, but wanted video also. I tried the Gh2 and I liked it but the cost is too high. The leaked G2 seems like it night be a good option, but many people seem to be put off by the leaked specs. As a potential first time Four Thirds buyer what should I consider in contrast to the T2I?
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rogues-gallery/

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Well, I was going to advice you to buy the Panasonic Lumix model you prefer, but wait a bit until Panasonic launch the new cameras for real, specs may be more accurate, and then maybe Dpreview has a hands on already prepared to show us, and other sites for sure will bring you more information

• And the prices of the G1 GH1 and GF1 will be better after the launch of the new ones

--
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication

• http://aleo-photo.org

• http://blog.aleo-photo.org

eyeonwinnipeg said:

Why are the leaked G2 specs creating a downer?

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Its more an evolution rather than a revolution. Canon has suffered from the same "problem" as with most conservative Japanese tech companies.

eyeonwinnipeg184457 said:

As a potential first time Four Thirds buyer what should I consider in contrast to the T2I?

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G2 sounds good. Not sure how small the (new!) kit lens will be, but I can tell you having owned them all, the current G1 + 14-45 destroys the Canon Rebel package in size, features, and build quality. Not so much the camera itself, but critically the kit lens is remarkably compact, silent focus, and solid as heck. You don't need to upgrade, they haven't included the lens as a "tease." Canon's 18-55IS in contrast is a PITA to work with if you want to use a polarizer, has no optical correction built into the imaging pipeline, and forget about manual focus rotating the barrel. I am not sure how easy video could be on the newest 550D rig (compared to the G2, mostly because of the non-optimized EF mount and lenses) but I will soon find out for myself. The main advantage for Canon is a higher resolution screen (though non-articulated), tracking focus for sports, and of course the 1920x1080 video option. File sizes are huge though (18MP @ "14-bit" for ~ 25MB per RAW as compared to 12MP @ 12-bit for ~ 15MB per G1/GF1/GH1 RAW) and that doesn't get you much except processing overhead unless you are printing A3+ or cropping the hell out of your shots (in which case, get a TC or a longer lens!).

If you are going to upgrade Canon beyond the kit lens to more exotic optics, the EF route is worth a look. If you want to just get the camera kit "and be done with it" the G2 has most of the advantage... especially if you consider the fact there is an excellent fast normal prime designed for the system which fits in a shirt pocket (none for Canon south of the massive $1500 35/1.4L, or the still bulky Sigma 30/1.4), and serious UWA (7-14... unmatched in FOV on Canon EF-S, unless you consider the new, slow, Sigma 8-16 about to be released).

--
-CW

よしよし、今日も生きのいい魂が手に入ったな

Some people on the boards are very serious photogs who want pro or semi pro cameras. It's just mild disappointment, perhaps coupled with a little exaggerated disappointment (or lack of happy pills).

If the price points are right, then this seems like a good release. I expect the sensor to be better and improved ergo. Seems fine. I too would like to see a higher end body, but Panny and Oly are wise to grab market share.

--
SLOtographer
Panasonic G1, Canon S90

SLOtographer said:

Some people on the boards are very serious photogs who want pro or semi pro cameras. It's just mild disappointment, perhaps coupled with a little exaggerated disappointment (or lack of happy pills).

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Yes, that just about sums it up. I would have preferred a semi professional model.

But (so far) it seems that we got what I expected. Higher end bodies will likely be released just prior to Photokina in September.

Member said:

If the price points are right, then this seems like a good release. I expect the sensor to be better and improved ergo.

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I would certainly hope that is the case and that Panasonic hasn't simply used the same sensor while re-labeling the ISO sensitivity and increasing NR.

Member said:

Seems fine. I too would like to see a higher end body, but Panny and Oly are wise to grab market share.

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Yes, it does make sense, especially considering the aggressive pricing of Samsung's NX10 kit.

--
Björn

http://www.bmupix.com

People on this forum already have m3/4s cameras, and will only be excited if Panasonic introduce cameras with much much better specification than what they already have. I think that Panasonic is doing the right thing by making these G1 upgrades, because they will bring more people to the m4/3s system. That is Panasonic's strategy with these new cameras, and it is a clever one. I honestly also believe that G2 and G10 will offer better price/performance, which is absolutely necessary to keep ahead of Samsung's NX-system.

eyeonwinnipeg said:

Why are the leaked G2 specs creating a downer?
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Because these disappointed posts come from folks who have and love their µ4/3 and hope for great new developments in technology that will bring major improvements NOW.

We're spoilt, you know. Within a year and a half we had three models, a great G1, a serious upgrade in the GH1, and then the GF1 with it's terrific form factor and the marvellous 20mm lens. That's a lot of upgrades or improvements in such a short period of time. Giant leaps for photographerkind. So, with the GF1 being about a half year "old" by now, everybody is hoping for next giant leaps and new stunning developments. Big disappointment then, when the leap promises to be of human measure and the development maybe more market-oriented than a major technological innovation.

Edit: oh dear, doubling up with the previous post - shows how much time it to write this... :-/

Aleo Veuliah said:

Aleo Veuliah said:

The only issue so far in Panasonic's favor as far as I can tell has been that the last few Canons I've looked have not impressed me with their build quality and ease of use. The GH-1 has.

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That is true, and build quality is important, I feel the same about this

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Maybe you should reflect a bit on that statement. One of the issues that has put me off getting a GH1, and why I was waiting to see what the successors were like, and therefore why I was a bit disappointed that the newer cameras use the same basic form - is issues like like the lugs coming off (not to mention the paint quickly coming off buttons etc).
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=34626078
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=34157089
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=34536858

I am not trying to score points and I am just a bit concerned about what is self-evidently a very serious problem and Pansonic's lacklustre response to this problem, and their complete failure to even acknowledge that this problem exists. I could point you to numerous other threads on this forum and many other forums about these issues. Given that so many users have reported these problems is a clear indication that these are basic design flaws, and not just isolated quality control issues.

Let me put it bluntly - I am a bit concerned about paying a premium price for a camera that has a low end camera robustness. I genuinely could not use a camera where I constantly worried that if I hung it from its strap that the lugs may fall out, dumping my camera and lens on the ground. Panasonic has hardly been fast or open in acknowledging this problem.

SteB said:

I was a bit disappointed that the newer cameras use the same basic form - is issues like like the lugs coming off (not to mention the paint quickly coming off buttons etc).

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It seems strap lugs on later versions of the GH1 are fastened in a different way to avoid this (I've seen images of the inside of older and newer GH1s). So this should be addressed in a new model like the G2. Also the GH1 had a new type of buttons compared to the G1, I've not heard reports of paint coming off GH1 buttons, only G1 buttons.

Not saying this couldn't have been handled better by Panasonic, but Canon bodies have had their problems too over the years. People buying up to four different 450Ds in different places and all misfocussing, having them turned in for adjustment several times until finally getting it sorted. Yet they refuse to include AF microadjustment on these models. Not to mention the AF problems on their pro bodies.

It would be nice if the Gh2 dropped in price because then I might consider that body. From what I'm reading though the G2 sounds like it might be the ticket. I'm hoping that the new kit lens is not too cheap. I tried the standard kit on the G1 and it seemed quite well made for a kit lens, and much more compact then the pictures suggest. In contrast Canon's kit lens seems much cheaper. What are the chances of a 20mm F.17 kit version of the G2?
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rogues-gallery/

I think you have the answer to your question -- it comes down to the enthusiast's tendency to want amazing new stuff rather than incremental improvement and refinement.

But one thing that may be getting lost in all this is that the leak appears to be quite shrewd. (Assuming of course that it was intentional, and I believe it was.)

People at Panasonic no doubt were well aware that this release was likely to be disappointing to enthusiasts and people who follow the rumour mill.

By getting the specs out there a few days before the official release, the chorus of disappointment will have largely worked itself out by the time of the release, and the coverage should be more solidly mainstream and positive.

Assuming the upgrades are solid despite being unspectacular -- ergonomics and build issues worked out, better DR and high ISO performance, useful and unobtrusive touchscreen implementation, better JPEG engine -- then hands-on previews from this site and others should leave a mainly positive impression with the mainstream consumers who really count.

Meanwhile, many of those who are inclined to disappointment have already done the bulk of their complaining.

Here's where the build quality issue goes. my first SLR was a Canon AE-1 bought with my frst software paycheck in 1980. It lasted for well over 20 years and its build quality was impeccable. The Canon S2 IS that replaced it failed within a year and a half (known BSOD problem, for which some, but not all, S2's were recalled)

The XSi and T1i (as well as the D5000) do not impress me with build quality. I've even seen some entry level DSLR's with metal-to-plastic lens mounts and such. Not good. The exterior plastic appears to have been molded to Fisher Price specifications. Not to mention the wobbliness of the kit lenses...

Going for better build involves a D90 which is the size of a coffee maker, or a 50D which is nearly 2 years old.

The Panasonic build quality is pretty good, I'd say better than the T1i, with only the lug and some early paint of buttons to worry about. All the same, I find it worrysome that we do not think long term - Cameras like the AE-1 or A-1 had a decade or more of useful life, now we're talking months? come on people...

The GF-1 which I have not seen so far in person should have Leica like quality for what is charged, let's hope it does. Can't anyone learn from the Canon G10 (even the G11 was 'cheapened' a bit...)

SLOtographer said:

Some people on the boards are very serious photogs who want pro or semi pro

cameras. It's just mild disappointment, perhaps coupled with a little exaggerated
disappointment (or lack of happy pills).

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Only because that gets one a sturdier body that has a chance to last till the next Iowa primary election

Same logic applies to phones. I can't stand the flimsy texting phones (Propel, etc) so the only way to a sturdy phone is a smartphone.

Can't Olympus drag the guy who did the OM-2 out of retirement to spec and design a similar build quality m43 camera?

I still have my AE-1 (which hasn't seen use for many many years though LOL).

I think why we don't think long term with the bodies is because no one is going to keep a digital body for longer term. I have a 4+ year old 5D (it was announced in Aug 05)--its still in very good shape body wise, but I expect it to need shutter replacement within the year---but--do I do that--or upgrade/replace??? (Shutter replacement is about $250--but will it be available?--probably this year, but probably not in the further future). Technologically usually each replacement body offers more than the one it replaces--and most people want the improvements.

I bought my first digital in 1999 I think--first DSLR in 2001--and have gone through a few bodies since then--with each one being 'better' for my needs than the previous. None have ever had any body/build problems with daily use. I don't really expect to keep my m4/3rds anywhere nearly as long if there are significant IQ improvments---body/build improvements won't win me over.

Diane
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic
G1 gallery http://www.pbase.com/picnic/temp_g1

mattmtl said:

I think you have the answer to your question -- it comes down to the enthusiast's tendency to want amazing new stuff rather than incremental improvement and refinement.

But one thing that may be getting lost in all this is that the leak appears to be quite shrewd. (Assuming of course that it was intentional, and I believe it was.)

People at Panasonic no doubt were well aware that this release was likely to be disappointing to enthusiasts and people who follow the rumour mill.

By getting the specs out there a few days before the official release, the chorus of disappointment will have largely worked itself out by the time of the release, and the coverage should be more solidly mainstream and positive.

Assuming the upgrades are solid despite being unspectacular -- ergonomics and build issues worked out, better DR and high ISO performance, useful and unobtrusive touchscreen implementation, better JPEG engine -- then hands-on previews from this site and others should leave a mainly positive impression with the mainstream consumers who really count.

Meanwhile, many of those who are inclined to disappointment have already done the bulk of their complaining.

Click to expand...

--From one of those humbled with dashed expectations and projections you couldn't have said it any better. Sure enough after less than 1 day of rukus, all is quiet on the western front.

Perhaps these for now incremental changes to existing G1 will make it more likely that we will get the new mini rangefinder body and revolutionary changes like electronic shutter many like myself are longing for. Pany appears to be sharing the low end to grow market share with Oly taking the mini (EPL1) and Pany the mini dSLR (G10) while with the G2 with large swivel screen and high res EVF, Pany can afford to go smaller with new higher end model in another body format in the future while continuing the G2 in the middle.

As noted in the specs G2 has new HD development engine so at minimum will have improvements gained from GH1 and possibly more only lacking the multiformat sensor or 1080P HD. The latter is not a disadvantage as 1080P/30 apparently takes two thirds more of valuable limited memory space than 720P/60 which is faster, smoother, and your eyes probably couldn't see the resolution difference unless using a TV screen larger than 40".

At least now for awhile I won't staying up late or rushing to get up at 6 am to see if there has been any new rumor or news posted!

p185 of the US manual for the GH1 has max 4 to 8hrs recording using AVCHD on a 32GB card, depending on size & quality. And 2 to 16hrs using MPEG.

And 64GB SDHC cards en route.

Do those limits really count as limited?

John Bunney